Hi, I am new to posting, but not new to the board. I have been reading a lot, including the adamant No Contact threads.

My husband had a 2-1/2 month affair with a woman who works for a different division of his company (even a totally different building, across town). I found out when he confessed the affair to me on March 27 of this year. We decided at that time to try to work on the marriage, but we weren't doing a very good job of it in the beginning. I was reading lots of books and trying to figure things out and we had a marriage counseling appointment set up, but we hadn't really talked much, and he wouldn't tell me who she was or give any details.

Then a week later, I caught him back at it again. I had figured out who she was, so when I found that he wasn't where he was supposed to be one day, I looked her up in the phone book, and found him at her house.

It was not pretty.

After that, my instant reaction was to want a divorce, so we started telling everyone that we were going to get a divorce, and why. He exposed everything to his family, his work, everyone. I had already told my own family. He was honest when he told people, I heard about it from several of them when they called me to offer me support after he told them what was going on.

We decided again to try to work on saving our marriage, and this time he was on board. We were talking a lot and he broke things off with her. He was adamant that it was totally over and nothing for me to worry about. We have been going to marriage counseling weekly ever since.

His workplace does not care about the affair, and neither of them will lose their job over it. They say they are "not the morality police". He does not have to actually come in contact with her since they work for different divisions, except for over the radio, which everyone in the entire company can hear. But he obviously CAN easily come in contact with her if he wants to -- he did before. He says I shouldn't worry aobut it, because it is "all over" and they are "just friends" now. He equates it to some ex-grilfriends of his (from BEFORE we knew eachother) who we still know and are friends with.

But I DO still worry about it. They still work for the same company, and still CAN have contact. She's still there and still available, which is a huge threat to me. He doesn't understand why I have a problem with it.

He has been at this job for 10 years, and isn't going to quit. She's not going to, either. He said that when she asked if they could be friends, he told her "I'm friends with x, y, and z, also, but I don't call them or know their last names, or know where they live, etc., and that's the level of "friends" we are, now, too." He said she cried when he broke it off with her.

We're going to marriage counseling, but our marriage counselor doesn't seem to think it's a problem for them to work at the same place, either. She said that my problem was "someone knowing something about my husband that I didn't", so she wants him to tell me anytime he talks to her or sees her, except for over the radio.

My husband is on the fence about saving our marriage. He has been going to counseling, talking to me a lot about what went wrong, what we need to do better, etc. We have had big, bawling conversations where he says he wants me back, etc. He talks all the time about our future, which makes me feel so good, and sometimes can be very affectionate and loving towards me. He always accounts for all of his time and tells me exactly where he will be and when. He has apologized, in a sort of general "I'm sorry I hurt you" way, but only once or twice, during the big, long, sobbing conversations. He tells me he loves me every day, but it depends on his mood. He won't repeat it if I tell him I love him, he just asks "do you?", in a sort of "I'm not interested in hearing it, quit bothering me" kind of way. He takes full responsibility for the affair, and says it was a bad choice, and has a lot of guilt over it. But then he places the blame for the state of our marriage entirely on me and gets moody and grouchy if I talk too much about how I feel. He said in counseling that I need to start learning to stand up for myself and challenge him, but then when I do, he gets explosively angry (never physical, just yelling and cursing a lot), followed by days of being quiet, sullen and moody about it.

He says he "has hope for us" but that he isn't sure yet if he wants to put the effort in to making our marriage work, because it will be so hard. He says he thinks it will be too much work, and it would be easier to just quit. Which totally contradicts the "I want my wife back" statements.

I don't think our marriage counselor is getting much done for us, she hasn't outlined a plan or steps to take, she just has us talk. He likes her, though, and getting some of this talking out on the table really is helping. So I don't want to ask him to switch counselor's because I don't want it to look like I'm shopping for one who will agree with me on the no-contact thing, and I do want him to keep going. But I needed a plan, so I called by myself and got an appointment with Steve Harley. My appointment was this morning, and he said that my husband is "compartmentalizing" the affair. In his mind it's over with, done and not a problem, and he (husband) thinks I should be able to feel that way, too. Steve said I need to explain the severity of how hurt I am to my husband, and equated it to if someone came in and raped our daughter, would my husband be ok with me "still being friends" with that person.

