“I start out with a bias against working overtime because of what I saw with my parents. My dad always worked a lot of overtime, for FS I would assume. Then he had an affair with a coworker, and left us, divorced my mom, and complained about how he and his new wife couldn't live off of their salaries because of the HUGE burden of paying child support. As if I should feel so bad that HE had consequences for his horrible decisions. And he didn't even send us enough to keep us from struggling really badly.”

I can understand why you would resent his overtime in light of this information. This is rough. At the same time, as you know, it is dangerous to hold your H accountable for your dad’s actions. Two separate people, two separate intentions. Have you discussed this issue with your H in the past? Does he understand how your experience with your dad effects your attitude towards overtime? Does he make a point to share some special time with you each week?

“Similarly, my H's overtime has always eroded our family time. I resent it. We're not struggling for cash in my mind. I unbderstand that he is feeling internal pressure to earn more, and I respect that he feels that way.”

I just wonder how much of this is due to the fact that some of his EN are getting met through work, and if you are able to change your thinking/attitude about it, how it would in turn effect his attitude about overtime. Would you be willing to “fake it til you make it” for a while and see what effect it has on his behavior?

“Wonderin, your post got me thinking about how it is legitimate for H to have a FS need that's higher than mine.”

Has he ever explained what his FS needs are?

“I'm not sure how to make amends and undo that situation where I set him up like that. I am so happy to be home; and I don't know how to muster the enthusiasm to want to move out there. But I think it would make him so sad if I said even if he got a great job out there, that I still wouldn't prefer to move. It's not my problem to solve, but I do want to stop contributing to it.”

Is it good to NOT tell your H you aren’t enthusiastic about moving even if he gets a job in CA? What would you do if he DOES get a job there? It may be best to be as O&H as you can sooner rather than later. I bet he would really resent you’re not telling him until the opportunity to move arises. Better he have all the facts in advance, unless you are willing to move if he can find a job. I’m sure you can think of a respectful way to bring it up…something like:
The girls and I were talking about how much we love this town, honey. It got me thinking about what we would miss should you find work in CA. I’m not sure I can give it all up.

I hope this post doesn’t seem discouraging. I’m not sure I presented my ideas effectively, but I do have good intentions! I wish you the best EO!

Hmm, that's unfortunate that you said you'd be willing to give CA another shot if H got a secure job out there, but now aren't wanting to do that. Have your feelings changed, or become more clear?

Often, for me, when I "decide" something I get depressed about the decision. Sometimes I take that to mean I want to change my mind. Sometimes I figure it's "buyer's remorse" and I'd feel that way either way. For example: I might get depressed over the prospect of leaving the security of family and friends in Fla., AND get depressed over thinking about missed opportunities and denying H his dream, if we *don't* go to CA. Could any of this be going on with you?

I think planning to wait is a good idea here; see what happens with H's work, it may not be an issue; if it is, then make sure you understand your own feelings before saying something that H may hear as a bad thing (SD? You going back on a promise?). Of course H&O is called for; just make sure you are H&O with yourself before unnecessarily upsetting H. If that makes sense, it's just my gut feeling.

Amends, what a wonderful new (to me) concept! Much more to it than just an apology!

I'm surprised the MC thought 15 hours / week was unreasonable. That could be just one hour / evening MTWTh (4 hours) plus maybe a "date night" of 2 hours Friday, plus 5 hours Sat. and 4 hours Sun., or vice versa... We probably don't achieve that, but it sure seems like a good idea to me.

Hmm, I just went back to review the 15 hour policy. I see it's supposed to be more evenly distributed than I just said. I also hadn't noticed that time when kids are around doesn't count, and time watching a movie doesn't count either. I guess we are even farther away from that than I thought.

If your H doesn't agree with 15 hours, would he agree to something less? You gotta start somewhere, eh? <---Canadian accent Is there some activity that would qualify as Undivided Attention, that he would enjoy and wouldn't see as needy?

I'm glad he's agreeable about your Wednesday meetings. Great POJAing about DD11!

