Both BS and WS are commited to (finally) start following MB principles, and start recovery.

The marriage/ relationship was very good before the affairs. Actually looking back all MB principles were there before.

As a BS I struggle without knwoing why H had the affairs. He says he doesn't know why.

Is it possible to move to Recovery without knowing WHY the affairs happened???

According to Dr. Harley it's a must to prevent it from happening again...

Is it possible? Yes. Probable? Maybe For sure? No.

You pick....this is quite a risky venture to hang your M on a mystery.

FYI: Most Xws say they don't know. If they did say what they do know......it w/b scary. Yet truth can handle scary and make it disappear. Lies on the other hand make the scary grow in many cases the imagination is worse than the reality.

Btw, mine said he didn't know..... but he did....it just took a while to come out.


L.

Well mine has struggled with this but I feel we have a reasonable answer to the why. How do I know that's not just my opinion?

I would love to hear your husband's reason why, Orchid, at least as a reality check for what is reasonable to accept as a reason. Got that??

It took a while to get the answer basically it was:

Main reason: To satisfy selfish desires.

1. In his case it was OW's lure to make lots of $$.
2. Try others to see if the grass was greener (<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />).
3. Sow his oats.

Dumb WS....in that frame of mind what he didn't realize was:

1. Love isn't all about sex.
2. OW's aren't all that great. She wasn't really rich.
3. The A world is a facade with the general purpose to destroy all that is good.
4. It may look like grass and seem greener from a distance but when you get there it is all weeks, with lots of thorns and thistles... the A ain't all it's cracked up t/b.
5. Stupid WS.... he isn't even a farmer..... can't sow oats without the real thing. LOL!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

heh heh.

Yeah, it all sounds so familiar except the $$, my hubby's best friend and accomplice was "dying" (he has a rare and incurable disease, but alas he still breathes). Hubby's beloved grandma had just died, and there was an element of hopelessness thrown in with hubby's estrangement to both his father and his only son. Lots of funky issues, and then the neediness that comes with deepression all that kicked off in him, and of course that was the moment when I was busy working/going to school 70 hours a week.

sigh.

Orchid- I have the feeling that WS did it for the same selfish reasons, he has always been selfish to some extent. Putting himself before me and he kids, now he doesn't see things that way I'm sure! I think he needs a really good scare! He's scare to lose me and everything he's works for, the house, etc. He doesn't want to start all over. I see no remorse, there's no need for him to "kiss my @ss" like he puts it. Today, I have a meeting with a lawyer to find out my rights just in case I need them. Hoping for the best, preparing for the worst! I'm waiting on SAA ans HNHN to come in, until then I'm trying to be the happy go lucky wife, and I thought about doing Joseph's letter! Any ideas on that? I really feel like I need to know why, I asked again about no contact, he says he hasn't called her or anything, but he did ran into her at the store before he went to work yesterday. She mentioned driving our son on a field trip to the school he will be going to next year. Yeah, she a bus driver! After H seeing her yesterday and telling me about it, I went crazy inside, called a MC and lawyer.

Lost Willow - Not only is it "possible," that is HOW Recovery begins for everyone.

Orchid said, regarding her own WS and their Recovery; "It took a while to get the answer..."

It takes much time and counseling and discussion and self refection to get to the real "Why" of the choice to commit adultery. It is rarely addressed BEFORE Recovery begins.

For Christians, the "bottom line" will come down to rebellion against God and putting "self" on the sovereign throne of one's own life, thereby granting themselves the "Right" to do whatever they feel like doing regardless of anyone else or any command of God "to do" or "not to do." That goes all the way back to Eve and her choice to believe the lie instead of the TRUTH.

For nonChristians it usually boils down to some form of "entitlement" that they think they are "entitled to" like "happiness" or "in getting what they think they want" because they are entitled to satisfying THEIR needs even if it means actively destroying someone elses needs, especially those committed to in marital vows.

But getting to the "bottom of it" is needed for lasting Recovery. If the "root cause" is not identified and steps implemented to prevent the "cause" from occurring again, Recovery will end in another affair or in divorce.

THIS pain cannot be ignored. It can be "tolerated" for a time, but it must be eventually addressed as part of the WORK of recovery. No sweeping it under the rug. But the "timeframe" to that point is up to you. It's just that addressing it is part of the "hard work" that must be done so that the future marriage will be bright and strong.

God bless.

This is an esp. hard question to answer for ltas.

Like you lost_willow, most of the concepts of MB were there 'before' the affair started with a ONS with FOW. We were in a good place when it started.

For a lta there have must be multiple reasons that allow it to continue for so long.

My h hasn't been able to answer why it happened beyond, "I was stupid and immature. At first I was flattered and it was exciting. Later it was habit."

A little of my story: My h says it started as flirtation the year before we married then stopped. Then four years later as we awaited the arrival of our adopted daughter, they had a ONS at a conference. He lost his job shortly after that and says he didn't see her for three years. It took three years for him to find another job. He ran into her at a professional mktg assn meeting shortly after accepting that job and the affair started. We adopted our son the following year. The affair continued (hot and cold) until dday 8 years later.

I read somewhere that affairs sometimes happen at "turning points" in life. I've wondered if my h's affair was in response to "adult responsibilities" and low self esteem. I don't know. Beyond agreeing that he was stupid and immature, I may never know why.

And i too wonder if we can truly recover without him understanding why he made the choices that he did.

hns

lost willow:



Is it possible to cure an illness without a diagnosis?

How would one prevent the same bacteria from attacking again?

Knowing why helps you understand and accept yours and your husband's frailties.
Knowing why also helps both of you prevent future situations that may bring upon an affair.

Of course, it is easier to sweep things under the rug... but the dirt will always be there. With help and willingness from both of you, it is better to sweep this out the door.

lost willow,

Same dang boat here! H has said things about the why, but hasn't pinpointed why. He is also having some trouble with what his 'NEEDS' are. Once he figures out the 'why?' I think that the 'NEEDS' will follow. I'm looking for time, patience and lots of attention and love from me to turn it around. Who took my oars in the first place?

Both BS and WS are commited to (finally) start following MB principles, and start recovery.

wonderful

The marriage/ relationship was very good before the affairs.

also wonderful

Actually looking back all MB principles were there before.

recheck your history... "all" probably is not entirely accurate

I don't think "all" the principles are ever at work all at one time consistently in ~any~ marriage

marriage is fluid

human beings are inconsistent and ever-changing

but

I think it might be fair to say that the MB principles were being used consistently ... but all of them all the time?

I doubt it

I'd have to be convinced by some very clever arguements on your part...

As a BS I struggle without knwoing why H had the affairs. He says he doesn't know why.

It takes awhile for the WS to find their own feet ... and then once they know where they stand on THE marriage, they can ~slowly~ process the big fat WHY issue ... and it must be done to re-establish the WS self-esteem ... and to better protect from future mis-steps

Is it possible to move to Recovery without knowing WHY the affairs happened???

Yes ... move into recovery without knowing why ... but keep the WHY issue alive until you are both satisfied it has been fully answered

According to Dr. Harley it's a must to prevent it from happening again...

yeppers

Pep

ruffled....that's what cancer therapy is all about. Causes for cancer are NOT known with certainty, but that doesn't stop the treatments or the fact that some survive and "beat it" and some don't.

For me personally, as a BS, I want to know the why so I can feel I have some control in preventing a relapse. As a FWS, I have to look at my why to avoid a relapse. And I ask myself, is there honestly anything that my H could have done to prevent my A?

If my H asked me why is had happened (which he never ever did), I could have told him. But it took me quite awhile to figure out exactly what the ingrediants were that set up an environment for my A. Is there anything that H could have done to remove one of those ingrediants? Probably, but I feel it is not his responsibility to keep me from violating every moral code I believe in.

Today, I know clearly the feelings that I had that made me vulnerable. If we were to move into recovery, I would like H to have that info. Not that he is responsible for preventing it, but that he might be sensitive to the atmosphere that makes me want to stray.

For my WH, I would love to know what atmosphere made him feel this was OK. Not that I could prevent him from doing it again, but I could be sensitive to the atmosphere.

I am probably not making sense. I am a sober alcoholic and I also struggle with a long history of depression. I know my symptoms of relapsing into depression. When I first get concerned, I literally put my support group on notice. I let my sister and friend know that I am getting funky. I can get funky fast and I have to let someone sane know on the onset. That way, they can help me moniter. If I start slipping too much, they can encourage me to get to the doctor to start on ADs again.

Same thing with the alcoholism. Thank God, I have not relapsed since I quit, but it is important for me to understand my addiction. It is important to me that people who have never seen me drink, that they know about my addiction.

So I am a depressed, alcoholic adultress. I never want to be so cocky to assume that I an immune to any of these issues. Could anyone stop me from falling off any of my wagons? Probably not, but they might be able to remind me to buckle my seat belt. I can go from normal to whacko pretty darn fast, I need outside support to keep me strapped in sometimes.

So as a BS, I would need to know when the seatbelt light comes on. I do not believe that it is a spouse's responsibility to keep their partners pants on. But, I would like to know when the belt buckle is coming undone.

We fear what we don't understand. It is perfectly reasonable that a BS needs to understand what happened and why it won't happen again.

I personally think that a FWS makes a great partner (because I am one). If you can come out the other side of the infidelity tunnel on the right side-you have a level of introspection that I am very grateful for.

Thank you all for your responses.

Yes, I believe deep inside he knows the "why" and is just afraid of telling me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> (At least his "why" now, because his previous "fogged" reasons for the way were pretty terrible)

Yes Pepperband, you are absolutely right, not all MB principals where there.

It would be more correct to say, many MB principlas where there.

I have my own theory of the why... no, not the WHY but a lot of factors that made him vulnerable. But, none, related with us, as a couple, besides his very low self esteem, work, family betrayal, kids, finances. Actually we were living under a lot of pressure and all we had was each other. We were proud that with all the problems we were still so much in love and nothing had interfered with our relationship.

But I guess you are all right, time. I need to give it more time.

We are both tired of this 4 months past d-day in limbo/ roller coasters, etc.

I was known to be a very patience person, I guess not enough when living the destruction that infidelity causes to everyone involved.

Jean36, I think you make sense, I am glad you found your "why" I truly believe you are a stronger person now. I wish my H will dig himself and tell me, not only for me or our marriage but because I believe he needs it himself.

Anyway, it's scary to start recovery without knowing the why.

I still think you should not push for this just yet. If your WH is still believing his rewritten history, you are going to get the wrong "why". I am not sure that, after four months, he either knows why is is capable of facing it - much less telling you. JMO since I am not yet in your position. I do think you will eventually need to understand why for all the reasons mentioned above. I don't think you need to wait to start recovery beforehand. I wouldn't anyway.

About that post of yours I misunderstood. I think you had been up a very long time. You came across as being very tired.

Lost Willow
Below is a post that I read from another FWS that had meaning for me in regards to the "why". Perhaps it will be of help to you.
Merlin2

OK all.....I may very well get flamed here. And truthfully, I am afraid to post my thoughts..... Please know that I am posting this only to give an idea of how things are thought of DURING the A - the SERIOUSLY FLAWED logic that promts us, as FWS, to give you those elusive answers. I am guilty of some of them - but what I am realizing now is that it's not those responses that are the true answers - but the explanation behind them.

I'm Natalie.....I think you are exactly right.

It wasn't about you - Speaking as a FWS, it was a personal flaw in my decisionmaking process that let me choose to walk through the door to the A.

Meeting EN's and radical honesty would most likely have prevented me from getting near the A. But when faced with the choice, it was my personal responsibility to make the right decision, and choose an alternative path. I chose the wrong door. Now I have to find those personal deficiencies and work through them so that I no longer have that flaw allowing me to make the wrong choice.

Compartmentalization - I posted this in another thread - it really doesn't make much sense, but it is the best I can describe how I compartmentalized the two lives....Just as I didn't take my H's feelings completely into consideration during the A, I also didn't take OM's family's. Nor did OM take my family's feelings into consideration. If you can imagine just being in a clear box. Where you can see things that are going on, but you cannot hear them or feel them - they are separate from you. Almost in another dimension. That is the curse of the fantasy.....

Yes, the compartments leak - the box is itself, inherently flawed. We can stop a couple of the leaks, but sooner or later, the box falls apart (by guilt and confession) or is shattered (by discovery). The WS will be able to feel and hear all of the hurt, anguish, and harm their actions have done to the BS. This is when the remorsefulness sets in...

I didn't think you loved me - OK - this one is really the meaning behind the words. It varies from situation to situation and has an interaction with ENs. If you really break it down, it focusses on the work think . If I think something, does it make it truth? NO - absolutely not. When I said to my H I didn't think he loved me...I didn't feel he loved me - it was my perception of his actions that I was talking about. In his mind he loved me - but when he beat me down with degrading comments, or made light of my deficiencies to our friends. He was not meeting any of my ENs. When I approached him about problems in our M, he would dismiss them, or say that he didn't think counseling would help, etc. His actions said opposite of his words "I love you." And my perception of his actions then allowed me to think he didn't love me or want me anymore.

Of course, it's much more complicated than that. Maybe he was meeting certain ENs - financial support, domestic support (yes, that includes his doing the laundry, vacuuming for us). But those were not my top ENs - so my love bank never got filled. My top ENs are affection, admiration, recreational companionship, conversation, and SF - with openness and honesty right there as well. He wasn't meeting any of those - oh, an occasional one here and there, but not enough to fill me up. So again, my perception was that he didn't love me.

Now here's the flaw. Maybe his ENs are those that he was meeting (at that time, we knew nothing about all this). Maybe he thought I wasn't meeting his needs because financial support and domestic upport were never high on my list of things to do....I gave him admiration, affection, tried to give recreational companionship and conversation. See the problem here? We were projecting onto each other what we wanted met for us. The perception then is that the S really doesn't love us - otherwise they would be doing for us what we are doing for them.

Completely FLAWED, mind you, but it's how my thought process was flowing at the time. Now that I have learned about all this, and have had time to look and dig deep into myself, I realize how flawed all of this is. But many times, we act on only the knowledge that we have at the time.....It doesn't make it right, though.

I just followed my own selfish wish without considering possible effects on you or our marriage - THIS one is the real cop-out. I did consider the effects it would have on my H. But I supressed those feelings and justified with the above perception that he didn't love me and didn't want me anyway. But there was always that nagging in the back of my head that thought I might be wrong - and he may really still love me, but just have taken a "vacation" from that. Hence my not telling him what I was doing. I knew (in the back of my head) that it might hurt him. But I supressed that and just kept justifying with other reasons.

If I had known it would hurt this much I would not have done it - This goes right back to the perception thing. Remember we said we "thought" you didn't love us. We weren't sure. I often thought my H would just be glad to have an excuse to get out of the M. His actions indicated he was miserable with me. And my perception at the time led me to believe that he didn't love me anymore. So if he didn't love me anymore, why would it hurt? It would just give him a good excuse. BUT there was always that little nagging in the back of the mind that he might still care. So I didn't tell. (A leak in the box btw )

Everyone on this board says that if your BS hurts, it means they care. My H hurts alot. I really didn't know if he would hurt - the way I saw his actions seriously leaned toward him being miserable with me - why would you want to stay with misery. But now I see from his pain that he does love me, and I can't stand how much I have hurt him. Seeing the pain, the hurt, and how much he must love me (even though he can't show it any other way but staying, right now), will prevent me from ever going down that road again.

Anyway, I hope this helps some. Please remember I am not making excuses or justifying. The ultimate flaw lies within myself. All the other things just would have helped prevent it. I hate what I did - I hate the person I became. I don't know if I will ever be able to let go of that. But most of all, I hate the hurt I have put into my H. All because of my flawed thought process.

I wish you all success in your recovery

sorry

the bad news is it will prolly get worse at times <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

but

the good news is

it will prolly get better at times too <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

rollercoaster, ya know

ups & downs

curves & dips

fasten your seatbelt

do not to jump off while the car is in motion

hold on

what you are experiencing is NORMAL

post affair anxiety

it is the anxiety you must pay attention to and not the pain

the pain will lessen over time, and the anxiety tends to increase over time

manage the anxiety as best you can ~without~ making it your spouse's job to manage your anxiety for you

(GAWD, I wish someone had said this to me at 4 months)

journal your anxiety

give it a name each day
discuss the anxiety with yourself in your journal

try

really try HARD

not to spill your anxiety all over your also-recovering husband

he's got his own thankyouverymuch

love and kisses

Pep