YEP! INSANE!

Try not to let him get you off track from YOUR PLAN with his insanity.

Stick to what you simply have to say and take what he says as being FOG TALK FROM AN ALIEN BEING..in one ear and out the other...

I bet no matter how many situations one has read here, this will become a classic.

Yesterday morning he said I needed to apologize to OW for attempting to mess up someones life. Again just the insane fog talk.

Of course I told him I wasn't the one that was sleeping with her and there was no way I was going to apologize.

LH, I think I'm going to babble back at him when he mentions it and tell him, he is right, he does owe them an apology.
We'll see if he writes the letter tonight.

It's still going to take more then a letter (which is a start) to show that he wants to work on us. I'm not expecting him to like be all over me, but I do expect some respect from him and this attitude of his has got to change soon.

I'm still somewhat surprised that he agreed to come over tonight, but still have a knot in my stomach not knowing how he is going to act. Yet, I'm still happy that he is choosing to spend some time here.

Trying to take babysteps here, get the letter first then start to reveal my additonal boundaries, (removal of all passwords, all mail comes to the house, NO PO BOX, MC, AIDS testing) but one at a time. I know to push him for everything at once would send him running.

However I am not prepared for a false recovery. It's either he wants to work on us at some point he has to be able to decide that or he doesn't. YEAH, OKAY, reminding myslef. BABY STEPS. THINK BABY STEPS. THINK BABY STEPS. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

If he doesn't want to grill out, might see if he wants to take grandson with me to feed the ducks at the lake. Might be a nice diversion. Something simple and keep conversation light.

You got it, Leslie. He'll have to work his way out of this mess at his own pace, the same way he got into it. Simple and light is the way to go for now. Excellent plan.

I bet I can top you on WH stories BUT this is certainly not a contest that I want to win...

He's still going pretty much by the book..

Unlike others, you have A PLAN!!!

Agreeing to write the letter will be a BIG STEP for him..it is supposed to say NC FOR LIFE...so focusing on that first and getting that done IS a BIG THING...

I agree with keeping it LIGHT AND BREEZY....

I admit to not being a BABBLE FAN..

I would just firmly tell him the truth. SIMPLY: There is no logical reason for me to write a letter of apology to a woman who is having an affair with my husband. Making such statements, calmly yet firmly, works towards gaining you the RESPECT you deserve...

Leslie, Mr.Wondering has added a post to my "How To Organize A Marital Recovery Plan" thread on the JFO forum. In it, he talks a lot about what betrayed spouses can do effectively and not do effectively. It's geared toward folks just starting out in Plan A, but it's good reading for any time. Check it out, if you want to, just by clicking on the link in my signature block.

Tuesday Night's Babbles by Me

He's here now working in the garage as usual, but I've noticed at least when I talked to him a few minutes he's not as cold as yeserday, still a long way from what I would call warm but small steps.

So far no mention from him about the NC letter and since I have already stated that he needs to write one and he had acknowledged it in his return e-mail I am not mentioning it again tonight.

He didn't want to take grandson to the park tonight but that's okay I had already taken my grandson out for Pizza and then to the movie so we were both already tired.

Thank goodness H wasn't hungry because I would have had to force myself to eat something. I ran to the grocery store for some milk and picked h up some cut watermellon and gave it to him since it's one of his favorites and told him, here at least try to eat something. Not sure if he will or not since I noticed the sandwich I gave him yesterday uneaten. But it's okay I'm still glad I bought it for him.

I took some algicide to the garage and asked h to tell me if it said to turn pump on or off (my reading glasses were upstairs). Anyway, H was wearing his spare glasses and said he lost his glasses, I said Oh, then he said Oh I know where they are at. (My guess is at OW's apt) I just let the comment go. I wanted to say well it's better to loose the glasses then to loose a wife. (But I was good and didn't) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I have noticed that since H has left, I have become a much stronger person and I will not return to the person I was. I will not now or ever accept a marriage the way ours was. Both of us deserve better. Somewhere along the way I had the misguided notion (I think from day 1) that I was never good enough for H so I tried to be what I thought he wanted (guess I failed on that) but I lost my self along the way. Never again, I like who I am and others can like it or not.

So while the way our marriage was indeed a tragedy, there is some good that came out of this.

Torn between LH's babble idea and MiMi's bold and direct letting him know I have no reason to apologize. I'll just see how it goes should he bring it up again.

Next week if I'm not in Plan B and he pays rent again, I'm going to suggest he move to a different hotel since the one he is staying at is conviently to close to the OW's apt. If I would have thought of it before he paid rent I would have suggested it this time.

LH, Thanks for letting me know about the addition to the forum, I'll take a look at it.

Oh, the babble idea is Orchid's idea. The differences between it and being direct is that babbling back can be fun AND it's hard to provoke an argument while babbling. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I'm quite certain you and WH can build a stronger marriage than you had before. The concepts in the last half of SAA can be applied to every marriage, whether there's an infidelity or not, to make that happen.

Sorry Orchid, somehow I never seem to give credit where credit is due.

I'm not opposed to the babbling. Orchid tried to help me with it. I just could never pull it off. It is so out of character for me and I don't think my H would have gotten it...

For him, it was best to be BRIEF and DIRECT..

Plus, it was a big PLAN A thing for ME to gain my H's respect without lovebusting...



Too much direction again, I think, Leslie...

I just know that I'm not comfortable with him being so close to where she is. Anyway, I did ask him if he paid rent at the same place or if he moved, his reply was same place because there is no other extended place near by, I never suggested he move, I just told him the location of another one and left it at that. (As I tell my son, you can grow a garden by planting a seed) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Wednesday morning babbles by me

H stayed fairly late last night but spent his time in the garage. At one point he was sitting outside playing his guitar. He is better at talking to me, (trivial things) not as cold but still does not seek me out. I'm not sure how late he stayed because at 10:30 I went outside and talked to him for a few minutes and told him I was going to bed at 11:00. Then I went back in the house. I was hoping he would at least try to come in and talk to me before I went to bed. However he didn't do that. (Perhaps guilt is keeping him outside?)

No mention was made by him or I about the NC letter other then the e-mail he sent me earlier that I copied in a previous post. I have already stated several times that he has to write a NC letter (even offered to help him) that I will mail to the OW. I don't think I should mention it every time I see him so I don't.

I am still working Plan A and worried and wondering if Plan B is the right one to take soon. I do not plan on contacting him today, just going to sit back and see if he e-mails me or comes over tonight. If he does come over then tonight he will have to be the one to seek me out. I will keep busy in the house. There are still a few more rooms that could use a good cleaning.

A couple of questions here, since I know what my boundaries are, should all of them be mentioned to H at once, or would that make him turn and run? While not wanting to scare him away, I do not want to wind up in a false recovery. Is it necessary that I keep mentioning the NC letter, or should I drop it and not mention it again until I go into plan B. I'm also thinking the best time to go into Plan B might not be on a weekend. I guess I'm wondering if it's to soon for Plan B or if I'm strong enough to follow through with it.

H has always been the non confrontational type that hopes that if he ignores things long enough the problem or the request will go away and things will heal on their own. I CAN NOT and I WILL NOT forget about the boundaries I have set.

3 words describe me now, Scared and Unsure.

DISCLAIMER: I know every situation is different. I would encourage you, if at all possible, schedule a session for YOURSELF alone with Steve Harley to get his opinion on this. The money spent on this will be well worth it for you...more valuable than any appointment with an attorney.

This being said...Steve Harley counseled me to stay in PLAN A as long as possible..until there is indication that your love bank is running low..

Whatever you do from this day forward, have a PLAN. If you are working PLAN A, work PLAN A..don't sit back..be proactive..THIS IS A WAR..YOU HAVE TO HAVE A BATTLE PLAN AGAINST THE ENEMY..as Mortarman used to counsel me...

My question to you is this: How can you set about evidencing your ability to meet his PRIMARY ENs..don't worry about getting him to fill out the questionnaire..what needs do YOU think that the OW is meeting...

I would suspect the OW is meeting the ADMIRATION NEED since she is so much younger. That's why I have been encouraging you not to be critical of him, to not be directive and to show appreciation. This is addressed in HIS NEEDS HER NEEDS.



So understandable, Leslie. Having a PLAN and WORKING it will HELP you with the anxiety and fear that you are experiencing.

Really think about talking to Steve yourself, using any extra money that you can scrounge up. I used my credit card and gladly pay that bill each month...

Mimi,

I know you are right as far as the Admiration because isn't that something we all enjoy? I'm at work now so can't do to much reading however I did go get the book out of my truck. I was glancing through the book and specifically where it talks about making a list of the Characteristics that I admire and the Charasteristics that destroy my admiration for H. How can I alone show admiration when so much of what he is doing is destroying the things I admire(d) about him?

For example,

Affection love it when he was affectionate, hugs, holding hands, kisses, cards, flowers, yet now I get none of that.

