This is a question for everyone. I need some answers, ideas, and good advice.

Why would my WW need to have single male friends? We discussed this issue before and after we were married, I thought we had an agreement, apparently NOT.

She has continued to make single and married male friends. She mentions them once maybe and I never hear about them again, but she continues to talk to tjem occaisionally.

Now after all the devastation, she still says she needs single makle friends and this is causing her major resentment issues. This is one of the prime reasons she says I am controlling. I asked her yesterday if having single male friends is worth losing your family and marriage over. No answer, just tears.

I asked her why are single male friends so much more important and have a higher priority than you M, Family, husband, and kids? No answer, just tears.

What is up with this?

Can anyone help me understand this?

This has been a boundary for me since day 1, I have tried to set the example with no inappropriate female friends. I have protected my marriage from the day I said I Do.

Is this something we can get over? Is there hope?

Squid had 'em for YEARS. Has none now, unchaperoned.

All Squids opposite sex relationships were characterised by flirting. Thats all stopped now. She admits now it was because it made her feel desirable. My desire for her didn't count 'because you're my husband".

It counts now though.

Your W may use teh same rubbish excuses as Squd did ;

" I get on better with men than women" " women can be silly, I like the no nonsense approach". All rubbish. Its usually flirting no less.

Eagle,

Before FWW A's, I had the same problem with her, she found nothing wrong with having male friends and found nothing wrong with dancing with other men, she knew I was against her having male friends and dancing with other men and look at the mess it created, good thing she finaly realized what the dangers are.

How was your W's relationship with her father? Was she often critisized or put down by her parents? if her father/daughter relationship was bad then that might be a huge factor in why she wants male friends as was the case with my W.

If you confront her about it and all you get is 'no answer, just tears' deep down she knows it's not right but she most likely craves attention and approval from men.

Am I wrong?

B0b,

I get teh same excuse, "I get along better with men than women so I have to have male friends." This was supposedly settled before and after we were married, she agreed to not have them, well apparently that was a bust.

BND,

She was her father's little girl. Always his favorite. You are absolutely right, she said this 18 yrs ago "she craves attention and approval from men. "And B0b is apparently right as well "My desire for her didn't count 'because you're my husband."

So what now, she says she will be working on this with her IC, but who knows. Also she is very much in the victim mode. How does one get over that?

Eagle15


I guess I'm a bit confused about how you define 'friendship' and what you mean by talking to them occasionally. Are you talking about private conversations -- and even that can depend.

The reason I ask is because I wonder how mixed gender your wife's environment is. I study in a field that is easily 90% male. I have literally been the 'token female' in the class. If I didn't have conversations with men, I'd literally go through the day silent.

Are those conversations inappropriate? I don't think so (I'd have them in front of my H any day of the week and often tell him about them later on). Are those males 'friends'? Well, it depends on how you define friend. We help each other with our homework assignments, commiserate about tests and general angst about school, talk about classes and schedules, talk about graduation, and I guess I feel kindly towards them. Just yesterday I went out of my way to xerox my old tests for one of them to study (I did much better on mine than he did on his).

Do I have a 'need' to always be surrounded by 3-4 men (mosly younger, mostly single men ... I'm back in college for gosh sakes)? Well, no. But, I do have a need to be able to talk to people. And, in my particular situation, they're 90% of what's available. And, I have incorporated the limited number of willing females (ok, one! also married, also a returning student) into our circle. We have study groups, at my house, with my H present. Some of the study groups only the guys have come. Often they'll thank HIM for allowing them to come over and study.

I suppose my point is that it depends a bit on the social context of what you're asking for as to the answer to your question. If my H said "No talking to men." I WOULD be miserable and I WOULD feel controlled. Because that would mean "NO TALKING TO ANYONE FOR MOST OF YOUR DAY." It's NOT the same as his experience because he, also, works with 95% (or higher) men. So, he gets to go to work and have friends but I'm not allowed to have any?

I guess the question is: Is your wife looking for male friends in a mixed crowd? Or is she looking for friends in a crowd of men?

MB says to not make 'close' male friendships. I stick to that. I talk to my female friends about different things than I do the male friends. I agree there should be boundaries there but are you sure your boundaries still allow her to have reasonable friendly contact? How would you define reasonable friendly contact?

