Longhorn:

I read back over your post and will discuss with you the points that I have concerns about.



I'll mainly speak from my experience although my experience probably fits with many others. A WS, in the throes of what I experienced as an addiction to the OW with my H, is not coming to the table ready to work on meeting my needs. That would have been a MIRACLE. My H was in a fog, an alien being, totally lost, temporarily insane, crazy "in love" with the OW. He wasn't really READY to come to the table until AFTER his WITHDRAWAL from the OW. It kept getting better and better each day but it took a full 6 months of absolutely NC with her before he seemed like a normal human being who could think rationally.



I wasn't recommending being humble in order to attract her H. I was recommending evidencing her ability to meet his ENs. That will take personal humility on her part but she will not be viewed as being humble by her H. The key is for her to be viewed as loving him enough to continue to work on their marriage..to not just give him up to the OW.



NOPE. NO WAY. One of Steve Harley's major reassertions is LOVE IS A VERB. Read back through SAA, it clearly states that the ACTIONS create a FEELING OF LOVE..This is a major MB Principle!!



I TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS!!



Check back again in SAA. I don't have it here but I used it just like a BIBLE. It specifically recommends evidencing the ability to meet the WS' needs. It does not say just be the best you can be. That's why Steve Harley recommends spouses in counseling with him to fill out the questionnaires. He helps BSes come up with SPECIFIC PLANS. He told me THIS IS YOUR PLAN. THIS IS WHAT YOU SPECIFICALLY NEED TO DO!! This is how I've been trying to help, Leslie. I wish she could speak with him. (Leslie, I understand about your financial situation, though. First things first.)



OK. I see your point here..don't contact him unless he contacts you.

And yes..I certainly agree..Leslie is doing a GREAT JOB!!

Mimi, I think you're just as good a person as you possibly can be. As I said above, please keep on posting your opinions.

Longhorn:

I had to go run an errand and couldn't wait to get back to tell you how sorry I am for being so dogmatic in my post!!

I, JUST LIKE YOU... AND EVERYONE ELSE HERE...HATE AFFAIRS SOOOOO MUCH that I get "caught up" sometimes...

Sorry...

I TOTALLY AGREE THAT LESLIE CAN PROFIT FROM ALL OF OUR DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES IN THIS COMMUNITY!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Feeling down tonight. No word from H. Extremely tired, but to wound up to think. Thoughts in my brain are running around a million miles a minute and I'm to tired to try to make sense of any of them.

I keep hoping he will show up but I know if he was going to he would have by now. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Part of me is just thinking F it, I can't go through this everyday.

Sorry for being so "down" tonight. Trying to keep busy here but not managing to get anything done. I sit and just stare at the t.v., tried to clean up around the house, pick something up and take it to it's rightful room, but then find I've taken it to the wrong room. Went out for a little bit just to get away and forget, didn't work.

I know he won't call, he hasn't before today so not expecting tonight to be any different. Replaying everything from last night in my mind, can't find where I did any LB'g, sitting here hoping he's just tired tonight like I am.

Oldest son told me that when he came home from work this morning around 12:30 a.m. H was sleeping in the car. The car was gone when I got up so no idea what time he left. I've noticed though he won't come in the house when he comes over, not even to get his mail that's on the table. Is guilt keeping him from coming in the house?

I was trying to think why I'm feeling so down tonight and I guess it's cause I saw slight imporovment in H yesterday and now it feels like he's slipping away again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Maybe my feelings about him are similar to his in what he's feeling for OW?

Well H is here but the only way I knew was looked outside and saw his car. He is in the garage working on his go kart engine. If he would spend even a quarter of the time with me that he spend working on his engines part of our problems wouldn't be issues.

I went out and told him hello and a few minutes of idle chit chat, but beyond that if he wants to talk to me tonight he's going to have to seek me out. I just don't have the energy tonight to do it all alone.

H still hasn't gotten his glasses that were left at OW's apartment so that is good sign that he has not been over there. I asked him if he wanted me to get them for him, he said NO, it's time for a new eye exam he'll get another pair then. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I still don't trust that he will stay away from OW. He still has not brought up writing the NC letter yet. I'm not going to mention it either. I'm not going to change my mind on it. I know he's hoping that if he doesn't say anything about it that I will forget about it, but he's going to find that this is ONE thing that won't go away.

Sorry you're seeing one of those down spots, Leslie. I’m afraid it'll be a rollercoaster with highs and lows for a while. I think letting him ponder things will be good for him. Look forward to the next improvement. It could be tomorrow.

If there are no signs of improving in the next couple of days, perhaps it will be time to consider exposing to another group of people?

Right now don't see the need to expose further since I have no evidence of further contact with OW. The exposure was to break him and OW up so until and unless there is additonal knowledge of them contacting each other or seeing each other again, don't see any purpose of it.

Okay, sounds good. I hadn't seen your comment about the glasses when I put that last post in. You've got a good grasp of the things you need to do. Kudos.

Put your husband on the back burner and go clean those toilets. Check out flylady.com for tips on doing things quickly and easily. You are going to drive yourself crazy.
You should be in no hurry - your husband is the one that needs a place to live.

