So right now, what I'm wokring on is request vs. demand. This morning, H was quizzing DD6 on her spelling words, and said to me, "Can you get her toothbrush with some toothpaste." I told him, I am fine about getting the toothbrush, but like I said, I am working on working is not feeling like I'm being told to do this, that I'm being asked. This one wasn't clear to me. One way that I'd know it was a question would be like if you said something like, "please" with it. He said, "I'm not begging you to get the toothbrush. Get it or don't get it." Sounded ticked. I was on my way to the kitchen, so I kept going, to go fix my breakfast, feeling good that I spoken up, and let go of the response.

He came in a few minutes later and said, are you driving DD6 to school today? I said I could, but I thought that he usually takes her. He said, I'm not taking her until she brushes her teeth. And I am not going to beg you to get her a toothbrush. If she's late, she's late. Not sure what to do, I went to go find DD6, figured okay, I'll take her. She had gotten herself her toothbrush, and was brushing, so h took her after all. I felt very unsettled, but I get it that i'm going to have to get used to letting go of the consequence again.

That's the hardest thing, I think, letting go of the consequence. It's scary.

I do think that your H probably feels under the microscope now, now that you're working on things, calling him out on unacceptable behavior, questioning his methods, so he probably feels a little 'damned if I do..." attitude. I am not surprised if he was ticked about being called out on how he asked you to get the toothbrush; in his mind, he probably thinks you're being ridiculous, asking him to say please first. That's not the way guys operate, typically. At least that's how I see it. So I get the sense that he thinks you're trying to turn him into touchy-feely, which in his mind is probably overkill. Which leads me to think that he's leaning toward California as more of a relief from being under that microscope than anything. Don't know why, but I get that sense. Easier to to just leave...

Now don't get me wrong. I think you should be doing this stuff. I just think that your H probably thinks you've gone over the deep end and are being picky about stupid things and he may be getting tired of walking on eggshells. So expect a lot of dust stirred over it all. But don't OWN that dust - it's not yours!

Cat, i hear you about how this is really pushing his buttons right now, even when I am trying to clarify that I am working on my piece. We went through 6 months of this two years ago, me trying to get clarity on request versus demand, but I'm patient today with being here again.

It doesn't really matter to me if it's "please" or some other signal. I thought that it was enough just that *I* know that I have a choice whether to do something or not. But I didn't realize how deeply this reinforced to H the idea that I am amenable to demands when I am not.

What I'm thinking is instead of asking for clarification from his side, which is NOT about me, I could choose a different filter. "I hear you asking me to please get DD6's toothbrush for her. Sure." That doesn't feel honest yet.

Just wanted to give an update. I think we're both in withdrawal. I feel a lot more okay and able to enjoy things than I have since that table incident two weeks ago. I've been remembering about the Friends Of Good Conversation so I can enjoy my time with H better, and it's really helping. Been listening and repeating, and I don't know why, but H is responding to that really well, clarifying where I misheard instead of getting madder.

He's been relatively calm, but he's ready to move on from our marriage, and I see how my reactivity, my controlling instinct to argue with that had been really agitating. I am really clinging to my basics, and it's really helping. Instead of defending myself, I've been listening and repeating, and then adding my O&H after he's done. "I don't talk divorce, I only talk marriage." and "I believe that we can work together and make a happier life together than we've ever had." It helps me to hear myself think and say these things. He told me the other day that we should give the kids up for adoption because we're such awful parents. How they have no friends because they have our personalities. I see how I've been really defensive and reactive when he says things like that. It's a relief to listen and repeat and let him carry his burden instead of trying to own that for him.

I don't really think that he's going to leave. I think he says these things because he wants out, but he doesn't have it in him today to act on that. I really do wish that I could fix all this for him. That I could reach him, today. But I understand that these things don't happen on my schedule. I am just going to stick to my basics and enjoy the good things until this blows over.

I had a great IC session. I told him that it worried me how reactive I had gotten about H's disapproval of me, and he had a new tool for me, reframing. He said that it's a really good thing that I was so uncomfortable, because it means that I am really growing and stretching into an individual. And that it is a really good thing also that H was so mad, because it means that he is really getting it that I am disagreeing with him. That I'm not just an extension of him. And that it's really good that I am disagreeing, bringing my perspective to the marriage. I feel really validated about what I've been working on.

H is away on his trip, and like I suspected, the guy that he went there to meet is not actually going to be able to meet with him, he's away somewhere else this week. I could really see it as his decision to own and not something that I need to help him figure out. Like the last trip, we plan to talk in the morning, lunchtime, and evening. He asked for the kids again, too, which made me feel good <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ears,

How long is DH supposed to be away on his trip? I am sorry to hear that his plans of meeting up with a potential employer? fell through.

Your IC session sounded really helpful... good to know.

We are back to work but all run down from being sick and are still sort of recovering. I will try to do some catch up this weekend.

