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RH, everything I know about it, I posted above. I only know that it is very common for folks here to be advised by their attorneys to not move because it can be viewed as abandonment. You might want to consult an attorney in your area to see what he says, because it often IS viewed as abandonment when a spouse "merely moving out of a marital home, particularly to a nearby location."


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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There must be some pretty specific laws around what constitutes abandonment, thats why I found this sentence off the legal definition of abandonment interesting...... However, merely moving out of a marital home, particularly to a nearby location, does not constitute a fault ground of abandonment.

RH, thanks for your help! I live in CA, which is a no-fault state. Also, I moved in with my sister temp. who lives only 4 miles away. There are no minor children to consider (2 grown sons, 1 of which is still at home). I am not worried about any abandonment issues, but thanks SO much for your concern.


How could this happen to me??? --- Sooner or later love is gonna getcha BS -53 (me) WW - 52 D-day March 4, 2006 Together 35 years, Married 31 years
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ML,

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March, you are doing the right thing. Be strong and brave and don't let the rantings of crazy woman distract you. She will be furious when you interfere with her plan to SELF DESTRUCT, but that is what a LOVING HUSBAND DOES. He does not sit there while his wife destroys herself. He takes ACTION.


Well, I'm now back in my home. My WW is, needless to say, NOT happy that I am here. I told her that "This is my home and I am here to support my friend and work on our marriage." She asked me why I thought she needed support. She said she doesn't need support. I said "That's great, WW. But this is my home and I intend to stay. I will be here if you need me."

I had told my sons in advance that I was moving back. She asked me why everyone knew but her and that she thought that it was disrespectful of me to not let her know that I was moving back in. I told her that I didn't need her approval to move back into my own home and that I understand that she feels disrespected but that wasn't my intention in moving back in. I said I moved back because I felt that I needed to.

She asked me, "What if I decide to leave? What would you say about that?" I said that I would miss her but that she has every right to move out if she feels that's what she needs to do.

She said that I'm going to have to pay the consequences for my actions. I said what consequences. She said she doesn't want to be my friend right now. I said, "That's your choice, but this is my home and I'm staying."

She said, "So, if I have days that I don't want to speak to you, how would you feel about that?" I said if that's the way she felt, that I could respect that and would understand.

WW and I were forced to sleep in the same bed last night as my older son was visiting for Mother's Day from out of town. We had a 2 hour family discussion before bedtime about how we all felt about things that were going on. My WW said that she was again feeling disrespected at the end of conversation and went to bed. I came up after a few minutes in order to give her privacy to change into night shirt. I said good night to her. I heard silence in return. I asked her if she wanted a backrub to help her get to sleep. She said no thanks. I said OK.

BTW, Happy Mother's Day to all!


RM4


How could this happen to me??? --- Sooner or later love is gonna getcha BS -53 (me) WW - 52 D-day March 4, 2006 Together 35 years, Married 31 years
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RH,

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His family and I have chosen to do an intervention which is in a week so that is how I have chosen to help my spouse by getting him into rehab which actually he's been saying he wants to do.


Best wishes on that, RH. Our family had to do an intervention for my sister who lost her husband and was self-medicating with alcohol. She also has chemical issues with alcohol (personality changes, can't tolerate very well). She was a raving mad-woman during intervention, but next day she went into rehab and hasn't taken a drink since. Hope she can keep it up.


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I don't know if the people that care about your wife would be willing to do an intervention with you, or if she is at the point of being able to receive help, but it might be a good option either now or in the future. Always good to keep your options open.


I have discussed with my sons and they are on board. I think we will wait to see if this is necessary as I believe she is not at that point yet. BTW, they know about the drinking and gambling, but not about the A.

RM4


How could this happen to me??? --- Sooner or later love is gonna getcha BS -53 (me) WW - 52 D-day March 4, 2006 Together 35 years, Married 31 years
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March, great job on going home!

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My WW said that she was again feeling disrespected at the end of conversation and went to bed.

Was there something disrespectful you were doing or was she saying this to manipulate you? Most alcoholics are extremely manipulative so please be on your guard.

This is a major reason why Plan A does not work on alcoholics. They are manipulative and only use Plan A as an opportunity to EXPLOIT their spouse. They don't respond to Plan A in a normal, emotionally healthy way because her emotions are WARPED.

The things that should happen first is that you stop protecting your W from the consequences of her actions. By that I mean, you should expose her affair to your children and any other key people.. This will take all the fun out of her affair as affairs thrive on secrecy. Affairees are forced to see how they look through the eyes of others when others know. This is a huge, shocking wake up call.

If this OM is married, then his W should be told. If you have a pastor, he should be told. The WORST thing you can do for an alcoholic is help them hide their secrets. This ENABLES them to live on in their little fantasies. This might be seem MEAN, but believe me, anything you can do to interrupt her little scheme of self destruction is an ACT OF MERCY because these acts may serve to save her from herself.