I don't think I can use that extreme of an example with my husband in his current state of mind, I think he'd hear it more as a threat or something than as an illustration of how I feel. Steve said that I need to get a third party to help illustrate some of these things to my husband, because he will take anything I say as an attack or as self-serving. Steve suggested getting some books and reading parts of them to my husband. Husband will NOT read either Survivng an affair or His Needs, Her Needs, because he thinks I have read too many books and need to start making decisions for myself. So I'm still trying to figure out how to get some of this information across to my husband.

In the meantime, I think I need to do Plan A until my husband fully commits to working on the marriage, and agrees to no contact. It's so hard, though, when he can be so ugly and hateful sometimes, then so loving and attentive others. My heart is in shreds right now. I don't know how long I can last. And of course everyone I know is telling me to just get out and kick him to the curb. Like it's just that easy.

Sometimes I'm so certain that we will make it and be just fine, but then other times I don't think there is any hope at all.

Thanks for reading, sorry this got so long. I'm not even really sure what my question is. I'm just really miserable right now, and it makes it worse trying to NOT allow my husband to see me that way. We're going on a family vacation this weekend, so that might help a little bit. At least it will be something distracting, and SHE won't be anywhere nearby for me to worry about.

Welcome to Marriage Builders, my friend, I am sorry you are here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Someone called Dr. Harley about this very issue today on his radio program. A male BS explained that his wife is still withdrawn and hostile 3 months after D-Day. She still works in the same company with the OM, but they don't see each other daily.

The man was puzzled why they just can't seem to break through and asked if she was in "withdrawal."

Dr. Harley asked him if he had read his books and the man replied OH YES! Dr. said then what is MY NUMBER 1 RULE on how to overcome infidelity? The man hem hawed around and couldn't answer.

Dr. Harley said: "never, ever see a lover again even if it means quitting a job or moving to another state." [paraphrased]

He explained that this is why his wife will never recover. She will NEVER get through withdrawal. His marriage will NEVER recover until that happens.

So, I am not sure what your question is either. If it is to find a way to change the reality of the situation, that won't happen. The simple truth is that your marriage will never recover until he leaves that job. You are facing an on-again, off- again affair because he cannot withdraw until contact ends.

There is nothing we can say to you that will change that reality. There are no magic words we can tell you to say that will motivate your H to up and quit his job tomorrow. He has plainly told you that he places his job over his marriage and that is that. Now, you have to decide if you can live with that reality. Because we cannot change it for you, unfortunately.

I think my question is this: Will doing Plan A get him to the point of agreeing to no contact? In the book, I can't remember his name, but the guy in the example did Plan A while his wife was still having the affair. At least my husband isn't currently still in the affair, even though I'm sure it will be on-again if they stay workingfor the same company. In the book, they eventually worked things out, and in my mind, the whole point of Plan A was that it was supposed to show her that he could be a much better choice.

Can Plan A help me show my husband that I'm a better choice than staying friends with her and keeping his job?

But if you don't set that boundary, what would induce him to leave? He has told you he won't leave so he has no motivation to leave.

Dr. Harley's advice was to for him to make a deal with her. Tell her that he knew that he could makes theirs a wonderful marriage, but only if she left the job and cut off all contact. Without that step, though, there would be no chance.

Sorry for being dense, I don't totally get it, though. Are you saying don't even bother with doing Plan A, because there is no hope that he'll ever agree to no contact?

Or that I should go with Plan A, and keep talking to him about the boundary of no-contact, until he either agrees, or leaves or I can't take it anymore and have to go to Plan B?

I do understand that no-contact is the number one rule, and that we have to have that to recover. I just want to know if there's a way to show him that it's a good idea before we just give up. I thought that was what Plan A was for? I'm really confused about all of this, so I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm arguing with you, that's not what I mean to do.

Sad, if he has told you already that he has no intention of leaving, then I don't see why Plan A would change that. But you will have to do what you think will work the best. Dr. Harley advised the caller today to offer a deal to the WS as I outlined above.

Another option would be to get him to agree to counsel with Steve Harley. He might be able to make inroads on gettng him to leave his job.

However, I would think the first step would be to show him Dr. Harleys column about this subject and tell him there is GREAT HOPE for your marriage, but only if he leaves his job. Let him know that you won't settle for less because this is your boundary.

That is, unless you are willing to settle for this, then you wouldn't want to tell him that.

Here is the column he needs to see:

Dr. Harley in Coping with Infidelity: Part 2
How Should Affairs End?


Never see or communicate with a former lover

Once an affair is first revealed, whether it's discovered or admitted, the victimized spouse is usually in a state of shock. The first reaction is usually panic, but it's quickly followed by anger. Divorce and sometimes even murder are contemplated. But after some time passes (usually about three weeks), most couples decide that they will try to pull together and save their marriage.

The one having an affair is in no position to bargain, but he or she usually tries anyway. The bargaining effort usually boils down to somehow keeping the lover in the loop. You'd think that the unfaithful spouse would be so aware of his or her weaknesses, and so aware of the pain inflicted, that every effort would be made to avoid further contact with the lover as an act of thoughtfulness to the stunned spouse. But instead, the unfaithful spouse argues that the relationship was "only sexual" or was "emotional but not sexual" or some other peculiar description to prove that continued contact with the lover would be okay.

Most victimized spouses intuitively understand that all contact with a lover must end for life. Permanent separation not only helps prevent a renewal of the affair, but it is also a crucial gesture of consideration to someone who has been through ******. What victimized spouse would ever want to know that his or her spouse is seeing or communicating with a former lover at work or in some other activity?

In spite of career sacrifices, friendships, and issues relating to children's schooling, I am adamant in recommending that there be no contact with a former lover for life. For many, that means a move to another state. But to do otherwise fails to recognize the nature of addiction and its cure.

<snip>

We don't know if R.J. still sees his lover, but he says he has broken off all contact. In many cases where a person is still in town, that's hard to prove. But one thing's for sure, if he ever does see his lover, it will put him in a state of perpetual withdrawal from his addiction, and make the resolution of his marriage essentially impossible. In fact, one of the reasons he is not recovering after three months of separation may be that he is not being truthful about the separation.

Entire article at: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html


Mimi wrote: Check this out from the How to Survive an Affair chapter in HIS NEEDS, HER NEEDS..one of my favorite pieces of reading material...

p. 177

...I have seen husbands build new and wonderful relationships with their wives but then go back to their lovers after five or six years of what appeared to be marital bliss. When I ask them why, they inevitably tell me they miss the woman terribly and still love her. At the same time they stoutly affirm they love their wives dearly and would not think of leaving them.

I believe a man like this has told the truth. He is hopelessly entangled and needs all the help possible to be kept away from his lover and stay faithful to his wife. I often recommend that a man once involved in an affair come in to see me every three to six months on an indefinite basis, just to talk about how things are going and to let me know how successfully he has stayed away from his lover. He must resign himself to a lifetime without her. HE MUST CERTAINLY NOT WORK WITH HIS FORMER LOVER AND SHOULD PROBABLY LIVE IN SOME OTHER CITY OR STATE. Even with those restrictions the desire for her company persists...

Sad..

I hope you don't take offense..but I'm going to attempt to condense what ML is talking about with respect to your specific question of..do I keep trying to get him to agree that NC is a good idea.

Short answer? No.

What needs to be communicated..is that NC is not negotiable. It is a condition of recovery of the marriage. Without NC there is no recovery.

He doesn't have to like it..he doesn't have to agree that it is a good idea..

He has to be made aware that choosing to refuse NC is choosing to end his marriage to you.

If you aren't willing to really drop that axe..then you have no leverage..because the truth is..as long as he doesn't leave your marriage entirely..you'll take whatever he's selling.

Either you believe that your marriage has no future if NC is not established and enforced..or you don't.

This is a decision that YOU make..then he gets to make his own regarding whether he is willing to recover on your terms..or not.