EO,

Big celebration on H finding a local job. What a blessing.

I don't see where you really came into the prority picture in relating your recent experience with this guy. I saw your concern for H's reaction...and the guy's reaction...what I didn't hear clearly is that you matter. Your own protection matters.

I understand. I do. Your half of the marital boundary is to guard your own influences...choose what you will or will not allow. You're making a great choice to not take any next-time call, no meeting GF, etc. Why? Because you know yourself...sounds like you know you could take refuge in your own mind, maybe distract, leading to thoughts of comparison, judgment, what ifs and if onlys...

And maybe not.

And it seems like a process to me, too. First, we realize we have/need boundaries; then we figure out which ones; then we learn to enforce them around ourselves; and then maybe the step of making them known to others...which gives a near-final nail into the self-image over self coffin?

What do you think?

Your friends will love who you are...they already do. They wouldn't love knowing they were doing something potentially dangerous to you and you let them. Real friends do not encourage your destructive self-image...they encourage your real self.

Unless you lie to them by omission.

When we state to others, something in us is affirmed, correct? Like claiming ourselves aloud...not stating can also be invalidating, I think.

You're worth every word, EO. Highest honesty could mean saying, "No, thank you" about taking his number. And smiling. Even, "I had to give up other men." and wink. Laugh. You're safe. You have your boundaries around you.

When you say, "Nothing personal" and he tells you about his life, and shares his writing, do you mean nothing said directly to you, about you, from him? Because it's personal...and I know you know it.

Thank you for sharing here, for better or worse, EO.

LA

What I forgot to say, was that he told his supervisor, no travel, I mean it this time. It was huge, to see him choose that boundary. And then call me and assure me it was a joint decision, no resentments.

The day after I didn't protect either of us. Expecting myself to be able to handle something that I could not.


I meant I didn't share my personal feelings out loud. He asked how we are doing. There was so much that I wanted to share about this journey. He was the main person I shared everything with for years. All I said was, we celebrated 12 years last July! Tried not to take it personal. But yes, it was personal. So many things still remind me of him. Reading those stories, including shared memories. The phone call, hearing his voice, the cadence, the rhythm of his voice. Which is why it's really clear to me not to take any more calls/emails.


Thanks, LA, I think I can come clean next time. A good way to practice highest honesty.

I can see what my old friend was trying to do. That now that he has a girlfriend, we could be all be couple friends together. That H would no longer see him as a threat. Part of me wonders if I should feel angry at him, that he should know how painful this could be for H and I. But the O&H would be way too personal, I need my boundaries much further out than that.


I'm trying to take this beyond damage control, to use this to find ways to deal with these thoughts that will likely come back again at unexpected times, like they always have. The comparison one is the easiest to get past. These were separate times in my life. There was a lot of good that came from those times. The same way that I had such joy from being in his presence, it reminds me how grateful I am for H's presence today. For all the joys of today. Last night, we went over to the neighbors with the kids, watching all the kids play and laugh. Nothing to mourn. I can enjoy today.

EO,

You know what I hear? That you know you are capable of deep sharing when the other party is safe for you. I hear you know and have been actively working on your own fear...your half.

Funny thing about fear...the more we really see, feel, taste and touch our own, the more reactive we can feel, even though it's the only way I know of to see our own reality clearly.

When you decided to not have contact again with this guy, did your fear drop? It's a great signal...I believe it's tied into our levels of self-deception. When we decide something on the surface and holdback underneath, the signal continues a little bit, maybe at a lower level. Just information, not judgment.

So if your fear fell away when you said, "You know what? Contact isn't good for my marriage, my highest priority to my own heart and soul" then you're understanding how much boundaries reduce our fear. Doesn't mean you solved your marriage...you enforced a boundary around yourself. You embraced a vulnerability...and held yourself, lovingly.

I struggle, too, EO. Please know that. I had the expectation that if I chose my thoughts, stayed aware and present, I would be totally protected in my life. I reap many benefits every minute for these choices...doesn't make it smooth, perfect, protected. Why not? Well, because in my adult experience, we are dynamic beings and God doesn't stop reaching, offering. Good for me to know the lure of seeming absolute acceptance, appreciation, admiration, attention remains for me...not because I'm broken or wrong...because I'm still coming into my own self and learning.

