S1,<P>Success stories... Hmm, depends on the definition. I filed for divorce in July, to protect my access to the kids. Joint custody in MI. My W was cooperative, yet reserved about it. When details do come up she bristles quite alot, but doesn't say she would like any different. So it continues. We haven't used attorneys and don't think we will. I will tell you this, early on I did "A", then "B". Well I wrapped up on "B" and the rest of it about three weeks ago. <P>No, we're not together (she's on at least her third BF since March), no, I don't hate her guts. No, I haven't especially moved on either. But, I have learned to like my W, treat her with kindness, controlled care and reserved respect. I can't give you the key, I know that my relationship with God has helped, certainly. Maybe with that came the resolve, courage and confidence of being the man I want to be. I learned that all of the scheming, and "planning" can't replace true intentions and TRUE forgiveness. No doubt it is a painful process. <P>I would submit that marriages that fail and don't include infidelity, still suffer from the same malady. Look at what recovery involves, it's not simply a matter of the affair, but to succeed, critical elements of the relationship must be addressed by both parties. Affairs definatly complicate the situation. <P>What I am getting at is that I ditched the plans, because no longer feel compelled to manipulate things to the direction I feel is right. All I can do is treat her like all others in my life and let go of the hurt and bitterness. Not an easy task, maybe one that is never finished. I have come to understand that I cannot be the purveyor of justice. I accept my responsibilities for ALL that I am, I prefer those actions that make for true good... in all places in my life not just the areas where it comes eay. That IMO, is the true test of this. If you can become the best you can be, and they still go, you are left with a wonderful gift. No, not that you DID your best (I hate this particular cliche), but that you are DOING your best. <P>It's never over. Don't be afraid of this in life, that is life; appreciate it. I love feeling this way towards my W. I hated "B" because I felt like I was meddling in something I shouldn't. Don't get me wrong, the plans serve their purpose; I would be where I am now if it weren't for some kind of disipline. Now I am done, if she returns, I know that I am capable to be the H my W needs and the man that I need.<P>Off my soapbox ...<P>Eric32

Shattered1,<P>Thanks it was my pleasure to help and I am glad it was appropriate for at the time....<P>I think we all like to help so much in here because we all understand what others are going thru at their different stages of trauma healing and rebuilding....it also gives us comfort to know we are not alone....<BR>We try very hard in our own way to take the rocks off others shoulders so to speak...<P>All our collective experiences make for a lot of understanding insight and healing... and our hearts tho hurting can feel comfort from what others contribute here...<P>My personal thanks go to you all for my growth and learning too....and my love and understanding expands because of it....<P><BR>Your question of which hurt more for me...betrayed or betraying....?<P>Without a doubt being betrayed hurt like hell the most....and can say is the most excrutiating pain I have ever felt, lots more than physical pain where you can see whats administered and can watch it heal, but this emotional stuff is hidden, elusive, difficult to understand.....and for us guys its like phew!!!...what is happening..??!!!!I cant put a spanner on this to fix it...!!!Not like an engineering problem hey..!!! ??? The most intricate engineering problem would be easier to fix than this huh..?? <P>In contrast when I was doing the betraying I never thought about hurting her at all nor of what it may be like to be on the recieving end, I had no idea why I was doing it, nor thought about its consequences...a very slow learner one might say...so now I would say I am so glad I was forced to have the experience of being betrayed or I may have never learnt, grown in understanding and wisdom as I have...<P>A very important aspect of this also is that the terrible pain of being betrayed is related to time.... makes it more intense than the remorse pain of the betrayer prompted by guilt realization and discovery....<P>The betrayer has prepared for the separation (emotionally) for some time...they first think about it (either sexually, fantasy or flattery or by verbal or physical contact) and go thru the emotional separating issues related to this upheaval within themselves alone and long before the innocent H or W is aware there is anything wrong.... so they have more or less insulated themselves to what they know is going to a painfully upsetting time for their partner.... <P>They are mentally and emotionally prepared for it by having already adjusted to the situation in secret indulging physically and probably discussing it all with the OW/OM so have a huge advantage over the betrayed who finds out in one big thump...!!! the shock, disbelief, invasion of self and suddeness of separation and loss makes the impact for the betrayed so overwhelmingly and catastrophically painful making it something they are not likely to forget in a hurry.... <P>So its no wonder the recovery for the betrayeds is laced with so many tears depressions and many emotions that keep coming up...with the many reminders that surround us every day...kids, houses, clothes, songs, etc etc..you all know...<P>And the up side is....that this experience because of its potent deep electric intensive power of pain, motivates us to action, change, deep thought, and intensive feeling...makes us examine closely like no other thing in our entire lives could do with as much focus and intent,...... our beliefs, our attitudes, our past behaviour, our care or lack of, our needs, our understanding or lack of, our future, what we think about ourselves and a whole host of other things individual and unique to us alone.....<P>It motivates us to raise our self esteem, we cannot stay in depression...it makes us evaluate our self worth...it makes us more discerning about life in general...it makes us become more independent...it makes us more tolerant in out attitudes (we will hurt until we do as with any of these mentioned)<BR>it makes us beleive in ourselves more, makes us become closer to our God, makes us become closer to other people like here in this forum, makes us become wise thoughtful and understanding, makes us become better people....more God like....forces acceptance...leads us to enlightenment and tremendous peace....<P>So for all who are on the journey there are a lot of goodies to look forward to..it has not all been in vain and it will never be...one day you will look back and say...I would not change one minute of this...and see this experience as one of the greatest gifts to have recieved....<P>Where ever you are at the moment is where you are ...so in your pain, all this could be thrown out as the biggest load of codswallop you may have ever read right now...!!! and thats ok...when you are ready for it it will come to you..and when it does, never condemn yourself..you are in exactly the right place and time for your learning and its individual and unique to you, for you...<P>many blessings<P>cossie....<P>------------------<BR>To know who you are is to see who I am....<P>

Hi Cossie,<BR> You really are a wise person and very eloquent...I have to agree with you....being betrayed has to be one of the most painful experiences in life but I find myself getting personally stronger, more independent and less fearful of the future.I think when you have to face those fears of abandonment and rejection you become stronger.<BR> Shattered,<BR>Do you ever read the Divorce Busting Forums? There is section called Hopefulness and there are some incredibly optimistic positive people on there, (I think most are separated) ...one especially "Autumn " has some much positive advice to give , the address is www.Divorcebusting.com.....every time I get down I read the posts and feel more empowered and optimistic.....Lu

Lu - Thanks. I'll check into the Divorce Busters forum. Not feeling any better today.<P>Hope things are well with you.

shattered1<P>Wow, our stories are almost identical. My W's affair started early in the year, ended in July. The divorce marches on, unfortunately. The temporary insanity is very evidently lingering. She is "finding herself," giving very bogus explanations to friends and our kids about why we are splitting up (I hate the we; I have no desire to divorce). She is off building a career, socializing, drinking, developing hobbies - all apparently oblivious to the impact on me and our children of tearing apart a long=term marriage.<P>As many have recommended, I am moving on. I hoping for a late-in-the-day miracle, but I am expecting divorce and all the ramifications that go with it. It is so hard, but keep on. There is a God, and He wants to know you in this, and you know Him. I don't even know what that means half the time, but I believe it!

doc - Thanks for the reply. Wos, why do you suppose your W is still intent on divorce when Mr Wonderful didn't work out? That seems really bizzare to me. Typically, the betrayer comes home with tail between legs because they are so distraught and home is the only viable alternative for support. (That's the theory anyway).<P>Do you suppose your W is so embarrassed, humiliated and ashamed that she just couldn't see how you might want to take her back? Maybe the divorce is a pre-emptive strike or something?<P>Is she angry when you communicate?

Shattered,<P>If I knew the answer to those questions....<P>I suspect she is deeply ashamed (I think shame is a huge issue in the first place; she could not have picked a sleazier, more harmful guy to have an affair with and ruin her life!). It's almost as if our life was too good for her to handle. We had come through all kinds of hard stuff, financial struggle, sexual struggles, and were coming to really enjoy being together much of the time. Then, boom! The affair, the divorce filing, and she went careening off in a direction that left all who know her shaking their heads and out of breath. <P>Yes, she is often angry with me, though that has softened as the divorce nears completion. Biting sarcasm and strong feelings that she is getting shafted in the divorce proceedings have been difficult to deal with. But, that has diminished greatly. <P>It is hard to know what to make of all of that. Perhaps the affair has resumed. Perhaps the toxicity of the affair needs to run its course in her "system" for a while before she can come to herself. I am praying like a maniac. Thanks for your concern.