Well try doing it for over two and a half years.

I told my FWW that she should have been honest and not lied.

Her response was I didn't lie.

I didn't think it was that important.

Had a over an hour conversation regarding how she didn't lie.

Don't understand the logic. If I ask you a question and you don't tell me the truth isn't that a lie.

Anyway. Wish you luck

I'm with you on your definition of a lie.

I don't know your story well but Good Luck on the radical honesty. I think I've been lucky so far but no one really has a 100% way of knowing that, do they?

LOL! Well, since I have 3 small kids the 24 hr/day thing works as well!

Nice to know you too, LA. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yes, but how does the individual figure out what they need to know?

For me it's too late. It's all out on the table as far as I can tell (and I truly believe him). I've had the same questions in my mind for 6 weeks; that's why I decided to ask--they just weren't going away.

It sounds like the questions didn't go away for you either. So, is it better to know 6 wks post d-day or 2 years??

The only pieces of info I don't have are her name and what she looks like. I'm pretty sure that is info that I don't want, but we'll see, I'll never say never. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I've kind of taken the same approach. If a question comes in my mind, I wait and if it stays there and I think I can handle worst case scenario answer then I ask.

24..Hope you have a great Mother's Day. My H is working so I've got to get the kiddos up, ready and to church on my own!

when my husband had "left" me many many years ago for a few months and came back, at first i didnt want to know anything. But my mind kept coming up with all sorts of thoughts and pictures and they kept eating at me and gotten worse, thats when i told my husband he needs to tell me everything, he didnt want to hurt me and said it would be best if i didnt know. But i told him, what really happened cant be as bad as what has built up in my mind by now. And we did talk about everything, it explained a lot of his behavior towards me... like not wanting to take showers with me anymore etc. It freed him and the truth was, the reality wasnt as bad as the pictures i had built up in my mind. He was freed of the burden, and so was i.

I guess everyone has to know for their own sake what they need to know and what they dont need to know. If it doesnt eat at you, then all is well, but if it does... it will always be between you and your spouse and its best to know so you can deal with it. And i dont think it matters if you ask right after dday or a year later, if you need answers to be able to deal with it and get over it, then ask them.

It's been three weeks since D-day, and that's exactly what's happening to me. I asked something to FWH one day and he asked "Why to you ask?" and I said it can't be as horrible as the things I've been thinking about! That was a few days ago, I really got some things off my chest tonight but we haven't had the time to talk more about it with the kids and all. I'm hoping to do that soon! I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that way. I didn't ask for details, matter of fact, said I didn't want to hear them, but told him I needed to and was ready to hear them. Just waiting on an opportunity with no kids, safe place now. How did you take it? I would love to hear your reaction to maybe better prepare myself and anyone elses for that matter!

what he told me it did sting when he did tell me, but it felt good to hear that what was in my mind wasnt the truth. I had pictured him with her always holding hands as he did with me, well you know this eternal bliss kind of stuff. I didnt ask for any details either. But what i heard was that it wasnt all happy happy times, this took the affair off the pedostal in my mind. The more i heard the more i knew our marriage was far better than what he had with her.

At some times though... i have to warn you... after he told me something, it would eat at me for days.. i had to deal with it on my own inside of myself, and when he would come to me and wanted to make love or kiss me.. i felt disgusted by him and i couldnt do it. I did tell him that at this moment i just couldnt, and he was very understanding. But i have to tell you, after about 1 year i was completely over the affair, we didnt talk about it every day... the talks became less over the months, and i dealt with it piece by piece. After that year, i felt the same way about my Husband as before, and my trust was restored. He helped me a great deal and if he wouldnt have talked to me, it would have kept eating at me, and i wouldnt have been able to put it behind me.

Years later when i mentioned that time period, joking around or whatever as it didnt bother me at all anymore, he was the one that was uncomfortable talking about it. I guess he still felt guilty or bad about it, i have always told him its over and in the past for me. It helped enormously to recover that he did tell me even though he was reluctant at first.

He will feel bad telling you, if he is anything like my Husband, and it will make him feel bad when he sees you hurting because of it. But i did tell him thank you for telling me and that what he did tell me wasnt as bad as what was in my head, and that it helped me chase out the demons that were in my head.

It will be hard on the both of you, but in the end it will be for the better, you both will be able to heal.

Thank you so much! I know it's going to be hard on the both of us! I think we've come a long way in the 3 weeks since it's been out in the open. We talked last night and I started crying and he look on his face was hurt. It's good to hear that it won't be as bad as I've made it out to be as least I hope. He said in the beginning that he still loves me, he never stopped loving me, and that he loved me from the day he first saw me, which that started us talking about the first few years we were together. We had a good laugh about that! I think everyone makes mistakes it's just a matter of what we learn from that.