Secondly, I would look into Alanon meetings in your area and see if you can get some support there. There are some other Alanons here who may be of great help to you. Pepperband, Bramblerose, LetStry.

Hang in there, you did good, MArch!


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Thanks for the response ML.

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Was there something disrespectful you were doing or was she saying this to manipulate you?


I made the mistake of asking her how she felt about me moving back in right now. This was supposed to be just a temporary separation anyway (she needed "space" and time to "sort things out" = word for word out of SAA for an affair monger).

She took my consideration for her feelings as a request for her approval to move back. Two days ago she said she wasn't comfortable with it right now (duh!). So, she wanted to talk to her IC about it and think about it (probably for the next 6 months she wanted to think about it). So, I knew she would say no and I decided to make an executive decision based on advice received in this forum.

That's why she feels disrespected. Because I didn't give her a chance to give her answer. Plus, the fact that I told my sons and didn't tell her in advance.

RM4


How could this happen to me??? --- Sooner or later love is gonna getcha BS -53 (me) WW - 52 D-day March 4, 2006 Together 35 years, Married 31 years
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gotcha! In other words, she felt "disrespected" because you interfered in her affair and her orgy of self indulgence! How dare you!? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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In other words, she felt "disrespected" because you interfered in her affair and her orgy of self indulgence! How dare you!?


Thanks! Exactly. This morning she is acting very indignant (the old cold shoulder routine) right according to the script. She's playing the part perfectly. Everything is an issue. Everything is a problem. I told her if she doesn't want to talk to me just let me know and I would respect her need for introspection.

Still not sure the A is still on, but I'm going to find out soon now that I am back in and have better access. GPS on car and Voice Activated Recorder should tell me all I need to know eventually. I have some suspicions. Like when she had to go out and meet her "lady" friend at 8:00 PM on Easter night for coffee all of a sudden. Then, she made it a point to come to me and ask me if it was OK that she did that when she never asks my permission to do anything. Hmmm.......


How could this happen to me??? --- Sooner or later love is gonna getcha BS -53 (me) WW - 52 D-day March 4, 2006 Together 35 years, Married 31 years
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RM -

I live in California as well and it's alwlays good to be informed of the laws since we have such wacky lawyers and judges here.

Glad your sister is in recovery and that your sons are on board to do an intervention for your wife. You will know win the time is right, and it is usually when things are unraveling even more in her life.

I'm still learning how not to be an enabler, it's definitely a process but sounds like you are doing really well. Alanon does help, there are some really nice people. I'm kind of a softy so I'm having to learn that whole loving detachment concept otherwise my WH tends to mock me in different ways; sometimes it kind of subtle sometimes not but it's emotionally abusive. Although he has said he's sorry, I know he doesn't have true remorse for the depth of pain he has caused me (hard for an alcoholic).

MelodyLane and Pepperband have a lot of good advice on the alcoholic issues and helped me to understand more when I first posted on the board. It's just a process so hang in there, God is in control. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

RH


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Thanks again for your concern, RH.

Latest update - The more she thinks, the madder she is getting right now. She slept in the spare bedroom last night and when I said "Good night" she didn't look at me or respond.

This morning, I was taking a walk (I'm still off work due to eye operation) and was just coming to our block when she was leaving in the car for work. I hadn't seen her at all yet today. I waved to her and she didn't wave back.

Tonight we go to couples counseling. It should be interesting as she has said she wants the floor tonight so that she can present some of her thoughts. That was BEFORE I moved back in. I guess she'll have even more thoughts now.

RM4


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RM, just hold your ground and don't allow her to bully you into leaving your home.

Also, do you realize that MC is a waste of time when one spouse is in an active affair? Your marriage can't even begin to recover until a) her alcoholism is arrested and b) her affair is ended. Those are your KEY issues here, March, and nothing else is relevant until they are addressed.

I fear she may use the MC as format to force her will, rather than work on the marriage.

Why don't you bring up the key issues of her drinking and her affair and explain that there is really not much else to discuss until those are addressed?

What is this MC like? Is he familiar with alcholism? How familiar is he with Marriage Builders?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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RM4 - you said above:
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She has her own credit cards. If she wants to run up the balance on cash advances, then I guess that's her problem to deal with.
Be careful.

If you own your home together you may be "connected" to her debt, for all practical purposes. She runs up huge debt and her creditors may come after any other assets.

You may be able to crudely monitor her spending - does she show up one day with a new car - and know how vulnerable you are. Suggest you seek real legal advice on this topic.

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Hi ML,

Our MC is a woman. My wife has her wrapped around her little finger for the most part. In our first session last month, the MC asked some questions before we started. She asked if there were any issues with alcohol. My WW said no, but that her father had a drinking problem in the past.

The MC also asked if the OM was out of the picture. My WW said "Yes". ML, I'm not sure if she's still seeing him or not, but there have been a couple of suspicious events since she said she wouldn't see him any more on March 10. For instance, she said on March 6 (two days after D-Day) that she had told OM that I knew about it.

