Am I smelling a rat?

Does the D mean loss of money and partying with the OW?

I think it's back into DARKNESS...

Sounds like he's playing you, Grape...

What a weird, weird weekend I am having.

Last Saturday night, FCH and I went out. On Wednesday, he showed up at DD last softball game. On Thursday, he called to say that...a year ago...he had won a gift certificate to a resort hotel hot far from us that was going to expire soon. Would I go with him?

This was a good weekend to leave. DD was at a camp overnight. H made the reservation and we went.

On Friday evening, we drove up into the mountains and check into the la-de-da suite at the hotel. We had dinner. We spent hours talking. We jacuzzi-ed together. We slept in each other's arms with NO SF. We took a hike and got caught in a horrible storm. We laughed, we talked more, and drank a warm-me-up beer at a local brewery. Now, H is coming over for dinner.

Here's the bottomline: H is no longer cheating. He is being painfully honest about it. He broke up (his initiation) with slimeball OW in May. NC happened a couple of weeks ago. H is lonely, broken down and drained. He wants to see if he can develop "feelings".

I am open but suspicious. I feel very vulnerable. I feel like I am the port for this storm. Is a lighthouse the same as a port?

He says that he "loved" OW but could stand her kids. He felt he couldn't give her his all. He found him felt looking at pictures of our family, thinking about me, and driving through our little town.

It's not recovery. It's barely a toe dipped into the water.

I am cautious. The points I made on my PBL are being ticked off. NC has happened. H has done counseling. However, we both agree we need to go to a different counselor. Perhaps, we can make it to the MB workshop in August. H is becoming more open about the things he needs to be open about.

Oh MB mentors, I'm needing advice and support. I'm trying to work through my deep, deep hurt. It is quite apparent that H was doing both OW and I wrong.

I do not know where I stand. I'm sure I am the very worst impediment to recovery.

What about the NC Letter?

Yes, what about the NC letter - and where is he living right now?

The MB workshop sounds like a good idea.

You are exactly right to go very, very slowly. Let HIM prove to YOU that he is ready to come home - and if he doesn't do that, then you are no worse off then you were before. (A little shaken, perhaps, but in reality no worse off.)

Mulan

FCH has gone out to exercise. While he's gone, I decided to log onto MB to make some sense of the weekend.

For months and months, H has been somewhere and then suddenly he is WITH us. He plans to spend the whole holiday weekend with us. I'm attempting to be positive. He really is trying. It's hard after 2 years of being alone to suddenly have him around.

We have spent hours talking. Hours and hours and are still not done. For the most part, he has tried to be honest. I've caught a few things. There are a few Red Flags but a lot more wait and sees. The fog is almost gone.

H is really working at it. He's answering every question. Sometimes, the answers are painful to both of us. It's obvious that all of us: me, H and OW have been damaged by the affair.

H has shadowed our activities this weekend without complaint. He holds my hand a lot. We snuggle closely at night. There is no SF. Neither of us is ready for that. Our kids are delighted.

He hasn't been in contact with OW since May. (Stories vary.) Unfortunately, they work in the same area. He refuses to write a NC letter. This is an enormous red flag to me. I see this as our biggest threat/problem right now. Yeah, yeah I know. This has got to be dealt with.

Another big problem is that H seems to feel that it's all about him. HE has to see if he can find his "feelings" for our marriage to work. Part of the residual fog is that he only sees his pain. I guess he assumes that I've been frozen in carbonite (ala Hans Solo) and nothing has changed in me. That is oh so not true.

For the meantime, I'm going to let this be about him. I laid awake for a long time last night thinking about this. I believe, he is going through withdrawal. He often seems depressed. He feels empty and hurt. He is drained. I've decided to be patient for a while. I will listen.

I plan to encourage H to make an appointment with Steve Harley. I think that's our best chance right now.

***He hasn't been in contact with OW since May. (Stories vary.) Unfortunately, they work in the same area.***

And do you see how the last sentence immediately cancels out the first one?

He has to stop working with her. Why does he still work with her?

***He refuses to write a NC letter.***

What is his excuse for not writing one?

Are you sure OW didn't throw him out and he just ran "home" because it was convenient?

Grape, he does not sound committed to this at all - not if he still works at the same place at OW and refuses to write her a NC letter.
Mulan

First of all, Grape, I agree wholeheartedly with Mulan. There definitely is continued contact. THERE IS NO RECOVERY WITHOUT NC AND THE NC LETTER!!!



This seems too quick.



Hmmm..not even to first or second base...This is suspicious to me..your H snuggling with you without a physical response on his part???? What do you mean NOT READY for SF? Did he say this to you? Why are you NOT READY? How does one BECOME READY? I could understand BEING READY and not acting on it...