24give & Glad- I really appreicate this post, thanks for the insight!{{{HUGS}}}

March-- I hope you had a great Mother's Day. I know it's hard to get the little ones out to church on your own.

EOTR-- Thank you for your insight. I found that I also glorified the adultery and my H has told me over and over that it never even remotely came close to what we have together.

NC-- Like EOTR said, the new details have really eaten at me for the last couple of days. I think the key (for me) is to be open and share all my thoughts w/my H about how I'm feeling.

On Sat night we went on a date and I was just overwhelmed w/sadness that I wanted to die. Not in a serious suicidal way, but just in a tired of being sad way.

My H asked what I was thinking, so I told him. I know it is so hard for him to hear, but I believe he needs to hear it and like Orchid said above, he needs to be the one to be there and help me thru this. Later that night he was so sad and shared w/me his thoughts of regret and remorse and sorrow for what he is causing me to go thru.

Then, Sun night on the way home from my parents, I was really sad again. I was thinking about my H's grandma who died a year ago and his grandpa living alone now after 50+ years of marriage. It is so sad.

I told my H that I couldn't believe he was willing to throw away everything we had and that his grandparents had in their long life together. That I felt like a piece of trash and just not good enough and not special. That I thought I and our marriage and family was all he ever wanted.

When we got home, he needed me to comfort him. He said he was overwhelmed and that he felt like he has thrown away everything he ever wanted and will never get it back. That he feels I can never love, respect, trust and admire him the way that he wants me to. That he destroyed any chance of getting what he's always wanted in life.

I told him that in a way that is true and that we have to mourn what we've lost, but that doesn't mean we can't rebuild something stronger and better and that I can admire him for overcoming this huge obstacle in our lives. It was a great talk and the vulnerability on both sides brought us so close together.

I really believe that it is so important to share all the hurt no matter how hard for us or our spouses and that we have to realize that they are going thru something incredibly hard as well and that they need us to be there for them too.

I'm feeling much better today, by the way. You are all in my thoughts and prayers.

So here is an in depth answer to how it works. This answer is based on all of us being somewhat intelligent people. LOL

You have uncovered a lot of information on your own without your FWS help. They have given you some information as well regarding the A. Now once the haze and confusion has lifted, you will start trying to piece together from the information you have on hand what happened during that time.

If you are as I suggested somewhat intelligent you will start seeing some holes in their story. These holes will start to eat holes in you as time goes by. As you start to recognize these holes in their story it will start to make you angry. For me it made me angry for several reasons the first reason is that I felt like my FWS was insulting my intelligence. There are several other reasons that it made me angry as well. Most importantly all of the justifications, reasons or excuses my FWS gave me for her dishonesty. (ie, I forgot, I didn't think it was important, etc.) Made me angry. This is a huge LB. As long as you are fairly certain your FWS is not being honest with you there will be resentment on your part. Which is and always be an LB.

So now you will be in a cycle that will probably not end until the truth comes out. The cycle can cause huge problems with your recovery. For me what has happened is I know my FWS was not being honest. BTW I was right. So when I hit a trigger that reminded me of the A, I felt an overwhelming sense of resentment that I know my FWS was being dishonest with me. I would start to think about what I DID NOT know about the A. At this point I would start to withdraw from my FWW. She would then withdraw from me. After a few days she would ask "What did I do wrong now". I would say you haven't done anything wrong now. I am still waiting for you to be honest with me. This issue is going to haunt us for the rest of our time together. My FWS of course CHOSE not to be honest with me. So our cycle lasted almost 3 years now. This in no way shape or form has been helpful to our marriage.

Now we all know the reasons we have heard from our FWS about why they CHOSE not to be honest. Under every, excuse, reason or justification is one clear honest truth. They do not want to deal with the ramifications of their actions. They are the ones that made a decesion to do everything they did during the A. They may truly believe that if you knew everything that you will never forgive them or you won't want to be with them. This may very well be right but they have no right to mislead you. If you knew everything they did and you do want a D then that is a ramification they will have to deal with.(this being the worse case scenario of course) They chose to act a certain way and through deception they are trying to limit our reaction. This may benifit them but it does not benefit you or your marriage.

Now each time you find out a new detail that they have chosen not to tell you it will cause you more pain. Sometimes the pain is more then it was when you discovered the A. So now you are somewhat certain that more pain is coming because they have not been honest with you. Can you commit fully to recovery? I don't see how you can recover from something you are not aware of.

So you keep snooping and checking up on them because you really can't or shouldn't trust some one who is dishonest. Then comes the resentment on their part. You have or probably will hear from your FWS that "at some point you need to start trusting me for this marriage to work, I am starting to get tired of you checking up on me all the time." I made it perfectly clear to my FWS as should you that you will probably never trust them again if they refuse to give you the truth. MY FWS unfortunately thought that she could restore my trust by letting time pass not by telling the truth. So since D Day I have not trusted her.
Nor should I have.