Jilly

It wasn't a potential employer, it is his current client, headquartered in MD. He works remotely from home usually. Since the guy he was going up to meet wasn't available to meet, he's coming home early, getting in tonight. Internally I am getting back to the 90 degrees, not withdrawal nor the difficulty with enmeshment that I was having.

I am reading The Gaslight Effect, and it really enforces what TR pointed out about how I took that work situation to heart. But it is stirring up a lot of anger in me. Finding more villagers, appeasing and wishy-washiness. When H and I were dating, I really adjusted my value system for a while. It is amazing to me that I regained so much of who I was even before I found MB and learned about enmeshment.

I am getting ready to join you guys on the Villagers thread again. A lot of great stuff going on over there!

I spent some time on InRecovery today, and really identified with some of the women there. I am so grateful that for all my weaknesses and hard times, that I was not in a situation where my fidelity was threatened by someone who knew how to manipulate me. That when I was asked out, it was in situations where I felt enough mutual respect to say no without feeling badly about myself for giving someone the wrong idea. I know they were all cases where I had already communicated clearly that I was happily married, even when I wasn't. But I can clearly see a link between those events and when I put on weight rapidly, as if I needed an extra shield to protect me.

I'm finding that's a false payoffs to my weight gain that I am ready to make peace with. I think that it really did take up till now that I can lose the weight without fear of being pushed into situations that I don't want. Knowing that I am no longer someone who can be manipulated into bending my values.

I am really glad to have a very low libido spouse as I work through these body image issues.

I've read before about people putting on weight to keep from having to deal. Great subject for therapy, huh?

ears, can I ask you to visit someone's site? I've been talking to valentine on her thread on Plan A, and it has come to a head, and I don't know how else to help her. She is in so much pain. You always have such good advice.

Cat, thanks for the heads up.

My H just called, he felt really disappointed in himself, so I want to be empathetic.

He went on to describe why he was upset. His little consulting group is throwing a surprise baby shower for their coworker. The men were not asked to come to the shower, but to donate to the group gift. H replied to the invitation and mistakenly copied the woman they were trying to suprise. I can empathize with how bad he feels for that mistake. He responded to it to say, though, that they should have the other male coworker strip for them. As a joke. I want to be "safe" for him to be honest with. But it kills me his lack of boundaries with these folks. I told him that I am sorry to hear how badly he feels, but that it deeply hurts me that he chooses to talk like that with these women. He said, oh, that's nothing, we joke like that all the time. I said, I hear that it's nothing to you, but it really hurts me.

I am so angry with his lack of respect for me, for the way he dismisses me when I express my concerns. I've been trying to balance time together with time to be with people who are more nurturing to be around (friends of the marriage), but something like this, I just want to get away from him. To go to a meeting tonight and dinner with the meeting group after, and go spend tomorrow at my mom's house.

Well, he didn't say HE should strip for those women...

Ears, is it possible that your expectations for how your husband talks to people at work are a little high? Is there nowhere he gets to have his sense of humor, or relate in his own way, without feeling like he is disappointing you or not having boundaries you think are appropriate?

It's a stupid joke--but if that's how they talk there... It's not like he offered to do it himself...

Does he get to be himself, or does he have to be perfect everwhere--at home with you, with the kids, and at work? He was telling you how he was upset about something that happened at work, but it turned into how he doesn't care about YOU.

Something about that just feels off to me. And I could see me and my husband having a similar sort of conversation about something *I* didn't like that he was doing at work... in those instances, he has often said he feels like I'm trying to control him...

Why does his way of diffusing a situation about which he felt bad have to actually be about you? Is he unfaithful? Has he been unfaithful? Is it true that these people talk that way at work, or is he just spewing these sorts of comments alone?

He should be able to develop his own boundaries at his own pace and time--and if he feels that was an appropriate comment given the way they talk to each other at work, I think you are wrong to critique him. I really do.

Unless you fear he is at risk for having an affair with one of these women, and in that way the comment was unusual, kwim?

You can't control him, Ears. You can't control what he says, and you have to give him some space to be himself. It seems to me that he is working hard at trying to give you what you need.

IMO, fwiw.

PS.
In case you missed it--I admit that I am the pot calling the kettle black.

That's why I'm challenging you. I'm challenging you in the same way I try to challenge myself.

So I'm not trying to rail on you.

Ears, I have to admit, I was thinking the same thing Telly was when I read that. I was just afraid to say it; I'm a little gun shy today. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

My H has a ton of bad faults that he expresses in front of other people, but they still put up with him, and he does ok. Sometimes I have to sigh and roll my eyes when I'm with them, but they understand. He's still a nice person, so they just allow him his little foibles.

I'm just afraid that if you nit on things like this, he's going to shut down from whatever honesty he IS giving you. You can't change him, and you don't want to turn him into a male you.

He does share jokes with guy friends. In this case, I wouldn't have felt like he was crossing a line if he forwarded it only to his male coworker. I am sensitive about these woman because he admires their raunchiness and then tells people that I'm overly pious. And two of these women are the ones who he sees when he goes up to headquartes for overnight business trips. I don't see anything to like about this.