This is more than a threat. It cancels out all of the above. This needs to be done TODAY..before SNUGGLING IN THE BED..or else Grape, you could be ENABLING the AFFAIR..you can be setting yourself up for tremendous hurt...BEEN THERE DONE THAT..You can be turning into the OW. He may have moved onto the fence. He may be becoming a cake-eater. You need to have EVIDENCE that he is completely finished with the OW. You need that EVIDENCE TODAY...before you PLAY and have FOURTH OF JULY. Really, Grape. This is serious stuff.




This is dangerous, Grape...without the NC and the letter..you can be medicating him to feel good enough to GO BACK TO HER....

HE CANNOT BE IN WITHDRAWAL IF HE SEES HER AT ALL..even just laying his eyes on her starts the entire process all over again....

Hugs to you Grape..just been there through the enabling, cake-eating and false recoveries...

My H had to get serious about the NC... willing to take EXTREME PRECAUTIONS before he was over her...

He did all of that talking to me too and then turned around and went right back to her after a month. In fact, all the talking, without extraordinary precautions, caused him to MISS HER...YUCK...

This NC thing is part of the residual fog. Like so many FCS, he thinks that if he ended it, it doesn't matter if she works near him. The company just acquired another company and is overflowing with workers. There aren't a lot of open positions. He says he was afraid OW would file a sexual harrassment suit. I said that was blackmail and he was using that threat as an excuse to continue being with her.

Needless to say, I am very, very concerned about this.

I think he needs to talk to someone "neutral" like SH. FCH doesn't understand how serious this is.

FCH ended it with OW because he couldn't stand his fence sitting either. He also really disliked her kids and her parenting techniques. He is also coming out of the fog enough now to see some of the lies she told.

Part of my ambivalence is that I don't want him to come back to the marriage because I'm a good mom.

I'm also worried that if this doesn't work out, my kids will even be hurt more. I don't really think he is committed. I think we are a port in his storm and it concerns me.

We have a lot of talk about. I'm willing to invest some time on this.

Call this for what it is, Grape..It's BULL CRAP. He wants to continue to SEE her. He is ADDICTED to her! Tell him that you will not accept him back without the letter. If he wants to be with you, he will do it without reservation.



This is why I was concerned about the lack of SF. You are a sexual woman..not just a mom...he needs to regard you that way.



Don't worry so much about your kids. I had to learn that. Worry about yourself. If you are happy, they will be happy.

DO YOU LOVE THIS MAN..then FIGHT for him. Fighting includes insisting on the NC LETTER and NC prior to reconciling. Say this assertively without LBing and don't backdown from this. Counseling from Steve would be helpful but he needs to hear this from you.

Well

you can play it like Cher

slap him and scream

snap out of it

or you can play it cool

I vote cool

I see things as half full & not half empty in your situation

I don't see this as grimly as other do ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

STAY ALERT

Pep

I am basing my opinion on what I perceive Grapes level of expectations to be .... which I think are realistic right now.

NC letter is not going to hurt anyone ... that is bull ... be sure to check your inner list of things you know you cannot live with & compare to what is being served by WH

And BTW, I don't see it dimly...

I also see things as Half Full...

I also see him as trying...

I just have this thing about the NC Letter...

And, at least, for my FWH..one of my biggest mistakes was giving into him TOO MUCH..TOO SOON...I have this thing for him..anyways...

I believe that you H is on his way and will get there BUT he needs more of a NUDGE..maybe even a SLAP...A GOOD SHAKING?...well you know what I mean...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Although I am extremely concerned about the NC letter, I am trying to view this in a positive light. This whole reconciliation thing came out of the blue. I have felt he had been struggling. He was stupified when I served him with divorce papers. He had said at the counselors that he didn't want to be married to anyone. I think he is a battered, broken man.

I worry about the SF stuff too. I probably could initiate SF but don't want to. I think everything is too fragile now for that. The snuggling has been nice. It's helped fill a gaping void. It's a good place to start.

I have told him that I am extremely vulnerable. I have held fast and true to my marriage vows. In the last few weeks, I have come microns away from going through with a divorce. If a man showed me attention and began to treat me like...well, a woman, I would be vulernable. Not that I do not have the strength to say "NO" but I am not just a mom.

I'm making the list and checking it twice. I'm waiting through the weekend. I am asking countless questions.

Well, it's been an interesting week. FCH had the extended 4th of July weekend off. Most of it, he spent with me.

I'm taking it slowly but surely. We've talked for hours. By nature and profession, I'm an analyst. I'm very good at acquiring, retaining and processing data. H talks and I examine and sift through the information. I've caught a few descrepances and shadings but not a lot. There's been a progression to how he's unfolded. It's really weird looking inside a cheating spouses mind.