Now, maybe this is all stuff you all ready do -- I do seem to misjudge you a lot and I'm not trying to do that now. I guess you just come across to me as a pretty non-nonsense guy who might really mean no friendly behavior AT ALL towards men... but might not think of the flip side of the coin where that might mean no friendly behavior (conversations, social interaction) at all. Or, even if you do realize how severely that would limit her, you might think you wouldn't mind so why should she.


Obviously this is a big issue for you both.


What was the point of that question? I don't think you were looking for an answer because the way the question was phrased made it sound like a threat. If you really want to know the information "Why does she feel this way" you can't ask the question with a disrespectful judgement. What WAS the right answer to that question? Is there one?

You trapped her in a question with no right answer and wonder why she didn't speak. I wouldn't have spoken, either, and I'd probably hate you for it as well. Eagle15, you have really got to get a hold of your anger and control it better or you're going to keep pushing your wife away. I'm not saying she should have inappropriate male friendships! I'm saying that the way you talk to her is terribly abusive. It makes me cringe just reading it. (I'll probably take some heat for 'beating up on you' for saying that but it's TRUE. If you actually say what you write here... it makes me cringe. I think about how I would feel if anyone spoke to me that way and the best description I can come up with is -- pure hatred. Which is not, of course, to say I hate you -- I don't... I don't know you and I'm sure you're a fine man in a tough situation. Anyway...)


Do you really want to know/understand? Or, are you just looking for another outlet for your anger? Is this just another way to hold your wife up and say "LOOK SHE'S FLAWED!" Because the way you write this post just oozes with outrage that your wife could possibly want such a thing. Maybe I'm reading way, way too much into it but I have to ask this: What will you do if you get an answer?

If your answer is "Nothing, it doesn't matter, I'll never change my mind. This is absolutely a deal breaker regardless of how she feels about it and she can leave if she won't live within this boundary" Then what's the point of even trying to understand? Unless you're willing to open up your mind and assume maybe there is a good reason -- all you're doing is LB'ing.

Where are you coming from?

"I'm trying to understand my wife because I want to make something that works for both of us. To do that, I'm willing to move my boundary if needed."

or

"I'm trying to understand my wife because I'm trying to discover the depth of her depravity in an effort to fix her wrong thinking and get her back on the right track to how I think she should behave and feel."

I tried my best to answer your question assuming the first but the tone of your post felt more to me like the second.


Mys

HAving appropriate work discussions is one thing. Having male friends that your H is kept out of the loop with is another... that is what was described here. A person that has shown to be untrustworthy when it comes to seeting appropriate friend boundries... should not be trusted to have male friends. If you are a FWW, some of the things you have described here would make me uncomfortable.
There was nothing in the post that was "terribly abusive" as you phrased it. The question was posed in an odd way... but it was not abusive. Abuse is what is done to the BS trust. The questions that come up as a result of that are a consequence of that action and not abuse.

Before you make statements like that ... take a look at where this M is in relation to d-day... according to the signature... they are on MONTH removed from D-day #2. Doesn't sound like a spouse that should be trusted in a room full of women let alone men.

mkeverydaycnt


I guess my point is that it wasn't clear to me that is what was described at all. I was asking primarily for clarification.


I'm not a FWW.. nor am I a BS... I'm a concerned member of MB who primarily hangs out on the EN board for a long time and comes here to read when that board is slow. Occasionally, I try to offer what opinions I have regarding MB concepts.

I bolded the part where I said I wasn't suggesting she should have inappropriate male friendships, but I guess I didn't make that clear enough. Let me say it again. I do NOT think that she should have any inapproriate male friendships. I'm just not sure what Eagle's boundary really is....


In my opinion it contained a disrespectful judgement by assuming that his wife DOES hold these things to be more important than her marriage, kids, etc. DJ's are an abusive tactic -- Dr. Harley says so in his description of them at this site. In addition, it seemed to contain a threat about 'loosing her family.'


Of course, Eagle's trust has been abused by his wife's choice to have an affair! Just because he was abused doesn't mean he can't or won't abuse back.