I like to use analogies when I speak with my FWW regarding our marriage. I used this one to try to let her understand the importance of honesty.

We had a house together before your A. Clearly there was something wrong with the foundation. Our house was destroyed by your A. I have chosen to try to build a new house where the old one stood. I do not wish to build a new house on a faulty foundation because it will just come down again. The foundation needs to be strong to make sure when a storm hits our new house will not come crumbling down. Trust is the foundation of your marriage. So far you have decided to try to rebuild our house on a faulty foundation and it keeps crumbling to the ground. At somepoint I might have to make a tough decesion on whether or not I want to start rebuilding yet again. If I look at the same faulty foundation it would make sense not to build on it anymore. So if you CHOSE not to help solidify the foundation with the truth that is your choice. But next time the wind blows our house will come crashing down yet again. Sooner or later all we are going to have is a hole in the ground that really has no value.

I promise you if you tell me the truth and you are completely honest with me it will only strengthen my love for you.

Good analogy YOH,

I wonder what the WS thinks they will accomplish by being so dishonest, all it does is make the matter so much worse for the BS as well as the marriage.

I have had 3 d-days, I know it would have been much more painful to have known the truth 2 years ago but I think we would be 3 miles further down the road to recovery if she had.

My FWS's excuse was that she "(SHE)" wasn't ready... what about me? She didn't need to be ready, all she had to do was tell the truth and I was the one that needed to be ready, not her.


That whole oral thing, I don't have those details yet but I do believe that those sexual acts are more painful to hear from WS. They do oral and later they kiss you with that filthy mouth. At times I have not even wanted to kiss FWW for that reason, I don't even feel like having sex with her sometimes either, knowing that other men have been there with their filthy bodies.(disgusting). By filthy bodies I don't nessecarily mean not bathed but being the contaminant that nearly destroyed out marriage. Does it make sense?

Well now what do we do.

I have come to some peace in my life regarding her filthy actions. I did not marry a virgin. So she did it with others before me. Of course I expected her not to do it with others after we got married.

It also helps me to know that the OM was no where close to the man I am. He was 32 living in a basement apartment with a crappy job. What kind of Man would even be with a married woman anyway. Nice choice on my FWS part. LOL.

It absolutely makes sense to this betrayed spouse. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

But this feeling will lessen, right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

That's what I want to know. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />



I've tried this line of thinking too, but it just doesn't work. It's the whole vows and covenant thing that gets in the way, isn't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Since this thread is about details, can anyone share specifics on how they dealt w/overcoming the triggers regarding the details?

At MC last week, I asked the MC how I was to get over the triggers when trying to meet my H's need for admiration (which is what OW attracted him with).

In some ways I just don't want to say the things she did, or even make him feel the way she did, IYKWIM, even though I know I must meet that need in order for him to be protected from that weakness.

The MC said that I just need to do it. And that it sucks, and it will be really hard at first, but it will get easier with time.

Is it the same w/physical intimacy and OS? Do I need to just do it and keep doing it until it gets easier and the thoughts of the OW get less and less???

Well there are a few things to do I guess.

I am a different person today. My FWW finally decided to give me the radical honesty I deserved. It was hard to hear but believe it or not after our 20th D Day for the first time in almost three years I feel at peace.

I think time lessens the triggers. I did not have physical contact with my FWW for almost 2 months after the first D Day. I don't think I went that long without it since puberty. LOL.

I think they diminish in direct relation to how hard the FWS works toward recovery. The more they do for us to make us feel special and wanted the more likely we are to get through more days without triggers.

I don't know about what others feel but I felt like less of a man. I felt like I could be easily replaced. I felt like she didn't care about me. etc. The more she did to prove these things wrong the better I felt about our relationship. Unfortunately for her she was not honest with me so she had to keep starting over.

What do we do now is easier to answer. Hope our FWS understands how great we are. How important we are. How valuable our feelings are. How much they hurt us. Then start acting like the understand it.

24give - What to say to someone who hasn't been "at recovery" long enough to be able to "look back" at where they once were in the process?

(((((24give)))))

There is nothing "fair,", "easy," or "soothing" about Recovery.

Recovery, and all the "baggage" that comes with it (like the assault of the 'mental movies,' the thinking 'did they do this' or 'they did that,' or 'you want me to do WHAT!?' sort of thoughts), is founded in YOUR love and in the repentance of the Wayward Spouse. Understanding what "repentance" means is the basis for moving forward despite the very real and present pain that remains as a consequence of the already committed sin.

When Christ tells us to forgive, and furthermore to forgive seventy times seven times, He is "commanding us" not asking us for our opinion or telling us that it will be "easy." Christ knows the "cost" of forgiveness better than we do in emotional and physical pain over the SIN, yet He is focused on the sinner, not the sin. He is saying that a repentant sinner is NOT beyond redemption or beyond "starting over" and, like the flawed clay that God crushes and begins to form a new vessel from on the Potters Wheel, in His hands, in His timing, and for His use.

