friends

When a bottle of champagne is ended, that doesn't mean it wasn't delicious.
When a great car eventually breaks, it doesn't devalue the great service it gave
When an author dies, it does not reduce the truth of their words
When a prophet falls into sin it does not mean God cannot use their fall for His good !
When a long term faithful spouse cheats, it does not invalidate the years of fidelity ,although it may feel that way for a time

And...

When a FWW ignores her own advice selfishly and stupidly having given sterling support and wisdom to this board for many years, it does NOT invalidate the advice she gave THEN, nor the path she previously chose.

Please...

Remember when you are upset and made fearful by Jenny's lapse that she says her actions have REINFORCED to her the wisdom of MB 's approach. Far from disproving it, KIWI's situation hugely SUPPORTS the persistent adherence to MB guidance.

LOOK at the mess following desires and instinct over proven principals has caused her and (soon) her poor H !

If Jenny's s advice has helped you in the past IT WAS GOOD AND HELPFUL ! Her current mess is testamentto the fact ONLY that she should have taken her own advice, NOT that MB fails.

Pray with me that Jenny can rescue this situation with her husband and that they serve to be ONCE AGAIN a positive example to us all. Do not fear that our own recoveries may falter in the same manner, but instead let us learn the lessons this situation provides: let it help us PREVENT such a stumble.

Thanks.

All blessings.

Hear,hear.

Bob,
I realize that recent events don't invalidate any MB concepts.
What is keeping me up at night is that fact that Jen has not internalized these concepts, I and trusted they were deeply ingrained in her beliefs.
I am basing my relationship, and in some aspects my very life-on the belief my FWH has internalized radical honesty. I am not afraid that he will see OW and decide to start things back up again. It might happen, and that is his choice. I will be deeply hurt, but I don't fear that-as long as he is honest every step of the way.
I want a relationship in which I know every thought, (good and bad) insecurity, and desire of my partner. Intimacy to me means sharing all these things-honestly-even if it hurts or means the end of the relationship. I don't expect him to be perfect, to have only good and holy thoughts, to not stumble and get frustrated w/ our relationship. All I want is for him to respect me enough to be honest-radically honest. I thought he understood that, and believed it too. Most importantly, I thought my intuition would guide me as I looked for signs in him that demonstrated his shared belief.
She has not internalized radical honesty, and I belived she had. That is what is keeping me up at night.

You know ; I drop into this place , every couple of years, for a couple of years now and I do recall Jens posts.


I do hope her and her husband come out the [censored] end of this...changed.

for the better.


Max

Bob, I understand what you are trying to say, but let's look at another way, okay?

I am in agreement with Starting Again's comment quoted above.

KiwiJ appears to have a need for external validation of herself. But she "holds back" the full commitment to her husband and seeks validation from the OM and from folks here on MB who she wants to see her as "helpful and wise" in "matters marital and recovery from adultery."

"Do as I say, not as I do" is just as false a teaching with respect to infidelity as it is with respect to a thief telling someone not to steal.

The way to lead is by example. Not "internalizing" (as Starting Again put it) this "stuff" results in mere regurgitation of OTHER PEOPLE's beliefs and Standards and NOT reflective of one's own beliefs. Does the phrase "wolf in sheeps clothing" ring any bells? Does "beware false teachers..." mean anything?

I understand compassion. I will have all the compassion in the world for Jen WHEN she truly embraces her husband and REPENTS. She has to CHOOSE. Until she does, all we are doing by "supporting her" is really just enabling her.

So I, for one, will wait. Without repentance, there can be no forgiveness. The rest is just a "sham" and a "feel good" without the strength of truth and a "changed life."

I do pray that Jen WILL finally "wake up" and "smell the roses." But it's now the "11th Hour," and she doesn't have much time left to play her game of being married but not fully committed.

God bless.

starting again,

Kiwi's marriage is not yours , mine or anyone elses here.

Sleep and sleep well. You deserve that.

Max

Agree very much with these points, Bob. Her lapse did not discredit Marriage Builders principles, they REINFORCED them. This was not a failure of MB but a failure of Jen to follow those principles. MB cannot work if you don't practice the principles!

That would be like saying, "she quit that diet and gained all the weight back." DUH! A diet can't work if you aren't on it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Hi FH !

"Do as I say, not as I do" is just as false a teaching with respect to infidelity as it is with respect to a thief telling someone not to steal.

I do not believe that Jenny had any intention of betraying her H again as she advised and wrote helpfully. That is what I tried t say in my introduction. The years our wives were our faithful companions before their affairs, FH, they were not biding their time waiting to cheat. They made very bad choices when resented with a set of circumstances, as Jenny has here. I do not believe they were long-planned.

thief telling someone not to steal.

When I was at school we had a wrecked ex junkie visit us to tell us the dangers of drug use. It was more effective than a thousand preachers moralising without a strident example IMO. Would the lesson be any less effective if that junkie had gone back to drug abuse later ?

What's the saying? 'Failing to plan = planning to fail.'

Jen presumably did not have a plan for what to do if confronted with this situation - what she must do no matter what her feelings or impulses in the moment. She did not have a prepared set of principles on which to hang her behaviour.

Hoping that you will be strong at a moment of temptation is not the same thing as planning for how you'll behave when you feel the temptation.

Specifically what this does to me is it makes me reflect on all the pain and suffering. It makes me think about how unfair Plan A is, the A is, how selfish the WW is throughout the entire process and putting up with all that grief in the hopes of recovering a marriage. And then after 2 years? 3 years? have WW chuck it all in to try to rekindle the fantasy. I think about all that time I would have wasted needlessly. How I could have used that time to separate and heal. It made me wonder if this whole MB thing was worth the bother.

Then, as I posted in the other thread, I simply decided KiwiJ is not gemela and I am not Rob. That is the only good thing that can be said. KiwiJ has given me good advice. I will forever be greatful for that. She chooses to live her life as she wants. We all do. Gemela has her own choices to make.

The problem with MB (or at least this forum) is that it goes to such great pains to show how all WW's are "typical". They are all "the same". They all share the same fog. We have it so drilled into us that all WW's behave alike that, when KiwiJ does something like this, it makes it very difficult to differentiate KiwiJ from "all WW's". That is where I got hung up.

Yes!!....Well said Bob.

The effectiveness of the lesson for "others" is NOT the issue. TRUTH does not change, only one's interpetation of it.

If one places "truth and acceptance" in something BECAUSE of the "authority" of the speaker to make such a statement, then it is BASED on what that speaker actually does in support of their arguments and beliefs.

KNOWING the truth and accepting the truth are two totally different things. There are many who will tell you, for example, that "accepting God is good and beneficial for your life," but they personally reject the idea for themselves. They, by their actions that "give lie" to their words, demean and diminish the truth and reduce it to merely "if it 'feels good' to YOU, it must be true for you."

People CAN, and do, change in many ways, Bob. That's why we speak of Wayward Spouses as being "abducted my aliens." The "Wayward Spouse" person is NOT the same person they were when we married them, nor the same person they were PRIOR to getting involved in adultery that they SWORE, VOWED, and PLEDGED to not get involved in "no matter what." The FORMER Wayward Spouse is also not the "alien Wayward Spouse" anymore, unless they are holding back and pretending to be in recovery. "Forsaking ALL others and keeping myself only unto you" is the phrase, or something similiar, that is usually in most wedding vows.

So "No," the past "good times" are not altered. But we are not talking about the past, we are talking about the present and the future.

We are talking about growing and what we DO believe NOW.

Her fundamental problem is that she will not give her "all" to her husband. Until then, the rest is "just so many words" that are doomed to failure. The example that IS pertinent is that "Doing as I do" is NOT a good idea regardless of the rest of it.

We have the right to "just say no." We have the right to "just say yes." We have the right to "choose." It will be founded in our beliefs as to WHO is on the throne as "sovereign" in our own lives..

Whether or not Jenny had any "intention" is not the issue. If she did, the answer is clear....repent fully or divorce.

If she did not, then it is equally clear that she still thinks she can "choose" in this matter. That is not situation where one "retains" the "right to choose." This illustrates, again, that we all need to surrender OUR right to choose to our spouse in areas that affect the marriage. CONTACT of any kind with Other Person in a former adulterous relationship is on longer a matter of "individual choice." THAT "right to choose" is, or should be, surrendered to the spouse who has chosen to forgive despite the "harm that was done" as a means to establish "extraordinary precautions" to safeguard the marriage.

God bless.