We see others as giving us permission to be ourselves. The great attraction. It's not real or true. Only we can permit or not permit. Give yourself permission to be all of who you are, right now, with your H. You can share all of yourself...not based on his reaction. You know this...and you have come so much more into the present, flipping your perceptions over, and are reaping, also, what present awareness and acceptance of what is has for you, right now.

Way to go...I don't believe comparison would have been the easiest to get past without that, do you? What you're seeing is deeper, from your own perspective...and that's your own self-discovery at work...you retraining your brain...THIS is what I want.

Wanna talk about how you were reactive the day after your H fought for something for your marriage? He stood for your marriage...and the next day, you didn't protect. What if there's a link there? What if there's a pattern, a delayed reaction, because his choice was such a different step in your dance?

Did you know we have to prepare ourselves for abundance? When our patterns, our steps, change, and our expectations do not really change, then we hear the same music and not notice the new steps...which is like not accepting them?

Lastly...do you often wonder what you should or should not feel?

You can speak of your deep appreciation, fear, passion, resistance...anything in you...and not pave the way to be taken advantage of, robbed or manipulated. You change your experience through your intent...if you share to truly just share, not to give/get/control...then you cannot be taken advantage of, robbed or manipulated.

God's design remains stunning to me...more and more. On the other thread, what I'd shared before was used in just this manner...and it didn't hit me. For the first time. Through this I realized fully that what I share is not ammunition...it's me, following my human mandate to know and be known...so I can know God completely and my own completeness. I heard and felt the fear behind the discrediting and I got the reward through the challenge. More abundance. I feel a little overwhelmed with shock.

Connecting and growing through conflict...come with me on this journey, EO. I had no idea...with this conflict on MB, I wouldn't have learned how much I manipulated through proving I'm a victim, taking the weak, the inferior stance was as manipulative and conniving as a dominant one, though less obvious to me.

Pain doesn't win anything...it's in the one who chooses to bully and the other who chooses to be bullied. Each believe their cause is righteous...and somewhere in the middle, there's connection, growth, understanding and freedom. Who has the more pain isn't real...doesn't tell you which is right or wrong...tells you both are human, they bleed, struggle, believe. And they both choose to interact. There's the constant blessing, the gift.

Can you, EO, see where each time you choose to interact, you're a gift to yourself and others? Can you let go the outcome...own both where you crossed your boundaries and where you were brave and interacted? Find your lures...they come from old fears...and see if you can not fear your H, his stuff, as you "automatically" felt with this other guy?

I don't believe in damage control (the way I hear it)...I believe in knowledge of self we know our power. Choosing our thoughts is potent...what determines our life experience...so we don't empower thoughts to just come back...we examine why our brains are handing us those thoughts...find the scent of repetition, false comfort...distraction. We love ourselves so much, want to soothe, control, smooth over and avoid. Naturally so. Know you love yourself and you're changing how your brain soothes...with reality instead of those pesky what ifs and if onlys...which was my experience. Is my experience. So we can heal, not smooth ourselves over.

Boundaries are as dynamic as people...heed them in the present. Setting them doesn't set us for life. Good to know.

LA

I hear you, that we own whether or not we are safe to share. We own our own safety. I know part of this is to get mne stronger in O&H too, with H, too. I am so scared to hurt him. He says my actions did not hurt him. I need to take him at his word. But my sharing, my O&H, that may hurt, though it is not about him. He is leaving for another trip next weekend, and I don't know if he'll see this as retaliation. But I will share, anyhow. It's usually never as bad for either of us as I fear.

Hi EO.

I have lots of guy friends from the past. Most of which are not a problem.

But there is one--and I will always love him. Always.

Doesn't mean I love my husband less, but it's tricky to explain to anyone.

Who can understand (unless it's MB people) "Yeah, 18 years later, I still love this guy."

So I can't talk to him. Not that my husband understands or would understand the threat. Only I really understand how easy it is for my thoughts to go to the place where I'm emotional about this person.

I find I'm mostly tempted to think about him when things are rough with my husband. When things are good, I don't feel so tempted.

there are still some songs that I can't listen to, they so deeply connect me to him.

That may never change for me on this side of heaven. And I know better than to tempt it.

Tell the guy if he calls again that you can't talk to him.

((((EO)))))

Telly, I forgot to thank you for your post, it really helped me this weekend. I really feel good about my NC decision now. And I think the experience years ago, the ability to live a one-sided love and still be happy, was really important for me, to be able to hang in there with H when he isn't up to being responsive.

"I find I'm mostly tempted to think about him when things are rough with my husband."

H and my old friend are really similar in a lot of ways, similar issues to work through, so when I thought about him when things were rough with H, it just depressed me so much deeper. Because H and I can work through things together, but my friend was left to deal with his issues alone. I couldn't have known, but he wound up hospitalized for a time. I had to get out of his life I think, for him to get the help he needed. It wasn't good for him having a friend like me, telling him everything was okay, while he was making self-destructive choices. Very invalidating. I am glad that I am learning to be O&H with my H, instead of feeding denial there.

It affirms me in my choices now to see how the choices I made back then, about NC, were for the best.

Good news, I got an offer to start a new position a week from Monday. It sounds very challenging, in a good way; it's in the next town over, just 10-15 minutes from my house; and the pay is better than what I made at the last place. I'm so excited!

Here's my plan to continue to save my marriage. I think I may need some fine tuning, though, so any thoughts are appreciated.

(1) Rule of Care - I think H and both are happy with my progress with the meeting ENs. I'm in a really good routine with exercise, healthy eating, and DS. The O&H, validating, and listen and repeat are really getting to be easy tools to lean on. H needed some time off from me initiating SF, but now we're both good there, both feeling free to initiate, and both okay when the answer is no. I am so happy he has also been working on my main ENs, affection and admiration, too. I have been snuggling him when I pass him in the house, and he really responds. It gives me butterflies all over again <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

(2) Rule of Protection - Continue watching out for those sneaky LBs - DJs, AOs. I'm done with the SDs, focusing on negotiation instead.

Right now, though, H considers my Alanon meetings IB. I go once a week, but really there are two that I'd like to go to weekly. They are at 8:30, so we have all the work done with the kids before I go unless DD11 is still working on homework. He even has started telling the kids that I am going on a date, which I think they know is a joke. There are meetings that have Alateen meetings for the kids at the same time, so I suggested that as a way for H to know that I am where I say I am, but he thinks it's a "cult" and doesn't want me to bring DD11. I also tell H where the meetings are, and if he drove by, my car is there. I have also welcomed him to join me, and he gave it a shot, but it wasn't his thing. So I would welcome other suggestions for POJA on this one. He's okay when I'm in the house reading or working on 12 step writing activities. But I firmly believe that going to the meetings IRL is key for me and our marriage.

I still need to negotiate with H about his LBing as well. Now that I have a job and finances are not an issue, I want to suggest the MB Weekend down here next month.

(3) Rule of Honesty - I feel safe now bringing my O&H into the marriage, and I think I'm out of denial about some of the things that were keeping us back. I think H has been more open about some things he has been evasive about in the past, but don't really know. I think this will fall into place when we get more of a handle on the IB. I am okay with where we are today.

(4) Rule of Time - We're getting a lot closer than I could have imagined to hitting the mark here. Evenings don't work, as H wants alone time then, but we have had good success spending time together in the mornings, and periodic date nights. I'd estimate we spend almost an hour weekday mornings, and two hours weekend mornings, a half an hour on the phone weekdays, so the weeks we have a date night of 3 hours, that is 15 hours <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wow ears, things are sounding so great for you! I'm very happy for you. And I'm truly inspired by your ability to work on your own actions instead of blaming/trying to change your H.

Sorry I haven't been around much, we are back in the US and school has started and I am totally swamped already. BUT... I'm shining my sink!!!!! Thanks to you sending me to FlyLady!!! I've never before been this good at meeting H's EN for DS!

Congrats on your new job, and on the awesome progress with your marriage!

Thanks, Jayne! I fight change mightily. So when H and I turned very early on from nice happy people to bitter vengeful ones, it seemed to clear to me that the answer was to fight H's fog until he 'wised up' and went back to being the guy I thought I was marrying. Reading on GQII, makes it so much more clear about this fog that we both created that tells us to hurt the ones we love. I am so happy that I found other options! Gotta admit, though, that I still find myself thinking those old thoughts under duress, so I'm glad I have support to help me see that.

I know that there may be limits to how far I can get with the MB plan in my marriage, because addiction is a more powerful reinforcement than getting ENs met. But we haven't gotten stagnant yet, and following these ideas as far as they'll take me will give me the best chance at keeping the marriage an attractive option to him. As well as it's a great plan to live <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm glad you like FlyLady, I think her messages go really well with MB:
* setting the example in love
* finding solutions that work for you instead of being stuck on the "right" way to do something
* Finally loving yourself instead of waiting for someone else to do it

Jayne, thanks for posting even when you're swamped, and thanks for the brief update. I look forward to hearing more <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

EO,

I want to apologize for disappearing again! I was fully intending to check in with you guys more often and then grad school started and I am drowning! Well, it's not that bad, but the last 4 weeks have been nuts for me. So sorry I haven't been around.

Yes, that article you mentioned (the one about saying no!) sounds like a good one for me! I can email Symphony, or if you don't mind you can email me at h-t-b-h at hotmail dot com.

Thanks so much for sharing about your old friend (and to Telly, too, for sharing about hers). BTDT for me, too, so I really appreciate hearing from other people who've been through the same thing.

Congrats on the jobs, for both you and H! Sounds like that is working out well.

I'm going to do my best to stick around more!

Hugs,
Happy

Happy, I lost my post again. I went into a long discussion on where things are today and how I feel unsafe thinking that I haven't been proactive enough protecting our marriage from his IB. I think I can share my suggestions and POJA a plan we're both good with.

H did travel out of state again, just this week he says. The glaring thing that finally got to me was when I called last night at 9:45, he was still at the office and a woman was giggling in the background when he answered the phone. Well, at least he answered the phone. But I was dead wrong thinking any of this stuff was okay, even for a week, for our marriage, him travelling and staying in the same hotel as work colleagues. I don't post this to bash him but to show myself how much denial that I carry that things will be okay at the pace they're going. No, I am going to be more proactive about giving us the best chance possible.

I'm sorry things have been so nuts! This, too, shall pass. I'll get that article over to you in the morning.

It's funny you mention the old friend thing. I feel much better after all this time. This morning, it actually crossed my mind at first to call my old friend and ask him to call my H. To tell him man to man what a special person H has and not to forget it. Well, that would have been an awful idea for so many reasons, so I quickly pushed it aside.

Oooh, I hate it when I lost my posts! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Hm, I wonder what you mean by you haven't been proactive enough in protecting the marriage from HIS IB.. How can you protect anything from something HE does? (Not trying to be facetious, just wondering if you know something I don't know)

My H hasn't traveled much lately either but he has to be away overnight next week, and now they're wanting him to be gone 2 or even 3 nights and I'm starting to get really upset about it. I HATE it when he's gone overnight. HATE HATE HATE it. OK enough about me. I totally get why you would be upset about his travel, though. Esp if there's a woman giggling in the background when you call him! Yikes.

What are you going to do about it?

Interesting that you thought of calling your friend and trying to have him push on H for you -- and KUDOS that you didn't do it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Something I read earlier and wanted to mention -- about your H saying something about how if you two get divorced you'll have even less help with the kids. Like that's a free pass for him to do whatever he wants because at least it's better than getting divorced. Is that how you took it? What do you think about it?

My H will sometimes say, "Well, at least I don't do what so-and-so does" like that erases the stuff he DOES do that I don't like. LOL. I'm not buying it! LOL.

Hope you're having a wonderful Friday!
Happy

{{{{{EO}}}}}

I sure hope the woman giggling in the background doesn't mean anything. Were there other voices too, other people in the room? Hope so.

I'm trying to think of something helpful to say, so please don't get upset if this wouldn't be helpful, it's just a thought- would it help if you asked him to give you a quick call to say goodnight as the very last thing before he goes to sleep, after he's already in bed alone?

You were wise to resist the temptation to call your old friend. I've got my own "old friend" story, maybe I'll tell it on my own thread. No useful advice in it, no more action to be taken, no wise lesson, just a rather different kind of a story.