Well I figured out why I was so uneasy last night. I must have been coming down sick. We had painters at the office all day yesterday (still there today) so I came home.

Yesterday, I guess between the paint fumes, the issues going on in my life, and not eating much lately, it all got to me. I felt dizzy walking down the stairs, had to lay on the floor while grandson was in the tub and then when I went to bed, it kept feeling like the bed was spinning around.

Feeling better somewhat this morning, just tired. Since I'm home now, I'm going to try to get some sleep before I have to pick up grandson this afternoon.

I called the counselor yesterday and tried to get an appointment but he said he has five people on his waiting list. I told him I might be one of the five since I had called his office a few weeks back. He promised to check the list and see if I was. He called back and I am one of the five so he is ready to set up an appointment. I just need to check H's availability. This counselor wants to talk to us both at the same time. The bad thing is the counselor will be unavailable for a good part of July and August, but I am hoping if nothing else to at least get us started in counseling and who knows maybe the counselor can help get us started on the right track. (I'm waiting for H to reply to my email on when he's available to start counseling)

I hope the day comes that I feel I can trust H again. I just don't feel I can go through life not trusting. He still has not written the NC letter. Part of it I think is that he's always been a conflict avoider so I'm sure that he is hoping that as long as I haven't kept asking for it that I will forget about it and he can get out of doing it. I was trying not to mention the NC letter but for my own piece of mind I think I'm going to have to bring it up again.

Bringing it up again is OK..part of the negotiation process.

Hope you get to feeling better...

Sure, Leslie. The recovery cannot make any progress until he accepts the concept of NC and agrees to write that letter. Since that is the case, you do need to continue to bring the boundary of NC up where you can. Until he comes to the table ready to discuss it, there's not much else you can do.

Paint affects me the same way it does you so I feel for you, having to put up with it in the office. Be very careful with it and see a doctor if the symptoms persist, okay?

Sent the email to H almost 3 hours ago asking when he is available to start counseling. Still no reply. I could try to guess several reasons he's not replying, but I don't think the reasons really matter. (not trying to be cold and uncaring in saying that). It's simply meant that if he wants to stay married to me then we have to get in counseling.

So tonight is the night. Not sure how it's going to go but very simply I'm going to let him know once again the NC letter letter is a boundary of mine. In addition I am going to find out what his opposition to going to counseling is. I believe the answers to those two things will give me a clearer picture of if he even wants to be a partner in our marriage.

I don't belive he is still seeing the OW. I still don't trust him though. I belive if she were to call him he would go running right back to her. (Hurts like heck to feel like I am second best to the man I married)

Hopefully tonight won't be a big Love Buster night. I will do my best in the way I bring the NC letter and counseling up to keep it from turning into one. Regardless if it does though, those two things will be addressed tonight if he comes over. He may simply avoid coming over tonight since I had emailed him about counseling.

I have tried to build his LB up all week since the latest exposure and hope I don't delete it tonight.

Someone once posted here (not quoting names anymore since I always give credit to the wrong person) that as long as OW in picture there is no marriage. I am adding to that to read like this, "As long as there is OW and or no counseling in picture there is no marriage"

Right now even though H spends a great deal of his evening here, and the OW appears to be out of the picture we have not even started to work on US. Until we can do that then the possibilities of him returning to OW or another affair are to great.

OW still is a third person intruding into your marriage because WH has not committed to NC. Your feelings are entirely valid in that respect. A marriage is between one man and one woman and all others are excluded, period. Until her unseen presence is removed, you and WH don’t have a marriage.

I think your insistence on MC is a wise one. There will be others who disagree. It’s not usually considered one of the deal breaker boundaries. Actually, I usually advocate dealing with the adultery exclusively first, then tackling the contributing weaknesses in the relationship. In your marriage, though, I think I see his lack of communicative skills has severely crippled the marriage already. If he continues down that path, the chances for recovery are considerably less than they would be otherwise. I think you're right to go with your instincts, Leslie.

Still no reply from H on email so I called him. I'm sure he thought it was our son calling since I'm usually not home at this time but he answered the phone. He didn't sound happy to talk to me on the phone though. I asked him if he got my email and he said yes, that he just hadn't had time to answer it yet. Not buying his answer because it was a simple email asking what his availability times were for counseling. (I pick and choose my battles so I let that one go). He said he can go anytime. I then asked do you want to go (meaning to counseling) he said yeah. Not like he was excited about it but I'll take it anyway.

Tried to call the counselor to set up the appointment but he's out of the office so left a message for him to call me back. Hopefully before the day is over I'll have that taken care of. Even though my gut tells me this is a good counselor I'm starting to wonder if he is going to be the right one. The counselor already told me that he was going to be unavailabe for most of July and August. Now the delimia do I go with this one, and wind up having to start all over again when he's not available or do I just search for another one? Wow, amazing when one sees their text on paper how it encourages us to answer our own questions. I just called another counselor (granted he's out of the office, geeze what's with these counselors) and I left a message for him to call me. I want to ask him a few questions then I'll make my decision on which one to go with. I know H isn't going to like that I'm picking a male counselor. WOW, 2nd counselor called back, I really like him. He was easy to talk to on the phone and seems so marriage oriented and he's available. I also asked him if he gives assignments (which is somthing I think we need) and he said YES. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I actually am feeling some hope here. Now I just have to make H understand how important the NC letter is.