Conversation - he just doesn't talk, internizlizes everything. That is such a love buster to me.

Financial Support - I have always told him how I appreciate that the is such a great provider and that I am proud of how he works so hard for the family

Honesty and Openness- It's obvious here, so many lies , password protects everything, money in bank I didn't know about, etc.

SF - well that use to be good, not as often as I would like but still mutually satisfying. Non existant lately for obvoius reasons. - I had always complimented him on what a great lover he was.

Recreational Companionship - he has LB'd that so much that by saying I was inviting myself to join him in racing - even though I never went. We do have different interests here and I would try to find things we could do together, yet it never seemed to matter to him.

Attractive Spouse - Okay so I think I fit that bill, have not put on excissive weight since we got married, (was 140# before he left) down to 125# now, 5'6 so height and weight are in synch with each other. I admit I don't wear a lot of make up but he's always said he prefers the natural look, sure there have been times that I have worn comfortable clothes around the house (long t-shirt) but should a person be able to be comfortable in their own home?

Domestic Support - okay so the house is not always the cleanest because I try to do it on my own, H will vacuumn if he's asked, other then that he doesn't seem to do anything inside the house. He mows the lawn and takes care of the pool and of course works on his racing stuff. - here is one area that I haven't been the best at and that is letting him know how much I appreciate the time he spends in cleaning the pool, - guess to me that wasn't that important because I rarely used the pool.

Family Commitment - He is committed more so than I am in helping our youngest son, but he is also an enabler to our youngest son. He complains out helping him out but is always there to do that. Granted I have not been as good as that as he has because I have had to step back emotionally from our son due to the choices he is making. On the other hand H ingnores our oldest son, has never attempted to emotionally bond with him and is repeating the behavior with our grandson.

As much as I want to be able to show my H admiration, with so many of my needs unmet, it is something I am struggling with figuring out how to do this.

This is why I continue to encourage you to talk to STEVE. He explained it so well to me.

Plan A is not about YOUR EMOTIONAL NEEDS. As long as your H is involved in an A, addicted to the OW, he will not be meeting your ENs..a sad fact that has to be accepted. It is about EVIDENCING your ability to meet his needs. What can you SINCERELY express appreciation about? How he has provided financial support for his family in the PAST..how much he has accomplished in his career....



I acknowledge being an obsessive type / perfectionistic person and did go through the needs list like you did and then set about working on showing my ability to meet these needs..

It is difficult and like I said before it takes HUMILITY..Meeting your needs again will come AFTER WITHDRAWAL and DURING RECOVERY....

During PLAN A, the focus was on showing my ability to meet HIS needs...

He will not evidence that this is having an affect on him..but it did for my H...remembering the NEW YOU..during PLAN B..if PLAN B is necessary...

I continue to do these things that were part of MY PLAN..dressing up FOR HIM on the weekend, for example..he used to say: "You dress up to go to work but don't dress up FOR ME.." We have to face it and accept it..Physical Attraction is important to men"



THE KEY IS: What did you do to ATTRACT HIM when you were DATING...the same things probably are important to him now..Steve turned me on to this....and he was sooo right. these are the things that the OW does not know...she is playing it by the ear..everything is new for them..you KNOW ALL OF THE OLD TRICKS...

ETA: I don't necessarily mean to ATTRACT him just sexually...I mean to ATTRACT him to you as a PERSON...

I understand this part. However in the book His Needs, Her Needs, it also says HONEST ADMIRATION is a great motivator for most men.

This is the part I am struggling with. Other then admiring him honestly for how he has taken care of us all these years, anything else would come off as a lie. I don't want to say to him, something like I use to enjoy when ??? (referring to the past) and I think that would make him feel like I was pressuring for more (example affection - holding hands, etc)

It's not that I don't want to, it's more like I am not sure how to without coming off as being totally phoney.

In retrospect, I'm not sure what I did to attract him when I first met him. H was a loner then so I think he really just wanted someone to be there for him and act like he mattered. (Okay typing that was a lightening bolt moment) I am there for him now, I let him know that he matters to me, yet I don't want to suffocate him becuase I know he has some grief to work on internally.

I know for the longest time both H and I probably stayed together because our youngest son was such a handful that neither one of us wanted to put it all on the other person. In addition I think we both just got to "comfortable" with each other and somewhere along the line we began to think of ourselves as individuals instead of a couple. I am just as guilty of this as he is.