I should preface this by saying that H and his crew met last night's deadline, so for now the pressure is off. He's back on his low-stress usual assignment, where they already know he walks on water, and he has nothing to prove.

"it is dangerous to hold your H accountable for your dad’s actions. Two separate people, two separate intentions. Have you discussed this issue with your H in the past?"

I don't hold H accountable for what my Dad did, just trying to say that the trial and error I did before I got here showed me already that this is a sure path to failure. Then I was validated by what I read here, about UA and family support taking precedence over work time. If it's roughly 2 hours a day for UA and family time each, then someone could still fit in working from 7 am to 6pm daily, then have 6 to 8 for family time and 8 to 10 for UA time. That's a 13 hour day, if that is the priority over having other interests.

But H and I have talked about this; I've asked specifically to be involved in the decisions that encroach on our time. I like Dr. harley's suggestion, to take time Sunday and plan the week out. H lets me know at the beginning of the week if he anticipates any stumbling blocks during the week, and that does make it easier to plan.


"Does he understand how your experience with your dad effects your attitude towards overtime?"

Thanks so much for reasoning this out with me, it does make it fall into place more clearly. I think I have been able to communicate this; I do feel heard.

"Does he make a point to share some special time with you each week?"
Not each week, but again, I do feel heard about this. When I got here, I didn't feel like H heard me at all about this. I felt ridiculed. I am glad that I don't feel that way anymore.

"I just wonder how much of this is due to the fact that some of his EN are getting met through work, and if you are able to change your thinking/attitude about it, how it would in turn effect his attitude about overtime. Would you be willing to “fake it til you make it” for a while and see what effect it has on his behavior?"

At Alanon, we have a saying, "Changed attitudes may aid recovery", and I have seen how true this can be in many things. H does get some of his ENs met through work. There are lots of things that I do admire about him, and many times of the year that his work isn't taking over his life where I do talk to him about work with a good attitude. I hear you with the thoughtful request that I take a different tack on the overtime for a bit and see what happens there. Let me think on that one.

I felt bad thinking that he was enthusiastic about finding time in the evening to spend on work when it was crunch time, but is not willing to set aside time for me when it's not crunch time. I know those types of comparisons are false. I will try to reason this out with him to try to get a better understanding.

"Has he ever explained what his FS needs are? "

Yes, he's behind in his retirement savings because of investment decisions he made before and after we married. Wonderin, when I mentioned not being able to help your H with his consequences, I don't know what they will be specifically, but this is what I meant in general. I can't fix that, earn fast enough to make up this deficit. H was not willing to come to a joint decision when I asked him to put his retirement saving into a mixture of safer and riskier investments, instead of putting it all into riskier investments. Because it was "his" money.

"What would you do if he DOES get a job there?"
I would grin and bear it. I have beent O&H about that. Where I feel like my views ceate a problem is that I would be willing to consider moving if he does get a good offer out there, or wanted to start a business there. But I would no longer be willing to move out there with no source of income lined up. So my view creates a pressure on him to work his career differently than he otherwise might, if I didn't have that condition. That pressure is his to shoulder alone. But I wonder if there a different way that I could honestly look at this that doesn't influence his career decisions in this way.

Jayne, I hope I clarified better how I feel about moving. About the 15 hours, I hadn't approached it as 15 hours since the time I got shot down, more like RC. "Would you like to go for a nice long walk?" "I'd like to call the sitter and have her come Saturday so we could go to out dinner/ How do you feel about that?" But I agree, I could ask him to help me plan more time together, and discuss a goal.

And thanks for the kind words! I'm encouraged by H's being willing to look at things from a POJA perspective, too!

What a relief that H will be more relaxed for a while! I will cross fingers that you will get some good time just the two of you in the next few weeks.

"I've asked specifically to be involved in the decisions that encroach on our time. I like Dr. harley's suggestion, to take time Sunday and plan the week out."

What a great idea! I like your proactive approach to this, EO.

"I felt bad thinking that he was enthusiastic about finding time in the evening to spend on work when it was crunch time, but is not willing to set aside time for me when it's not crunch time."