I asked H if he was coming over tonight, he said YES. So my plan to once again let him know that the NC letter is a boundary issue with me. I'm not sure how he's going to take that but it's something I belive is necessary. Just not sure of timing on this (if I do it when he first gets here he's liable to leave, if I wait till later then he's going to be to tired to deal with it). I'm not even sure how the heck I'm going to word it to him how important the NC letter is. Guess I'll get out the SAA and see if there is something in there I can use as an example. How do I word to him that the NC letter is a boundary of mine?

The first counselor, if you really want to see him, will probably suggest another counselor (who shares his views) who would take over for him while he's gone. If the second one you've found is just as good, and he's experienced with the difficulties of infidelity, sounds like you've found an excellent option.

NC as a concept is your boundary. It's that he needs to commit to. The letter itself is a symbol of that commitment. Secondly, it serves to notify the other person the wayward spouse is making a final break with them and tells them why. It’s that well-known “closure” thing.

Now, as to how to get him to write it, that’s a toughie. He may agree to it in front of a counselor who won't let him make nonsensical statements. If he tries to negotiate, he’s offered up a bogus alternative in which you “apologize” to OW and her father for bringing up his adultery with them. He may change that somewhere along the line to an offer to do the NC letter if you apologize to them…a quid pro quo. If you want to compromise on that, there are ways you could word such an apology so you don’t really apologize.

How about, “Dear Sir, I sincerely and deeply regret the necessity of having had to bring up your daughter’s part in my husband’s adultery last week…” You can add any amount of flowery phrases around that central statement. That says nothing at all of any substance, but WH might accept it without comment as a face-saving thing. If he needs that to agree to the requirements you require to be in the NC letter, I think you could let him have that because you haven’t given up anything and gotten everything you wanted.

Alternately, you are getting a lot of people looking at this thread and you should be able to get more ideas. Also, if you explain the NC concept and letter to the counselor, he might have already dealt with the problem and have some suggestions.

Whatcha think?

Wow it's amazing how much better I feel today. MC appt is set for Wednesday with both of us. I finally have my priorities in order. Yeah it took long enough I know. Better late then never right?

Tonight even if I have to go to the garage to talk to H, I am going to ask H what steps he feels is necessary for him to want to come home. (His reply will probably be I don't know or no answer) but I'm hoping I'm wrong. I know H needs to come home in order for us to stand a better chance of our marriage suceeding he needs to be at home. BUT, yes there is a but here, The NC letter is a boundary issue for me. Until he can do that I won't support his coming home. The other boundaries of mine I am hoping we can work on during counseling.

LH, I started to mention the NC letter to the counselor on the phone when I was talking to him, but since it was really just me trying to decide if he was the right counselor I decided not to bring it up. A part of me was also scared that the counselor would say it wasn't necessary, and I'm not ready to give up that boundary. I'm just hoping that H doesn't lock horns with me in his alien brain and think my writing an apology letter is a boundary for him. I like your idea on the letter to the father if it's necessary, now on the other hand, how the heck would I write one to the OW if it's a boundary of my H's.

Wonder if he'd accept my letter below to the OW?

Dear OW,

I'm sorry that you chose to involve yourself in an affair with my H even after knowing he was married. I trusted you when you gave your word the first time about not seeing him again and you wasn't able to keep it. Your lack of keeping your word is what encouraged me to expose to your father that you were actively sleeping with my H who is in fact 26 years older then you and he is also older then your mother and has lied to you on numerous occassions.

I know your father raised you with better principals and beliefs then to be an active participant with a man who was committing adultry.

H and I have committed to working on our marriage. We know that working together we can make our marriage better then it ever was.

I am letting you know that all contact between you and I or you and my H must stop immediately. We both are asking that you not call, e-mail, page or make any attempt now or in the future to ever contact us again.

Sincerly
Mrs. H

How's that. I mean after all if I can have my boundaries H should also be allowed to have his.

The last two paragraphs are part of the NC letter and I'm not sure they need to be in this. I think if you say you "regret having to talk to her," or something like that, "about the adultery," you'll be okay. Regretting the necessity for something is nowhere near the same as, "I'm sorry I bothered you."

When you make your choice of counselors, talk to the counselor before the first session on how deeply you feel about no contact for life, and explain to him/her how vital you see the letter as a symbol of your husband's commitment to NC and to reconciliation. I expect the counselor will understand you approaching it from that direction and will find ways to work with you.

I'm not agreeing with the idea of writing letters to the OW and her father.

To me that waters down the importance and significance of the NC Letter. There is NO LETTER comparable to this..

Plus, this is really between YOU and YOUR HUSBAND and not them.

To me, the NC letter is symbolically written TO HER but is more for the TWO OF YOU.

I don't think you owe the OW an apology at all, BTW.

She should be thankful that you didn't do more to her. She was playing a part in DESTROYING your family.

She owes YOU AN APOLOGY!!!