Then, on March 13 (3 days after she claimed she wasn't going to see him anymore) he calls our HOME phone line in the evening! She didn't answer it. Maybe I should have. There have been other things that have been suspicious since then. I did see about a month ago that she had erased his phone numbers off of her cell phone directory, but that might have been a ruse on her part to throw me off track. She's not aware, as far as I know, that I was checking her cell phone to gain info pre D-Day.

Depending on how tonight's session goes with MC, I might have to make an announcement that the counseling is NOT productive at this point in time since my WW does not consider us to be a couple right now. M is just a piece of paper to her. But, she still wears her wedding ring.

Our MC is pro-marriage. Don't know if she knows anything about MB or not. Maybe I'll ask tonight but I'm not sure I want WW to know about this site since the details I've given will put a target on my back if she finds my posts.

RM4


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Thanks, WAT.

Yes, I'm beginning to think that's it's time to see a lawyer. I might have to file for D if she can't get this gambling under control in order to protect my credit and assets. I am hoping that my presence back in the home will deter her for the most part since the gambling really picked up when I wasn't here to monitor her. Time will tell.

And, yes we do own our home together. Funny you should mention a new car because I just bought one a couple of months ago so that we could commute separately. She needed "space". We had been commuting together for 1 hour each way for the last 15 years. I guess that probably was too much "together" time. It took its toll along with some other issues, I'm sure.


How could this happen to me??? --- Sooner or later love is gonna getcha BS -53 (me) WW - 52 D-day March 4, 2006 Together 35 years, Married 31 years
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MedodyLane,

Last night the WW and I had a very heated discussion. I asked her about something that had happened recently and she looked me straight in the eye and lied to me about it. It was about a gambling trip she took. Well, one thing led to another and I confronted her about everything she's been doing lately. She was LIVID. I said to her, "If you can't stop lying (no pun intended) then I'm going to file for a D." She said, "Have at it."

A couple of hours later after we had both settled down, I tried to talk to her again. The A came up and she said, "I think you keep bringing this up because you can't forgive me." I told her if I was given the TRUTH, and wasn't lied to anymore, then I COULD forgive her. I told her she needed to answer any questions that I might have, but I would try to limit them.

She told me that she knew someone who had cheated on her H and her H then tormented her for 10 years about the A. Finally, the FWW had enough and filed for D. This is what my FWW fears, IMO.

I talked very softly to her, "I can forgive you"..."I can forgive you" over and over and looked her right in the eye. She appeared very vulnerable. I asked her to hug me and she did. I asked her to squeeze harder and she did.

This morning, I told her I had a couple of questions and I wanted the TRUTH. I asked her when was last time she saw or talked to OM. She said 6 weeks, maybe longer ago. I said, "Do you want to work on our marriage?" She said she needs to think about it some more before she answers.

I went out for a walk while she got ready for work. When I came home, she had left this note:

"Just to let you know, my last conversation with him was when he called to tell me about a personal matter that he's been dealing with. The conversation was brief and had nothing to do with us. He's very well aware of what's going on and he's honored my request to not see each other."

Any thoughts, ML? Anyone else?

Thanks,
RM4

Last edited by Reborn_March_4; 05/16/06 02:01 PM.

How could this happen to me??? --- Sooner or later love is gonna getcha BS -53 (me) WW - 52 D-day March 4, 2006 Together 35 years, Married 31 years
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Ask her to put her money where her mouth is and end all contact by sending him a no contct letter. Her affair was absolutely disrespectful to you and that is the least she can do to make amends to you. Her reaction should tell you if she is sincere or not. I would also put a voice activated recorder in her car because I don't think her affair is over.


You are doing VERY GOOD by confronting her with the truth. This is very important in dealing with an alcoholic. Have you checked out Alanon yet?

By the way, counseling is quite useless when one of the participants is lying. She is in denial, apparently, about her drinking, so MC is even more than useless.

In the meantime, I would do what you have to do to protect your assets so she can't plunder them.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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March, is this OM married? If so, have you exposed to his wife?


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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March, is this OM married? If so, have you exposed to his wife?


No, he's not married as far as I know. He is only 23. He lives with his mother, supposedly. I have verified this with a background check on him. There is or was another male, probably a brother, and another female (brother's wife or sister maybe?) living in the home as well. I understand that the OM has a son who lives in a different town with the son's mother.

So, I guess there's a 50% chance he lied to her and a 50% chance she's lying to me. That makes it 25% chance of him being married.

I will probably be talking to attorney shortly to become award of all of the options and ramifications of legal sep. and D.

Thanks for your replies, ML! Gracious and helpful as always.


RM4


How could this happen to me??? --- Sooner or later love is gonna getcha BS -53 (me) WW - 52 D-day March 4, 2006 Together 35 years, Married 31 years
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