I saw this conversation as a missed opportunity. As painful as her revelation might have been, she was coming to him with radical honesty about something that was bothering her. Being LB'd back down into submission isn't going to heal this marriage. At some point, they're going to have to have calm, reasoned discussions about painful things -- like this topic -- to find some way to live together again. If every time she brings up something he doesn't want to hear/talk about he pushes the DJ button or the veiled threat button, then how are they ever going to work anything out?

Once again, let me state clearly, I am NOT suggesting that he 'give in to her' or 'let her have what she want's or 'be a door mat' or anything of the sort. I'm simply trying to point out what he does to escalate the situation -- his wife was trying to reach out to him and tell him her feelings (as inconvienent as they are) and he batted her hand away with an AXE! How does that help heal the marriage?

*shrugs*

Mys

Eagle15 - Let me answer this part first; "Is this something we can get over? Is there hope?"

Yes this something that you can get over and yes there is hope.

Having said that, let me go back to your basic questions that you asked her, to which she responded with "tears" as her answer.

Those friendships ARE how she sees them, not as something sinister. She doesn't yet understand that Adultery results in CHANGES that MUST be made, regardless of how we feel or how we "used to do it."

There ARE places you used to go to,
Things you used to do,
Movies you used to watch,
Books you used to read,
Friendships you used to allow,
etc., etc., etc.....

...that you NO LONGER can do. NOW you have "living proof" that "self interest" must give way to servanthood, to considering our spouses needs ahead of our own perceived needs. The Adultery was simply the "epitome" of self interetst, self desire, doing what I want to do without consideration of the impact of what I am doing will have on my Spouse, who I CHOSE to "forsake all others for"....voluntarily and for life.

Working through this change in perception and "self orientation" instead of "spouse orientation" is one of the primary reasons WHY recovery takes an average of TWO years. "Surrendering" what we perceive as our "single rights" to what are "married rights" takes some people longer than others. Being secure in "self" is also part of the problem, and "needing" validation from others outside of God, spouse, family, indicates a need for counseling, not "giving into" those "justifications" for improper or potentially harmful behavior.

"This has been a boundary for me since day 1, I have tried to set the example with no inappropriate female friends."

Eagle, you seem to be confusing "Boundaries" with "Standards."

Boundaries are those things YOU will not allow someone else to do TO YOU. There are consequences that YOU attach to those boundaries that YOU implement if they are violated by someone.

Standards are those things that YOU will not allow yourself to do TO OTHERS. There are no "consequences," per se, attached to them. They are merely your chosen set of "morals," "beliefs," and "standards of your personal behavior" that YOU embrace for yourself.

You can establish Boundaries without any agreement from others because they are YOUR Boundaries.

You cannot "impose" your set of Standards on anyone else. You can explain your reasoning and why you have chosen them, and others my choose to agree with you and take them on as THEIR chosen Standards, but they cannot be "forced" upon anyone outside of yourself.

I takes much patience and endurance to survive "Recovery Road." Just remember that each step brings you that much closer to the end of the journey. Even when you have to take occasional "detours" to deal with problem issues that are uncovered, the detours always lead back to the main route unless you or your spouse choose not to go any further.

God bless.

lso she is very much in the victim mode. How does one get over that?

Squid's still in victim mode to some extent. 'Pity me' has always been an excuse when she's been busted for doing or saying something mean or selfish over the years, and the A is about the meanest and most selfish thing any person can ever do.

My way to handle it was give her absolutely ZERO excuse to feel victimised BY ME.

This is why I advised you a while back to open the cage. Coercing or forcing such a person as dear Squid ( and your Eaglet too I guess) is to give them an excuse to pout and not buy in.

Biggies - MY boundaries are NC, transparency, protection of myself from hurt. MY boundaries, meaning I am not forcing her to do these, but I will only stay and contribute to a marrige that has those tenets at its centre. She HATED them to begin with, as it was utterly clear that she wanted to stay but have me tolerating, grateful and submissive.

Npw she just lives with them and understands them. Its great !

Regarding the 'male friends; and flirting thing, I cover that in Transparency and protection from hurt.

I made it clear that if she did ANYTHING with a male that she would not do with me there I considered it a violation and a belittling of me that I did not deserve.

She raged that it was harmless, and I pointed out, very gently, that her OM had been a 'male friend' with a little flirting too at one time and that even though I did not doubt her intention to keep things innocent, her experiences had shown that it was beyond our control if we play with that fire.

She poouted " So I have to live like a nun !!"

I replied " no , you can live any way you like, but I'd prefer you lived like a respectable married woman adored by her husband".

you see the theme here, Eagle ? Don't force or cajole her to do anything and they have nothing to blame you for. Risk is, they can choose badly if they want, but they can do that ANYWAY right ?

What was an burden has become a responsibility to Squid and he thrives right now. Feels trusted by the open cage door rather than trapped by it.

Not guaranteed to work mate, but so far your missus has seemd very much like Squiddy.

I think it's tougher when you're the BH, and you watch the WW hang out with other guys after a betrayal. In my case, I am the BW, but I can say that I've always had both male and female friends. I choose friends by what we have in common. I really love sports, and it's hard to find women to watch or discuss sports with. My WH isn't a big sports fan. I've had the same set of male friends my entire adult life, and never "flirted" or crossed any kind of lines. If your wife has male friends, it's important to know why. Is it because she craves male attention, or is it because she has EN's that you or her female friends are unwilling or unable to meet. Guess that is the root of the problem.

Myschae,

She works with mostly female and a few males. This has to do with her befriending patients, OM was one of her patients, and inappropriate friendships. She covers with I meet people, try to bring them into our circle of friends, and you don't like them. Now, maybe I'm wrong, but I do not believe it is my wife's job to try and make friends for me.

She states that I should try to be friends with her single male friends, OK I would try if I was ever introduced to them, however I've never met these guys, jsut heard her talk about them. She has had an ongoing email relationship with a former patient, about 9 years, I intercepted emails about trying to hook up in a deployed location, these emails were also way too familiar, I contacted this guys wife, sent her copies of the emails, and she thought her H and my W were way too familiar. I don't know maybe it's just me. If i want new friends I will find them myself I do not think my wife should be looking for single males to be my friend.

Quote: I suppose my point is that it depends a bit on the social context of what you're asking for as to the answer to your question. If my H said "No talking to men." I WOULD be miserable and I WOULD feel controlled. Because that would mean "NO TALKING TO ANYONE FOR MOST OF YOUR DAY." It's NOT the same as his experience because he, also, works with 95% (or higher) men. So, he gets to go to work and have friends but I'm not allowed to have any?

My answer to this is No I do not mind casual business conversations, I am not an ogre, I also work in a professional environment, I talk to men and women, it is required. I do not however have personal relationships with female co-worker or clients. I DO NOT have a no talking to men boundary!

Quote: Is your wife looking for male friends in a mixed crowd? Or is she looking for friends in a crowd of men?

It is a mixed crowd.

Quote: MB says to not make 'close' male friendships. I stick to that. I talk to my female friends about different things than I do the male friends. I agree there should be boundaries there but are you sure your boundaries still allow her to have reasonable friendly contact? How would you define reasonable friendly contact?

Yes my boundaries do allow for reasonable friendly contact. I draw the line at hiding these friends, when her friends take priority over M and family, welfare of me and children. If she has nothing to hide then she should hide nothing. If she wouldn't talk to these people in front of me and the kids then she shouldn't do it.

Quote: What was the point of that question? I don't think you were looking for an answer because the way the question was phrased made it sound like a threat. If you really want to know the information "Why does she feel this way" you can't ask the question with a disrespectful judgement. What WAS the right answer to that question? Is there one?

The point of the question is I need to know. You can call it a threat or DJ or anything else you want, I don't care, I do need an answer to this question. There is no "right answer", there is an answer that needs to be stated. I have been running around in the dark for too long. She needs to honestly answer these questions so I can determine the best course for our family to follow, so we can move forward rather than drifting along in limbo.

Quote: Do you really want to know/understand? Or, are you just looking for another outlet for your anger? Is this just another way to hold your wife up and say "LOOK SHE'S FLAWED!" Because the way you write this post just oozes with outrage that your wife could possibly want such a thing. Maybe I'm reading way, way too much into it but I have to ask this: What will you do if you get an answer?

Yes I really want to know. If her friends mean more than her kids or her H or her marriage then I need to know, I need to cut my loses and move on without her, PERIOD!

"I'm trying to understand my wife because I want to make something that works for both of us. To do that, I'm willing to move my boundary if needed."