The plan you posted on 09/17, with the Rules of Protection, etc., sounds good. You mention IB there also, as in H thinks your attending Alanon mtgs is IB. I'm with you in thinking that is a necessary self-care item for you. I wonder if it will help you POJA if you keep in mind what he thinks is your IB. Could he feel threatened by you attending those mtgs? Or could he be saying that as a way to justify his IB? Just some thoughts.

Is he back from his trip yet?

Happy


I don't think I've stressed to H enough the urgency that we negotiate and develop a plan to deal with his IB and DJs. If we can't negotiate a resolution ourselves, I need to get more proactive about getting outside help. Our MC was in CA, and when we came back to our hometown, we didn't go back to our one here, because I didn't find his advice consistent with the MB plan.



How do you explain this to your H? I tell H I feel insignificant, erased. Like this life we create here doesn't compare in his eyes to his travel, or why would he keep going? So far he thinks it's that I am making a big deal about nothing.


I told him that's it. No more work travel. No more buddy trips without me. He says that the problem is my insecurity
and my jealousy. I don't know what this lack of compassion is about, but we need to figure out how to remove this roadblock.


I'm glad you pointed that out, because I didn't catch it. To me is was just another disconnect.


jayne


No. H went up with his supervisor, a single woman in a long term relationship with another colleague of theirs. They flew up and back together, shared a car all week, and stayed at the same hotel in different rooms. I have met her, but still I think that this is failing to protect our marriage to set things up like this.


That would have been a great idea. But I'm very certain that the best action to take would be no more future trips.

Thanks both of you for the kudos. My old friend calling H would have created more problems with little chance of helping. My old friend thinks we don't have any issues, and it's best to maintain NC. Actually, he did send me an email Friday, so I am thinking of an NC letter to send back, like this:

"You are a great person, and I am very thankful for the friendship we had. It has helped shape who I am in many ways. I am glad to hear that things are going so well with you, and it was very interesting reading your writing. You have such a gift with that.

H is fine with us rekindling our friendship, but I have found these last few weeks that I am not okay with it as I thought I would be. I found I still have old feelings. I wish I could change that, but I have not been able to change how I feel. I can only change my actions.

Maybe that doesn't make a lot of sense to you. I ask you to put yourself in my shoes. If our friend M called you, and you guys talked, it would be great, no hard feelings. But then imagine if our friend N called you, with the best of intentions. It would still be painful for you, and seeing that you still had those old feelings, it would be painful for her and your GF as well. Better off to let your friendship with N stay in the past, where remembering makes you happy instead of sad.

So I won't be contacting you anymore, not because I don't value your friendship, because I do. But because I feel really sure that this is the best way to protect myself and my marriage and our friendship. I trust that you will respect my wishes and not contact me any more either."


Thanks for the validation! I am even more sure in knowing that I need to keep going; it provides support and accountibility. He says that it is a cult group for lonely people. He doesn't believe me that I find therapeutic value in it.

Thank goodness he's back.

Thank you both so much for your presence; I know your time is limited. You guys really help keep me grounded and give me the sense that I'm okay for feeling this way. Enjoy your weekend!

((((Group hug))))

Hey E_O. I was reading your post and a couple of things stuck out at me. Hope you don't mind me adding my .02 cents here.



To me, I hear that it HAS to be one or the other. That you see it as if he likes travelling then he dislikes being home? That there is no room to actually enjoy both. Is it not possible to enjoy travelling and still like his home? Does it have to be a comparison of the two? What if he had to travel for work, would it still be a comparison? My dh has to work nights every other month. On those nights he leaves the house at 5:15 p.m. and doesn't get home until 630 a.m. I don't for a minute believe that he chooses it to stay away from home or that we don't compare to work.

Maybe your dh does enjoy travelling, the time away from you and the kids and home. I know I enjoy time like that. Doesn't meanI like it more or dislike home.



What happened to POJA? What if he came and told you absolutely NO MORE Meetings? I believe he said he didn't like you going to those. Maybe that's a negotiation point. Or a way for you to look at it from the other side. Noone likes being told what they are or aren't going to do. Remember, set your boundaries,don't try to control his behavior.

I know I'm not around much at all anymore. Life has me very very busy. I read over your thread today and it really struck me. Probably because dh and I are struggling over time spent home and together.

BTE, thanks for weighing in. Maybe you can help me make sense of this then.