I can realate to this. This is exactly what I felt like when H would get home from a trip and instantly head out the door for some type of recreation with his buddies. But, I did find that when I stopped complaining about it and chose instead to support him in little ways (like saying "have a nice time!" or "don't forget your water bottle" or "beat 'em bad this time!") he started showing more consideration. He would ask, "do you mind if I play tennis today?" or "When would be the most convenient time for me to meet the guys for basetball this week?" He still took some time to do the things he enjoys, but he stopped doing it the second he came home and I found it didn't bother me as much. I guess I'm learning that checking my attitude and changing the way I look at certain things gets better results than anything I've tried this far. I hope you don't feel like I'm picking on you, EO. I just want to try to offer some new ideas if I can.

wonderin, I read a book called "Hold on to your NUTS" (for men) that is kind of along this vein. It says pick those things that you feel you must have (like ENs, but not quite), agree with your spouse on what they are, and then never compromise with them. For instance, if playing basketball once a week is guy's way to connect with his friends and is really important, he and the wife would agree that it is so; therefore, she will not resent the time spent every week; the benefit is that, since she is not ragging on him about going, he is not stressed about trying to get to go, and therefore feels more...generous...about doing other things that might be important to her, like attending a ballet recital or fixing a door. It keeps the resentment from creeping in.

Being around people like you all on the board has been so interesting for me that way. Loving the person, even when I dislike the behavior. It is so freeing and it feels so much more honest on a gut level. For me it been really helpful to trace back why these new attitudes are difficult to adopt in some areas. I think it is control, and I was really suprised when I suggested that possibility to myself and find that it fits. I thought I had that Control Beast excavated from my life! What is HE doing here?

Do you know what's wierd? When I found these beasts, they have been a struggle to get rid of. But naming this guy, I felt my anxiety about it melt away. I have a hammer for this nail. H's schedule isn't mine to own. I can share my O&H and get back to my happy life.

My H is so different from how I'm wired. He doesn't hold any grudge against me for when I was less than supportinve. I was plenty supportive with my actions, like taking the kids out so he could have quiet to work, and helping him debug some issues, but not my attitude. I found something else: I was meeting ENs in the way that I was enthusiastic about. I like taking the kids out. I like the DS that I'm doing. I like the problem-solving that he asked me to look at his spreadsheet. So even though my attitude wasn't consistent, I was still free to help in ways I am enthusiastic about.

I met with my IC, and he gave me an evaluation, and he found that I'm not depressed, and gave me the okay to start weaning off the Wellbutrin. I met with him in 2001, and the reason I stopped going to him was that I felt that everything was really awful and he didn't "get" me about how unlivable it was. LA, it's so funny, that quality, his confidence that I was going to be okay, that I couldn't stand back then, is the same thing I love about you all, today. I was having so much fun during the session; I clicked with him in such a good way this time. I feel like a totally different person. Where before I thought he didn't understand me, now, when I ask him to clarify what he says, he totally got where I was coming from, I just didn't hear it.

LA, like when I first got here frustrated how mean my H was, (not seeing how mean I was to myself and him) and you asked me, how's my self-care? I thought you must not know what it's like to live with someone being mean to suggest something like that. Now I see how that self-care gave me the foundation and grounding I needed.

ears, thanks so much for sharing. I feel like this is what I need to hear, too.

EO,

About your doctor...I heard you saying that his belief in you, his confidence you would be okay at the beginning was an annoyance...and that really resonated in me. I remember hearing others' beliefs like that and they felt like pressure in me...an expectation...a must do.

I had to become okay or let them down.

Is that what you were saying? And this time back...you heard his opinion, his belief in you...not an assignment, a pressure?

And the difference between then and now is...you believe in you, too...you know you've got skills, tools, choices. You can choose to be okay.

And you didn't know that then, did ya?

Am I close?

Now about your question...mean...hmmm...yes, mockery is mean...it's cruel. Mean isn't resonating to me...feels hidden away, like I haven't thought, sought out, discovered all the mean. Cruel yes, mean, no.

Gaslighting in gloved hands...yeah. I remember my mother saying I sounded sick on the phone...when I felt fine...and I would shortly after the call become sick.