I know that H and I have a lot of issues to work out probably going back to when we first got married. However, this does not mean that I am willing to give up on us. I think we are worth the work and can make things better then they ever were.

I know you and several others keep referring to the counseling on this site, and unfortuntaly I have to put my $$$$$ right now where they are the most cost effective (electricity, food, gas, phone, water, truck repairs) and so on. I do not have the luxery of a credit card to put the counseling sesson on. In additon I have to set aside every extra penny I have to be able to pay any legal fees should H stop making our mortgage payment and the lawyer has to file papers requiring him to continue to make the mortgage payment. I hope you understand.

It's difficult dealing with a conflict avoider and I don't have any magic words to make things better in that respect. The thing is, before anyone can begin meeting another person's emotional needs, your WH must come to the table with a willingness to cooperate in making the marriage better than it was before.

I don't do humility and I've never been able to recommend it. I feel if one assumes a mantle of humility in order to attract someone, one is doing it under false pretenses and it’s at least as bad as the adultery it's supposed to address.

I think what is more important is for the betrayed spouse to set boundaries of common, ordinary respect for the betrayed spouse and the marriage, coupled with a recommitment to basic honesty and integrity on the part of the wayward one. Frankly, if you don’t have those, you don’t have even the basic requirements for a marriage and all else will fail because of the lack.

I always assume love has never died in relationships damaged by adultery. Even in the depth of their addiction, wayward spouses routinely say they love their spouses. I do think that love…and the feeling of being “in love” as so many wayward ones refer to it…has been overlaid with problems generated by the friction of being married and, now, adultery. With love already in existence, and the basics in place, affection (and greater expressions of love) will regenerate naturally as the couple reconnects. This is entirley consistent with Dr. Harley’s principles for marital recovery as shown in the later portions of SAA. It’s why, for instance, he recommends a newly reconciled couple go away by themselves for a lengthy period.

Another point: I always work from the premise that a betrayed spouse does not cause the adultery on the part of their spouse. The most responsibility a betrayed spouse bears is that he or she may not have done everything possible to prevent the adultery. This is important. I work from a point of view that everyone, including an adulterer, is responsible for his or her own lives.

With that in mind, an adulterer has to come back to the moral principles that guided their lives before the adulterer subverted them in order to commit vile, cruel, self-indulgent atrocities in their marriage with their loving mate as the target. If the betrayed spouse does not insist the wayward spouse recommit to basic personal responsibility first, I’m not sure any show of affection or overt attempts to attract the wayward one are useful in most cases. I think it’s best to follow the precepts of Plan A as expressed in SAA. If the betrayed spouse makes himself or herself a more attractive spouse by becoming the “best they can be,” that’s all they can do.

With those thoughts in mind, Leslie, I think it’s monumentally important you continue to be adamant about the boundaries you set. They are, after all, simply the things every successful marriage has as their basis. Don’t negotiate them down to anything less than they are and don’t ever back down on them. It’s far too important. You will find ways to reconcile with them in place--ways to do what you can to meet his emotional needs and for him to meet yours in a natural way--when integrity is again the foundation of your relationship.

Your Plan B letter, when it comes, should give him the basic requirements you must have in order to begin the process of reconciliation and recovery. The NC letter, and a commitment to actual NC, are only the first steps and your letter shows that. If you tell him of the other things, I think you must pick and choose them carefully. If you show too many, you overwhelm the letter with details and him with too much information to absorb at one time.

He knows about NC now. I think you’re right; you don’t need to constantly refer to it. If it wasn’t on his mind, he wouldn’t be spouting these ridiculous words about you apologizing to OW. Perhaps a “wait and see” posture is best for a while. You have lots of time, Leslie. There’s no clock running on this recovery, right?

And that leads to when one begins Plan B. I think if there are favorable signs from the wayward spouse Plan A is having it’s intended effect, perhaps you can delay Plan B for a while. That assumes your love for WH is not suffering and your energy level remains high. Plan A IS enervating and stressful. You can’t do it forever because even being polite and courteous to someone who has hurt you creates frustration that rises slowly to a level where you can no longer suppress it.

But…if you see your WH is slowly coming to a realization he wants to come home and work with you, then by all means, delay the implementation of Plan B. In your husband’s case, the mere fact he’s coming around so often, staying so late, and actually communicating with you seem to be hopeful signs. They won’t be sufficient in the long run, and if they do not continue to progress to a higher level, you’ll have to reevaluate, but they are an improvement over last week, right?

It’s what you need, what you see, and what you feel, Leslie. If you can, and if you see any advantage to continuing Plan A for just a little longer while you appraise where WH is and what is going on in his mind, don’t hesitate to do it.