I do not think my boundary needs moving, but if she would at the very least discuss this issue, I could and would adjust accordingly. The problem here is If she won't discuss it how do I even know it needs adjusting other than it makes her mad, therefore I can't adjust it. If she won't tell me anything other than I am controlling because I won't put up with secret friendships with single men, then how can I adjust a boundary???

I will not live in limbo any longer and I will not be second to anyone else. Sound like a demand? You bet. Is it unreasonable, not in the least.

I know she will ahve contact with men and women, will talk to tehm and interact. My boundary is about having personal relationships that I do not know about with single and married men. If they are as she says "just friends" then why not let me know about them? Why hide them? I believe it is inappropriate to ahve a personal relationship with these men. My beliefs, I believe are in line with MB principles on this very subject. She has not tried to protect her marriage. That is the problem. Her actions meak me feel like the past 18 years have been her waiting and lookong for something better to come along.

You are right I am a no-nonsense kind of guy. If she can't discuss these issues and sees them as LBs so be it. I ahve been working this for over 7 months now, alone without her help or input. At some point answers must be given. I need to make family decisions with the ebst and accurate information possible. My decisions are only as good as the information I used to make them. At some point straight talk as opposed to BS, feelings, etc... has to occur if not I may as well quit wasting my time.

MEDC,

Thank you for you post and insight.

Myschae,

When WW says you are controlling because you won't tolerate my single male friends, notice she doesn't approach the fact that I don't know about them, I am unwilling to commit to rebuilding the M. When she continues to leave the family in limbo, refuses to state her intentions, this to me and any other sane person would indicate that her personal relationships with these men is a higher priority that her kids, husband, marriage, and family.

Quote: In my opinion it contained a disrespectful judgement by assuming that his wife DOES hold these things to be more important than her marriage, kids, etc. DJ's are an abusive tactic -- Dr. Harley says so in his description of them at this site. In addition, it seemed to contain a threat about 'loosing her family.'

So if your S was putting you family through this what would you think? If your S was witholding a comittment over what you consideredd an inappropriate relationship would you feel that your S does indeed feel that the friendships are more important than F or M?

You are right she is abusing us with her indecision and the fact that she does hold her private relationships above her M & F.

And By the way she did not bring this up I did. She will never willingly discuss M or R.

Please listen to Myschae. She is dead on.

You are getting no response and tears, because you've backed her into a corner. She won't discuss your marriage or relationship because she's backed into the corner.

I wouldn't either if I were her. You have a very singular view of the situation and there are only your right answers.
She's got a tightrope to walk.

She needs to heal.
She's not a recovered WS. She's not a FWS.

She's still contemplating what she wants to do. She is not committed to recovery, and yet you want her to act like she is. She's going along with your expectations, but believe me she is still very very conflicted in her mind on which way this is going to go.

Eagle 15


*sighs* I quite agree with you, Eagle15. You DO need to know. But, the way you ask the question might be what's preventing you from getting an honest answer. Will you at least consider that?

If she's met with nothing but more anger and another reason for you to tell her how wrong she is, why should she talk to you about it? Can you see how that would be masochistic on her part? Better to remain quiet.

I'm TRYING to help you GET to an answer. (Maybe I'm doing a terrible job, but I really am trying to help.)


Maybe that's what she's afraid of... if she answers the questions you'll decide what's best for her and everyone else without allowing her to be part of that.


What about if her friends don't mean MORE to her than her kids or her H but she doesn't think they have to be mutually exclusive things? What if she wants to find a way to do both... some of the things you said include you in the friendships might be some area that you both can find some comfort so that she doesn't feel controlled and you don't feel left out of the loop.


But, you don't come across as wanting to 'discuss.' You come across as wanting to interrogate. Can you really not see that?


Yes, your beliefs and what you're asking for are very in line with MB. HOW you're asking and stating your beliefs is not. I'm not arguing WHETHER she should have what she wants -- only the method in which you talk to her about it.


*sighs* Once again, why should she discuss them if you're going to LB. How about making the dicussion safe for her?


Oh, Eagle, her feelings aren't BS... they're how she feels and she's entitled to them. Just as you're entitled to yours.

You don't really believe they are, do you?