That's what came to mind in sorting through "mean". Something in there with DH...when he'd withhold, withhold, until I blew and then say, "Oh yeah. I forgot to tell you. Yeah, I did that, just like you wanted."

Then I was the mean one.

Self-care...am I doing it for myself before I ask for it from others...my part, my power. Not all..or nothing. Am I caring for myself? Can I see myself separate from others?

I can't draw a bead on this...I know rejection...not sure about mean. How 'bout that?

And yes, MsCurvesEO...I went to the gym last night. I'm going to post about it on Rock's thread. LOL. I wanna be like you when I grow up.

(I'm exceedingly inspired by you, toots.)

LA

Thanks, jayne <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I forgot to ask on cat's thread, how do you respond when someone criticizes your H? I've been figuring things out as I come across them, but I don't think I've come across that yet, someone criticizing him. So I don't have that figured out. For me, I'd listen and repeat, but should I defend my H in public, too? Or is that taking it on my shoulders when it's not mine to own. I think that if someone's criticizing him in front of me, then I do have a piece to respond to. I can defend the person while leaving the part about the behavior his to own, I think.

LA, I think this time it's different not just or even primarily because I agree with him. But because it's his perspective to own. Lots of people think that I "should" be able to do lots of things. I can choose to borrow others' confidence in me when I need confidence. To hold onto that. But that remains a choice.

Mean, to me, is spiteful behavior. Because I thought that lots of things that H did were about me. But they weren't, aren't, even though sometimes my feelings still tell me they are. Like when H is drinking, and not going to be intimate that night, I can see that's not because I'm unattractive. I can trace those feelings, and see what I do own.

LA, I love Curves. I see people transformed all the time there. And then keep their healthy routines after. So encouraging! And have you noticed that as we change our perspectives, our bodies are changing, too? Getting stronger and healthier inside and out <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for the reminder to change my self-perspective, too.

I'm off to the gym now. I like the keeping promises part, to myself. Too many years I broke them.

I transformed before...and then changed back. I don't like the changing back.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thinking of you.

LA

LA, I've been thinking of you, too. I hope you're doing okay, experiencing these holidays around the time you lost your mom. Do you have a lot of family close by? Your sons and DIL and grandbaby?

Transformed before, and then changing back, do you mean physically? Emotionally?

I started Weight Watchers again this weekend, to get my eating more in line with all this exercise I'm doing. I'm keeping up the Curves routine, but I hit a weight plateau this month. I'm not eating fast food, so I'm already gotten rid of the easy calories. I guess there sneaky eating problems, like those sneaky DJs, still to ferret out. I'm doing the program that requires the tracking what you eat. In the past, it felt like an insurmountable effort to me. Now I know better <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Still feels like a PIA. (pain in the tush) So thanks for the perspective, about it being keeping promises to myself, too.

I had an AO yesterday, at my DD6 for not wanting to take Motrin, because her fever had gone down. I need to get back out those parenting books that helped me before. For what seems like a long time, now, we've found the win-wins, and parenting's been really easy. I haven't figured out what my code is when we don't find one, on a time-sensitive matter like that. For the time being, I told her I'm going to sit on her if she doesn't take her medicine, and that's been enough to get her to take it, but I'm very uneasy about it; it's not going along with my code. I'm not a threatener by nature, nor do I think sitting on her is a good parenting strategy LOL. The last time I sat on her was when she had eye dops she had to take. That's an awful memory for me; I can just imagine what it was like for her. Nor am I okay with the natural consequence of letting her temperature go back up; it rises very quickly, and it went to 103 the last time I let her skip a dose yesterday.

Anyhow, I'm glad that I have these books to pull out and refer to.

eo, I don't know everyone here that well, yet, but I'm assuming you're talking about a 6 year old? This may not apply to someone so young, but I've had incredible success with my daughter (17) by applying logic. For a medicine issue, I would explain to her what would happen if she didn't take it; help her visualize what else might happen, so she can make a decision to go ahead and take it. It has helped my daughter in a lot of situations. Especially when I'm not around to guide her.