My H doesn't have to accept jobs that require travel. He's been consulting for years now, making a good income. He doesn't owe any specific schedule to any client. He can turn down work for one client and work for another instead. So he CHOSE to accept the last travel assignment. After telling me he was done with them many times.

I hear you that someone could like travel and like being home. Still, choosing to be away is a choice not to be home. BTE, we have kids, and it all falls on me when he's not here. I find it unacceptable for him to shirk his responsibility to share in raising them.

My aim isn't to control his behavior. I just don't want this life any more, shoved off in a corner. Taking care of the kids alone, blindly hoping I'm not being lied to. That's building resentment. That's not standing up for our marriage.

I have tried POJAing on this. When he said he took a one week assignment, I said I would try it. He said he was going to call the kids every day, which he did. But I was not okay. The kids weren't okay. Our marriage was not okay. If he wants some kind of just compensation for giving up the work travel, I'm willing to negotiate that. Like I could take on some additional responsibility in the house so it would feel more like a getaway to him here. But I don't believe a spouse is entitled to engage in behavior like overnight travel that Dr. Harley says weakens marriages and is to be avoided even if it's at great cost.

BTE, thanks for your post last night. Reading it back this morning, I think I understand you a lot better. That taking H's choice to travel as a rejection of our home life may not be accurate at all. I usually know that. That someone else's choices are about them, not about me or our kids. Not a slam on any of us.

As an example, my girls each slept over a friend's house Friday night. The reason we set that up was not that we don't like being around the girls. I love being around them. But that doesn't mean they should miss out on sleepovers, a fun experience for them at their age.

BTE, I think our situations have some similarities, except that your H has more to lose in his career in not being flexible in his schedule. My H was in that situation for years, too, where he had to be flexible, but he's paid his dues now and beyond that. Your H will have more flexibility down the road, too, right?

But I see the similarity in that your H's schedule creates a situation where he has a lot of lonely time where calling the OW looks attractive. If he was working a more traditional schedule, the same level of temptation would not be there, long stretches night after night of severe loneliness and no one to talk to. Because I presume you are like most of us, you need to sleep at night to do all that you do all day.

Yes, BTE, I agree with you that we need to POJA this issue. I think the POJA process does include taking options off the table that have beeen tried and don't work. I have already tried for many years the option of long-term travel, shorter-term travel. Those are no longer options on the table.

Been there done that! And the trip you describe, just the two of them in the same car and the same hotel (even if different rooms) is just asking for trouble. It also concerns me that alcohol may be involved. And you say that he no longer is compelled to take these trips to further his career - he's already paid his dues. I totally agree that his taking these trips are endangering the marriage - putting him in the path of temptation, and (even if he doesn't give in to temptation) not protecting or respecting your feelings.

But, given that, what do you do? You cannot force him to do anything, you can only control your own actions. I don't know, will he agree to no more such trips? And will he honor that agreement? If so, that's great! But if not...

Are you saying that you are considering an ultimatum? From your earlier posts, I didn't get the sense that you were at that point in your M. But from what you say about this trip, I could see how you might be at that point now. I don't know, I'm not there. Just make sure you've thought it through, if that's what you are going to do.

So, if he says he has another trip to take, do you have a way to complete this sentence: "This is how I feel about you going on this trip, and if you go, this is what I will do."

I get the sense that he is not into POJA, right? It's more along the lines of, you trying to come up with an agreement that will end up being a POJA for both of you?

I guess technically, according to POJA, if he's against Alanon then you are supposed to stop going... but I don't think you should stop going. Is there something that would be a POJA compromise or something? I'm not good at applying POJA yet, to the difficult questions.

But I keep coming back to thinking about you not wanting him to go on trips, and him not wanting you to go to Alanon. Sure, I would say the best thing for your M is for him to not go, but for you to go. But that wouldn't be POJA.

Maybe he won't make the connection between the two situations. But if he does, can you think of a POJA? I'm trying to brainstorm for you, and I got nuthin so far.

By the way, the letter you describe, to send to your old friend, sounds really good.

(I read it right before going to sleep, I fell asleep before I could reply. But it seems to me I dreamed about your letter! Gosh I hope I didn't talk in my sleep, who know what my H would've thought!)