I honestly don't know how I'd feel. I suppose I wasn't looking at it from that standpoint because you originally asked for how to make this conversation work and how she might be feeling.
I do know that if I approached my H the way you approached your wife (assuming that what you say here is what you really say to her) then I wouldn't be likely to get any kind of an answer from him. Or, similarly, it wouldn't matter how "right" he was, if he approached me the same way you seem to approach your wife, he wouldn't get much from me, either.

I'm of two minds about your threads. 1.) I should stay off them because I think I just make things worse for you. or, 2.) I should stay on them because what you're doing isn't working -- I can see why it wouldn't work for me -- and I might be able to help you find a way to MAKE it work by doing things differently. Got any thoughts on that? My feelings won't be hurt if you tell me I'm not helpful -- I'll still wish you the very best.

Mys

I see a pattern in your relationship.

You state your boundries or standards. She doesn't argue with you. You assume that means she has agreed. She does what she wants behind your back. And you are stunned because you thought you were on the same page.

You're both at fault.

First of all, early on, you must have established that your view is the only one you'll accept. So she's reached a point of figuring there is no point in arguing with you, because you will never understand her view. Or you'll just bully her into acceptance.

So she stopped fighting for her side. She just listens to you, then does what she wants.

In no way do I think she is right in doing what she is doing. I just understand her method.
This has deteriorated to the point of unhealthiness. You can't resolve any issues.

You desperately need a mediator.

Myschae -- please stay -- I also see the same things you do, and you have such an eloquent way of putting it!

Mys is so right that you need to make these conversations safe for her.

You and EagleToo need to start with the very basics of communication. You have lost the ability to talk to each other!

Can you name one instance in which she was right? Do you ever accept her point of view?

Eagle - I think Lexxxy may be right. I think my W may be in a similar situation.

My W thinks I am controlling her by telling her what to do and not do regarding OM (that's not a joke) - says that is why she lied to me about contact - I told her I wasn't trying to control her, but the fact that she was lying to me meant that I did control her - sort of thought that was funny -

For some reason, it seems that quite a few W's have control issues - maybe it's a woman thing. I don't know.

I may not be in exactly the same boat, but I can echo the sentiments about not forcing. I have found the greatest difference in our relationship has been my willingness to let go of what she saw as controlling. Some of it came in the form of demands and some of it was in the form of pouting if I didn't get my way. I found that the less I demand of W, the more I get. And I can't tell you how much better it feels when things you desire are offered willingly and with love rather than resentment over "having" to do something. The difference is AMAZING.

Unfortunately, Bob was right and some spouses may not choose to do what mine has done, but that's a chance you may have to take.

Myschae,

Just asking a straight question should not be a problem. All things considered, I should not have to ask a question, nor should anything I say or want to say, have to be filtered in a PC way. If I want to know something I should be able to ask.

Example: I would like to know why friendships are placed at s much higher level of importance than our marriage and our family?

If I am understanding what youa re saying I should phrase my question as:

I feel that by placing such a high importance on your friendships with single men, our family is at risk and this makes me sad and hurt, we need to negotiate these friendships.

stating a question like that may be non-confrontational, but it is also in a way condoning her past behavior. I do believe that her feelings and opinions are important, but if I do not have all the information any decisions we make are not going to be the best possible decision. Why? because I can't possibly put forth my best effort if I don't know all the details.

It's like taking your car to the mechanic and saying "It's broke fix it." Well that's an option, but when the mechanic asks "What was it doing before you brought it here" and you answer with tears an no response, well that's going to cost you a lot more money because the mechanic has to go through the whole car to find the problem and even when that is done he still may not fix the problem that was bothering you. Why? because you failed to communicate the problem to him in the first place. If the problem was a rattle and eh tuned up the car, resealed the leak in your windshield, replaced the muffler, fised the brakes, but didn't fix the rattle, will you be happy with his repairs? No because it still rattles. Who failed here You did because you didn't tell him it rattles, you just said "It's broke fix it."

So a little straight communication should not be a bad thing here. I have asked this same question in a hundred different ways, and understand that this is the same woman who listed a major LB as leaving a glass next to my sink, not everyday, but one in a while, like once a month. So pretty much anything I say is an LB if it is in relation to our M or R.