LOL eo, sitting on a kid is an excellent parenting technique! -just kidding. But I think you are NOT horrible for threatening it. Does DD6 like the taste of the purple stuff? I forget if it's Motrin or children's Tylenol, but my kids love it so much that when one is sick the other wants to take it too. I've also heard it's good to alternate, like take Motrin, and then the next dose take tylenol, etc.

Having a sick child might be setting you on edge. Is H helping much?

Yes, a 6 year old. Logic works great with her with everything else. And it did get her to take it when I could show her the high temperature. But when her temperature got back down, that's when she gave me a hard time about taking the next dose. Even though I explained that her temperature was likely down because of the medicine.

Jayne, thanks for the tip about alternating the tylenol and motrin. That's the only way we got her temperature back down to begin with. It's a great tip. Because then if it's 4 hours until the next dose on the Mortin, and her fever's spiked again, we still can give her Tylenol.

Yes, the lack of sleep that comes with a sick kid did me in. H is helping, and I'm glad for that!

I know this is OT, but I feel really awful about my 17 year old sister. I think I've shared that my parents' home is constant dysfunction. I realized tonight that my stepfather used me to "twist the knife" in my sister, talking to her privately as she walked me out, about how she needs to respect her parents. Not realizing that he set her up to look disrespectful, when she wasn't. Just like he arranged things years ago to make me look like I was lying when I was being honest, to weaken my mom's trust in me. She said she'll be moving out in a few months, when she turns 18. I know she'd like me to take her in now. And that her parents would be okay with that.

For a few summers, she came to stay with us, even though H and I didn't get along, and even though H and I were both very judgmental both towards one another and towards her. She wanted to live with us. She doesn't complain much about how bad things were at home. I should have known; I'd lived there with all of it for years. I believed them all when they said things were okay now, even though some things were very obviously not okay.

In 2004, H was also open to her staying with us long term, but I was feeling overwhelmed, and sent her home at the end of the summer again. I am at a healthier spot now, but H has resentment against her now, and wouldn't be okay with it. I wish I'd had gotten help earlier, gotten healthy earlier, so I could have taken her in back then, and she wouldn't be stuck with this now. Living with parents who make her feel bad about herself like this. What an awful consequence for her, not even from her own actions.

I was putting off talking to my mom about the her and I, about my resentments, until I was ready to forgive, and I felt ready to do that. But I think I need to talk to her instead about the environment she's raising my sister in, and ask her to do better. To get specific about what I think she could do, like finding a counselor.

And talk to my sister about protecting herself. There are Alateen groups, where teens can learn how to live a happy life even in a horrible home.

eo, you can probably tell by now that I am a big believer in counseling - for anyone and everyone. Those are professional people who became therapists simply because they want to help people be healthy. Kind of like keeping your cash under the mattress when there's a perfectly good bank next door that can help you. I would definitely push for counseling. This is such a pivotal year for her. I know so so many girls who choose pregnancy as a way out.

If you're comfortable talking to your mom, by all means do it. I believe everything can be fixed through communication. Well, almost everything, outside mental illness.

Bottom line, stay in contact with her, show her a lifeline, and drive home the short term nature of her situation. It has helped my daughter a lot to think about the fact that high school - no matter how bad the home life is - is only a stepping stone to the REAL life - adulthood. Try to help her see the big picture. High school is just a testing ground, and she's doing fine just by surviving.

Thanks, cat, for your reply. I can't sleep, and I can't talk to H because he's mad at me for getting home late with the kids when we visted my mom. It helps to talk about this with someone who knows what kinds of things kids that age face.

My sister has no skills for living. She missed years of school because her parents were too messed up to get her registered when she was little. She goes to a rough school where lots of the kids have no life skills, either. A lot of kids she knows get pregnant and then face new problems. Her medical problems are so bad, though, congenital defects, that I don't think she'd let that happen. Because even as an adult I don't think she knows if she would be able to carry a baby to term.

Counseling is a great idea, and I will ask if she'd feel okay about me calling her school and asking about resources. She is doing amazingly well given the circumstances.