I hear you on this. Not my intent. I definitely don't consider myself hard on him. I ask him to try things differently, and don't shame him for what he does. If I had called with a similar issue, he would have laid into me about how I'm careless and irresponsible.

I can save my O&H for another time when he's not still hurting. Is that what you are suggesting?

He says that to me, too. What does that mean? In what way do you see me controlling him?

I don't think sharing my O&H is control. Control would be saying that he should feel bad about what he's doing. I am not saying that. I am telling him the consequences to me for his behavior.

Telly, he says things like this, too. I don't understand. Are you saying just wait until later, or are you saying just forget about it?


Not that I know of. But I have had time where my guts tells me something is off. I don't know what the IB was.


I believe him that they all joke like this. He used to forward the raunchy emails with their names in the from line, because he thought they were funny. I can see the humor, but again told him that I would like him to stop communicating like this with these women.


I understand about him drawing his boundaries in his time. I can accept that for a period of . How would you suggest that I improve my comfort level with that?




He knows that two of these women make me uneasy. He doesn't like that about me. This is a very touchy subject for us.


I am working hard to let go. Having trouble between balancing that with eliminating the LB withdrawals. This wouldn't bother you, really? You would be enthusiastic about it?


Thanks, Telly, this does help me. I am glad that he does feel open to call me when he's down.

Cat, my problem is not that I think they will see his joke as a fault. My problem is that they do this together, and his participating tells them (and me) that he likes it. I want him to WANT to develop boundaries with these women. But we only get there through trying and practice.

I don't like to think and hear that sharing my O&H makes it less likely that he'll share with me next time. That sounds like, "Be quiet to control his response." I'm not okay with that. Thanks for your help thinking through this, though!

Hi Ears,

Because I deal with similar things in my marriage, this is a good conversation for me, too.

But we're coming into my rough time of night. Making dinner, getting D ready for bed, and then I'm often out for the count.

I DO have some thoughts for you--but may not get to them till tomorrow.

I'm glad you weren't offended by my post. I tend to be pretty blunt on the interent.

(Btw, my due date is only four weeks away! I'm a little scared! :-))

This is for Cat...

{{{{{{{((((((((((((Catperson))))))))))}}}}}}}}}}

Yeah...I AM that strong. I'm huggin' the fur out of you because you win the bravest poster award today...for feeling gunshy and posting anyway.

For being where you are right now and choosing to remain here.

You did NOTHING wrong...you HARMED no one. You were harmed.

You have this belief...and it's yours and it's valid and you aren't bad or wrong for it. It's yours.

Others don't have it...TAKE offense to it. Good to know. Not you doing, 'k?

They have offensive beliefs, too, sometimes...doesn't mean you clobber them for it. This is a public board.

And the person you posted to about it got it...focus on who you were speaking to, reaching for, and connecting with.

And I'm posting this on EO's thread because it has been a safe place...doesn't mean it will remain that way...just has been. And stop lying about the ducking...when you say it...DO IT. Let it go over your head...that's about them, not you, 'k?

You are people; ergo, you make sense all the time. EO said so.

EO--listen for that signal..."I want him to want to" whatever...

PEOPLE DO NOT DO THAT WHICH THEY DO NOT WANT TO DO.

That's a big ol' DJ kicking your own butt...what we do and do not do is about us...and we do not do what we do not want to do.

For instance...when I had to pick up doggie poo in our backyard growing up. I HAD to do it...my chore, right? Wrong.

I could have chosen not to pick up the poo...and to step in it when I played back there. Yuck. That's a higher payoff...or to have my friends ridicule my backyard as stinky...or to have my mother yelling...or to get the flyswatter...all higher payoffs. Still my choice. I did what I wanted to do...just didn't feel like it at the time.

Respect this truism...you are his HIGHER PAYOFF...your marriage is his HIGHER PAYOFF...your family is...your love...your smile...delight...you are.

And he is yours...don't get caught in toe trap of focusing on wanting his feelings/thoughts/beliefs/desires to change...just his actions/choices.

Love youse guys and this thread. Miss you, too.

LA

LA, I have been working so hard on a project I wanted to be done and out the door with at 4. Now I know why I didn't finish it earlier, because I needed to hear what you said, thanks!

Now I'm out the door <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You're right, of course. If you can't be honest, you don't have a marriage. Just ignore me; I'm having a rough couple of days.

Here's one thought:

In the moment, whenever our husbands are sharing things with us that are going on with them, what if we took pains to note our reactions while being attentive, supportive and kind to them.

Then later, we can talk about our own concerns (at a completely different time and place).

One of the problems I have is that I tend to want to get my stuff (O&H as you would say) on the table RIGHT NOW.

Why? Will it be any less true or authentic if I wait to discuss it with him later? Would it be any less powerful or significant if I take some time to really think about how I want to proceed?

I don't know. I think that could be one way to let him be himself without haing to supress or ignore my own feelings.

It seems as if waiting to discuss my reactions (or in this case yours) might help.

I'm going to keep thinking on it though.