I think it’s good for you to take a day off today and not contact WH. If you’re seen as pursuing him, his motivation to return to you and the marriage is lessened because he knows you’re always dangling out there, available whenever he finds it convenient to let you back into his life.

Being scared and unsure, but doing what one must is the very definition of courage, Leslie. It’s applicable whether you’re talking about a soldier in deadly combat, or a betrayed spouse fighting to recover a marriage. You’re doing a great job, Lady. Don’t doubt it for a moment.

I've been sharing with you how I was counseled by Steve Harley in working towards Recovery with a FWH who sounds alot like your H.

No offense to you, Longhorn, because you seem very wise but you are not advising Leslie regarding the MarriageBuilders' approach.

Leslie, I've been helping you with PLAN A which, IMO, DOES involve HUMILITY in addition with gaining your WH's RESPECT. They can go hand in hand.I did this and it was extremely EFFECTIVE!! Maybe HUMILITY is the wrong word..but it does seem to describe what I was doing during PLAN A..

You want to be careful at this point not to throw your H back into the arms of the OW when he is making steps TOWARDS you...

PLAN B may be in the offing..even as soon as Friday..however, I still say PLAN A and then PLAN B...

Ignoring him today is not at all recommended, IMO....

His last memories of you before going into PLAN B should be ALL POSITIVE..so that he will miss you in those MIDNIGHT HOURS when he may be captive in his HE!! with the OW...

LH,

Thank you for your reply I so needed it. Yes I do see baby steps from H at least in the sense that he spending time at the house. While he is not seeking me out, his being there is still more then he was doing a week ago.

I had also come to the conslusion that as long as I see the baby steps I will not implement Plan B. I will only go to Plan B when one of the following occurs: A) He has contact with OW, B)When I no longer have the strength to continue in Plan A.

I made a conscious decision this morning when I got up that I was not going to initiate contact with H today. And so far I haven't. (Strange though it's harder to not contact him now then it was when he first left)

I also agree that H must show a willingness to committ to the marriage. I spent to many years of my life being what I thought he wanted me to be that in the mean time I lost myself. I can not give false admiration no matter the cost of not doing so. I have made a promise to myself that I will be true to myself and if I gave the false admiration I would keeping the promise I made to myself.

I do belive that the OW was giving my H the admiration that he was missing. However if I want our marriage to be better then before then H and I BOTH need to step up to the plate and be the spouse that we each think the other deserves.

I know he is doing some grieving right now and I accept for the time being that he is not willing to make the changes he must make. This will work for NOW, but not for ever. I still believe that if the OW contacted him he would run back to see her in a heartbeat, so until he can sort that out for himself, all I can do is show him what he will be missing should he choose to not stay in our marriage.

I know this may wind up costing me my marriage, however if that is the case I will come to terms with it, but I hope never have to.

I have my boundaries set in place and H is aware of the first one which was the NC letter. I will not budge on needing that. Once that is done, I will then start to mention the other boundaries I don't feel any of them are out of line and are simply things I think should be in any marriage.

Hope that wasn't to much babbling.

I'm sorry you feel that way, mimi. I reread SAA last night (yes, I DO read that fast) and I'm comfortable I am following Dr. Harley's principles as he wrote them.

Leslie deserves to hear your take on things as well as mine. Please keep posting so Leslie is able to choose what is best for her, okay?

MiMi,

You are often so right on target and it sounds like you went through a lot of same things with your H.

I think today I am just tired. I don't have it in me to contact H. So at least for today he needs to be the one to initiate contact. (I think he will though).

Part of it is that plan A is taking so much from me (and while it's not about me right now) Don't get me wrong I do want to see him, but I am TIRED. Tired of being the one to do everything, TIRED of the way he does not try to seek me out, TIRED of his avoidance, JUST PLAIN TIRED. Does this mean I am giving up? No, I can answer that, it simply means I need to step back for a day and allow myself some time to recoup.

I agree with you MiMi about gaining H's respect but in the long run I have to respect myself first. If I can accomplish both then that is beyond awesome. That's what I'm shooting for. H is a very smart man and would know in a heartbeat if I wasn't being sincere.

Please keep sharing your expierence and tips with me, and while I may not see the wisdom in all of them, there are many that I follow. If nothing else a lot of your thoughts make me stop and think and try to see things from a different point of view. To me that makes your postings very valuable if even one of them makes me stop and think.

Again thank you MiMi