A forgiving BS takes the "same as Christ" upon himself/herself, that through the pain, anguish, bleeding stripes, and nails driven through their heart, they CAN forgive and they can rebuild from the ashes. Philippians 4:13 gives a Christian all the strength that they need, strength that they usually don't have enough "in and of themselves." Romans 8:28 is God's PROMISE to all who believe and trust in Him that no matter what the circumstances have been, or are, in our lives, HE will use them to work for good in our future lives. He "accomplishes" that "one day at a time." And God is faithful to His promises.

There is a reason we are told to only focus on "Today." The Past, good or bad, cannot be changed. The Future is not in our control, it is in God's control. All that God has given to humans to "control" is TODAY. We "control" Today, by our choices, the free exercise of our will, to choose obedience to God and following His teaching, or "doing it the way that seems natural to Man."

Yes, 24give, there is an element of "just do it" in Recovery, whether it is sex or anything else. We are told to NOT withhold sex from our marital partner except for brief intervals where we can devote ourselves to prayer, fasting, increasing in our study and knowledge of God, etc.

But we are to keep those periods short and not "use them" to unduly withhold from our spouse that which is theirs. It feels "hard to do" sometimes because the WS chose to ignore God and to step outside of HIS/HER provision for their needs....their spouse. So it's "natural" to think things like "if he/she didn't think meeting my needs was good enough, then I sure don't need to meet his/her needs."

Let me simply say that, as in all things, doing things in MODERATION, is usually the best course. One does NOT sprint in a race after sustaining a broken leg. First comes the cast to support the fracture while it is healing. Then comes walking to regain strength through use. Then comes jogging to begin to rebuild deconditioned muscles. Finally comes running to build strength and endurance and return to "peak performance as it was before the reality of the broken bone in the past."

IF OS is triggering you to the point of "revulsion" and reinforcing "negative" thoughts about your husband, then for the time being, find other ways to engage in SF. I dare say that about 6 weeks into recovery, your problem is more with "lack of trust" than it is with any physical act. You don't trust your husband yet, with good reason. Until you DO trust him again, after he has EARNED that trust over time and by his actions of putting YOUR needs ahead of his (including his pleasure from Oral Sex), you WILL still be having trouble dealing with the "memories and mental picture show" that right now is in Technicolor in your mind. Over time, and when you begin to regain trust, the film will begin to age and fade...losing it's color and strength...becoming a faded 'black and white'....until it finally still exists but is so faded and broken that it just sits in some dusty vault in your mind and isn't worth even taking out to see if it "still has the force of the original movie when it was fresh and new."

It happens.

Your counselor's advice to you is the same as what God tells you. Forgive and act as if you really mean you forgive. Keep the threefold promise that YOU make when you say to someone "I forgive you." Keep Christ centered in your marriage and on the throne of your life, trusting in HIM, not in yourself or in anyone else. HE is the Master Potter and He WILL form a new vessel from the shards of the old that will bring honor to Him and be fit for "use" by Him.

Remember the "triangle of Marriage" and the certain promise that as you both individually walk closer with God in your individual lives, you WILL draw closer to each other in the fullness of marriage in 'one flesh.'

God bless and strengthen you with His strength. May you rest secure in Him and in your trust of Him.

YOH-- Thank you for sharing your personal experiences, as painful as they are. I do believe it also helps me to get past the triggers when I share them w/my H and he reassures me and Shows me (not just tells me, although that helps too) how much he loves me.

FH-- Thank you so much for your very meaty post! There's so much there to think about and process. And I started going thru your forgiveness thread which is Awesome so far!!

I so much appreciate the broken leg analogy. I think there is a part of me that wants to rush the healing process along before I'm ready out of fear of this happening again.

It's funny how God works thru different people to teach me the same thing. You mentioned Ro 8:28; well, my MIL (who knows about the A) wrote out that scripture in the Mother's Day card she sent me.

And then my best friend reminded me of the story of Joseph and how he told his brothers that what they intended for harm, God used for the good.

Thank you, thank you for the valuable insights and input, everyone!!

Quote:
" Then we would have something that's still just ours."

24give,

Think of it this way, you still have something that's just yours.
You can't compare the experience he had on a ONS with the intimacy you two share and developed during this 10 years.
Only you truly know him <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I bet your husband didn't even liked the experience he had.

LW-- You're absolutely right. I try to think of all we do have together. 10 years. 3 precious children. I know that no one else could measure up and my H has told me so.

He didn't like the experience and he hates what it has done to me. It's so sad that something so meaningless has caused so much destruction and keeps me awake at night (It's 12:30 am here).
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />