I also think Suzette or Susan (can't remember which one) posted in recovery once the stages of an affair, step by step - labelled 1, 2, 3....and by step 6 or 7 it becomes a deep EA...and 1 or 2 it's risky but not yet an EA then after 7 it becomes a full blown pa....i can't remember it...but the stages are VERY true and VERY good for everyone to be aware of how quickly a friendship can go the wrong way and why to never think you are immune or it's innocent...that you should always guard those friendships too....

Someone remember where that post is?

Yep! And can any emotional attachment be measured as to what they take away from your SO relationship?

If you are tied up emotionally, it is an emotional attachment.

My WW had an online EA for 10 months. When I found out about it, she said they were just 'friends'. When I used the work affair she said 'It's not like I slept with him or anything'...

Well, I have since come to find out that her EA became a PA 2 months after it started. She arranged to meet the OM on a 'girls weekend'.

Anytime emotions get involved, it's an affair...

Well I've been online for over ten years and one of my hobbies was conducted over the internet, I had two very involved hobbies and both of them involved computers, and one of my FWS's complaints were that I spent time online in the evening instead of with him. However he didn't seem to notice that I stopped getting online in the evening over two years before he decided to have the affair, and the reason I was gone alot in the evenings while he was engaging in his Adultery was because I was working 3 nights a week in class two nights a week and studying the rest of my time. Hobbies had both fallen by the way side by the time I went back to school

Furthermore, when I got my first computer I went into a "true" chat room once and was immediately propositioned, and I never did a chat room again.

However I was on a specific email list for more than 8 years, went to a hobby-specific week-long conference at a resort, (took my hubby along) and met some of my online friends in person, mostly ladies and a few gents from all over the world: Australia, Japan, Serbia, London, Cornwall, Michigan, Florida, Texas, Chicago..

One of my hobby buddies, a gent, started talking with me offline (on the phone). That particular relationship ended when I expressed my derision for another hobby participant who told me she had fallen in love with one of the male hobbyists in our group. They'd never met in person. I was like <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> what is up with that!!! He disagreed with my contention that it's stupid to fall in love that way.

I know my boundaries and some puff of smoke on a screen just don't cut it for me. I'm the type of woman that needs to be appreciated in person, thanks. I just don't get the lure of online affairs.

You know affairs are unreal by definition that the affairees never deal with real life issues and problems like how to raise the kids, figuring out the bills, getting life to run smoothly. An affair is a vacation from reality, and I do see how I might be vulnerable to angrily deciding I deserve a vacation from reality where someone licks my butt willingly every minute. But I guess I just see through that as someone blowing smoke up there. If they're not willing to go to the mat paying my bills, sharing room and board, and showing they respect me by wanting an honest relationship with me, (the old-fashioned "make an honest woman of me"), I won't waste my time or love on that. PuhLease.

Done with the vent, and by the way, hubby's busy getting our boat ready for the summer and I popped in while checking my ebay.

I think anytime you post and would be uncomfortable if your spouse saw the post...or conversation...IM...or whatever mode of conversation is being used at the time. Then you are venturing very close to crossing that boundry into the land of EA... or worser.

Well I would love to see a thread about "Girls Nights Out" and "Girls Weekends".

It's just not ok. I'm a fun-loving woman who likes to have a cold one on a hot summer night, or drink a nice wine with a nice dinner, or even have a margariata, a mudslide, or some other frozen drink at a little party. My husband and I have rules: one is that we never have a drink unless it's together, ever. Another is we don't drink alcohol on our boat. We don't drink and get on the motorcycle, or drive anywhere for that matter. It's all a matter of responsiblity and it's not responsible to drink without your spouse.

My hubby had a golf outing last fall hosted by his company. Afterward they had a light buffet at the "19th hole". Hubby invited me to come and meet him for that, which I did. There's just no reason to not be involved in each other's activities. That's not a Harley Basic Concept, but Harley supports it.

krusht-I think dr. phil said something like that as the litmus test for "cheating" in general. most of dr. phil's stuff sounds like what I'd read in a fortune cookie, but that one seems to work.

Dern. Cat's outta the bag.

2long - who'd you tell? You promised!

WAT

RookKev, long time no talk to... hope all is well for you and your family. I just had to jump in here and say that I hope that you understand at this point that it was out of concern for you and the other male BS that Flygirl’s strangely flirtatious behavior on the board was addressed. It WAS her being addressed, not you or HF. You guys were just trying to help and got caught in the crossfire when she was confronted? I dunno, don't remember. I do know you were really mad at me! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

Oddly (or maybe not) if I recall correctly, she ended up having an increasingly explicit sexual discussion with a creepy male poster on the Divorce board that got so out of control that she fled the forums or possibly took it offline. It was weird to say the least.

This thread echos the reason behind all the broohaha way back then. Would I be mistaken in thinking that you are saying in your post that the concern may have been valid? If so, does that mean you might not still be <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> about the whole thing? KB

you are having an ea with 2long wat? Shame on you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

15 Steps Of Unfaithfulness

Dorry, the above thread is very good and the one you were looking for. I’ve linked the above thread in my posts many times. It explains and describes very well (step by step) how betrayal usually starts and cross boundaries from platonic friendship into inappropriate friendship, from inappropriate friendship into EA and then eventually from EA into PA.

Now there's a visual that's going t/b hard to get over. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

L.

A simple way to tell where crossing the line from friendship into inappropriate friendship or EA begins is the following:

* If there is ANYTHING about the opposite sex friendship that is not 100% exposed to the spouse - the line has been crossed.

* If one keeps the truth of the growing friendship a secret from the spouse - the line has been crossed.

* If a husband or wife finds him/herself editing the truth or keeping ANY facts about the opposite sex friendship from the spouse - the line has been crossed.

Important: The above includes ANYTHING as far as what one feels for, says to and/or does with the opposite sex friend.

Therefore, if there is ANYTHING you feels, says and/or does with the opposite sex friend (whether it’s on a message board; IM, e-mail; phone or in person) you wouldn’t feel comfortable with saying/doing/feeling if your spouse was standing there right next to you - the line has been crossed.

An EA could easily be formed on MB - there are a lot of vulnerable people here including myself. Starved of affection for two years, it would not take much for me to latch onto a bit of male attention, and I would not consider it an A because I am NOT rebuilding my marriage.

However, I also believe that if a man and woman were to come together because of this forum, there might be the potential for a very rewarding relationship. Perhaps the best forum though for that scenario is the "After Divorce/Dating one. I'll try to remember that for the future. TT

2B, I'd wager that God knew. I'd also wager that the "problem" lies more with "entitlement" than it does if one is living a "surrendered" life. When the thinking goes, "I, I, I, me, me, me," instead of "You, You, You, thee, thee, thee," even Christians get into trouble.

I don't for one second believe that a Christian is INCAPABLE of sinning, but I do believe that God will knock on their door and ask if their actions, behaviors, and choices are bringing honor to Him as LORD or not. Rebellion against God is at the root of the problem, for both Christians and nonChristians. The "difference" is that Christians know it.

Personally, I think we spend far too much time as Christians talking about the Love of God and not much, if any time anymore, talking about the Fear of God. Wisdom, and the protection of the marriage, BEGINS with a healthy Fear of the LORD.

So when setting up personal Standards, not only are the chosen Standards the issue, but so is WHO sets the Standards. The "authority" rests with who sets the Standards as "sovereign" in one's life. If it is "self," then the "sovereign self" can change the Standards anytime they wish with impunity BECAUSE they are Sovereign and have the RIGHT to do whatever they feel like doing. If it is God, God is immutable and Sovereign, and we only have the right to obey His Standards that He IMPOSES upon us because HE IS the only true Sovereign.

So where does the "vulnerability lie?" I think it is most often intricately tied to one's personal walk with God. When God gets put on a shelf and only "taken down" on "special days" or on "Sundays," and is not a part of our life every day, we have "usurped" His throne no differently than Lucifer attempted, subsituting our will for God's will.

The slope does indeed get slippery on that side of the "hill."

btw, I also don't believe in the Harley's assertion that "everyone is wired to have an affair." NOTHING happens without God allowing it to happen because He IS Sovereign. We have been warned to NOT take our eyes off of God, and for a Christian, they are no longer "controlled" by the fallen human nature, they are a "new creation" capable of resisting human nature through the power of Christ. The "wiring," if you will, IS "Free Will." The ability to CHOOSE. That people are attracted to others is NOT the issue, not for fornication or for adultery. The issue is "obedience to God's commands."

Even for those who do NOT believe in, or accept, Jesus Christ or God, would following "God's rules" lead to adultery or to fidelity? To affairs "of the mind" and/or affairs "of the physical" or to healthy relationships with other?

"Choose ye this day...." is far reaching.

God bless.

Absolutely, ForeverHers. I never suggested otherwise.


I am a Christian, and I wasn't just a "Sunday Christian" when I had the A's. True Christians who follow whole heartedly after the Lord CAN be seduced by the enemy. And, yes, God knocked quite often letting me know my actions were not honoring Him. I can name many instances where I felt God was showing me VERY clearly that I needed to turn from what I was involved in. I chose to ignore His knocking. I tried to run and hide, but we know that we can't "hide" from God. I was miserable, and until I totally surrendered it all to God, did my life turn around.

Just wanted to add my 2cents here. In my case being a FWW and a BS several times over... there is nothing in my email I would be afraid of my H reading. I have very strict boundaries about not emailing privately with the opposite sex. There may be the occasional email, like when I called out looking for FAR just so he knew that someone was aware that his D had come and gone and for him to come back to MB. I don't email unless it is part of a group of both sexes. My H has my passwords and I have shared with him whom I communicate with. Trying to lead by example hoping that he will give me the same consideration. His first A began as emailing with an old g/f.

ETA, the email addy I occassionally give out here is a throw away. That way if someone begins to be inappropriate, I can dump it.

I agree TT. Like FaithinMe and I can't remember his name - they are happily married with a baby now <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's the EA's that form while the spouse is a WS...no divorce has been started, no decisions have been made...when the BS is in limbo. Make a decision - then have a relationship. Get the divroce, then date...and find someone on the boards who is in the same place <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> NOT married anymore.

FH, let me share with you a post I’ve sent to the In Recovery forum last week on this issue and my personal interpretation of it (you're welcome to share your thoughts):

[color:"brown"]This is what Dr Harley says about this:

”We are all wired to have an affair. We can all fall in love with someone of the opposite sex if that person meets one of our emotional needs. If you don't think it can happen to you because of your conviction or will-power, you are particularly vulnerable to an affair. And if you think your spouse would never have an affair, you are also vulnerable.”

From: http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5060_qa.html

I think it's important to keep in mind here that Dr Harley doesn’t say: “Anyone can have an A”. He says: ”We are all wired to have an affair.” There is a difference... Actually what I think Dr Harley really means here is that anyone can have the temptation to act on inappropriate feelings and have an A. This can happen because, as further stated by Dr Harley: ”We can all fall in love with someone of the opposite sex if that person meets one of our emotional needs.”

Dr Harley further states that:

”not all emotional needs are created equally. When some are met, you may only feel comfortable--they make small Love Bank deposits. There are others, however, that can make you feel downright euphoric when met. In fact they make you so happy that you're likely to fall in love with the person that meets them.”

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3300_needs.html

Therefore, even something simple as conversation and admiration by someone of the opposite sex can deposit huge amounts of love units and instinctively trigger romantic love for that person IF such things (the conversation and admiration in this example) are indeed a person’s most important EN’s. As we all know, there are EN’s that are not exclusively met in M and which can be met by more than one person (such as conversation) at the same time and this is where protection of one’s own weaknesses/vulnerabilities plays an important role. For example, if one’s most important EN is conversation – one is vulnerable towards regular day to day conversation with people of the opposite sex and must make sure than the spouse is the one who meets this need the best and most often.

Dr Halley says it best:

”Unlike the need for sex, conversation is not an emotional need that should be met exclusively in marriage. Our need for conversation can be ethically met by almost anyone. But if it is one of your most important emotional needs, whoever meets it best will deposit so many love units, you may fall in love with that person. So if it's your need, it's crucial to your marital happiness, and protection from an affair, that your spouse is the one who meets it the best and most often.”

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi3315_conv.html

If one had instinctively “fallen in love”, became attracted or developed infatuation towards another person because of a need that was met, one can still resist and decide NOT to act on those feelings. However, the fact remains that one can be tempted by the “in love” feelings or feelings of infatuation/attraction in the first place. So IMO what Dr Harley actually mean when he says “we all are wired to have an A”, is that no married person is immune against developing romantic feelings or feelings of attraction/infatuation towards someone else... Or in other words, no one is immune against receiving love units in you love bank from someone else if that person meets one of your EN’s. However, if one is cautious; careful; aware of one one’s weaknesses & vulnerabilities; have strong boundaries in place with the opposite sex; be on guard at all times; guard your heart and mind; stay close to God etc. the chances that this can happen is much less.

From my experience I’ve also learned to be very careful about how sure you are about yourself and temptation. The devil can come against you when you least expect it, when perhaps you don't even see the weakness yourself. Many times people are not even aware of their weaknesses/vulnerabilities until they find themselves in a tempting situation. This can also be explained by using the frog in the hot water analogy. If you threw a frog in a pan of scalding water it would quickly leap out in shock. If you put a frog in cold water and slowly turn the heat up, he will stay in the water until it’s dead. It’s very easy to cross an invisible line without being aware of its impact.[/color]