First of all, life has not been so rosy for him. He's lonely and stressed, too. He has a lot of guilt about the decisions he's made and the things he's done. He agonizes about not breaking the A off sooner. He is a battered, hurt man.

One of the biggest problems is that it's all about him right now. It's all about him trying to squelch his "feelings" for slimeball OW. It's about him trying to find "feelings" for me. He talks about his work, his big trip last February, how he dislikes OW's kids, how he wants a relationship with HIS kids. I decided I'm willing to LET it be about him for a bit. I'm going to let him talk and sort through the stories. Like anybody else, I'd sure like him to ask ME a few questions.

The other night, H actually brought up the D word. He tossed it to the wind that maybe he needed to just get away from EVERYBODY. He's been alone a lot. I can see that it's stressful for him to fold himself into our family. There are chores that need to be done, meals cooked, children disciplined. He's accustomed to picking up and leaving when the going gets rough. That's something he needs to work through.

There appears to be NC between H and OW. They work together and I am still leary. He says that for now, they have to be on the same project. I just calmly state that there's a good reason for the saying "Don't sh**** (or f***) where you eat."

I push gently for a NC letter. He's been coming around more and more to that. If nothing else, he needs the closure and I need the security of it. I've let him talk about her. I requested that he refer to her as "that woman" and he does. I've had a lot of insight into her. How this started and what she is. Like any other CS, H led her along. She told him a lot of untruths, too. I always wonder how someone who said she went through a terrible divorce, had a cheating husband and has damaged children could do this to another woman and another family. It's quite clear that she comes from a family of cheaters. Everyone in her family has had affairs and has been divorced multiple times. What a legacy to pass on!

While we talked on the 4th, H once again sent up his plaintive plea about how to kill his feelings for slimeball OW. Geeze, he broke it off in May (or was it June?). Why can't he squelch them? (No clue that seeing her at work only sets back the process...) Why can't he just end with her and attempt to start back up with me? Why can't he sleep at night? Why is he so depressed?

My reply was that he's in withdrawal and needs time. He needs counseling. He needs to see a doctor. He needs to make male friends and have hobbies besides work. But, only he can heal himself.

To H's credit, yesterday he made and went to an appointment with a doctor. (H hates doctors.) He was given a bunch of prescriptions for pills for depression, sleeping and high blood pressure. H is going to make an appointment with his counselor. I like the guy but I think (and say) that I feel he's more of a divorce counselor than a marriage counselor. H refuses to talk to Steve Harley.

Our children are delighted their dad is here. Although, he isn't doing much in the way of one-on-one with them. They aren't real happy with the way he "bolts" back to his apartment at night.

I am calm but sceptical. I keep my hot Irish temper under control. I'm giving it the gift of time. I'm not commiting myself. I don't like the feeling that I'm on probation. That H is taking life with me and our family on a test run. I feel vulnerable.

Then again, the times we cuddled together at night felt really nice...at least to me. Oddly enough, when he kissed me good night the other day, I got the tingles. It wasn't a deep romantic kiss; he's never been into those. I had to kiss him again to see if the tingles were still there and they were.

So, that's the Grape update. Not recovery. More of an exploration. Any takes on it? (And yes I know, push, push, push for that NC letter...)

Grape - you sound calm and confident - and I'm glad for you - but I just gotta ask you one question:


Just what IS your definition of "NC"???
Mulan

Sorry Grape.

Mulan is correct.

There's no way that he will get over her if he has any contact whatsoever. So working on a project together?

I don't understand how you could cope with/handle that?

I couldn't.

My definition of NC would never, ever, ever see that slimeball woman again. I would love the classic MB NC letter. I'm extremely leary because there hasn't been a NC letter.

What I'm taking, for a limited time only, is a modified version of NC. That version being that H isn't sleeping with her, parenting her kids or fixing stuff at her house. Crumbs and I freely admit it.

1) This kind of NC is what FCH is offering up at this time. It's not enough but it's a start. He thinks he can do it. I think it's stupid. I've voiced the opinion.

2) H works in a turbulent industry full of uncertainity, layoffs and stress. The options for other jobs are scarce right now. Quitting the job is not an option. Darn house payments and tuition insist on being paid.

3) A great deal of H self is tied up in his job. Not a good thing to push.

4) He's come to a position where he could think about relocating.

5) OW is extremely peeved at H. Shoots him stinkeyes at work. He thinks that good. I say that anger to 'way too close to love.

6) I have insiduously sown seeds of doubt about OW. Cheerfully pointing out inconsistences. Helping him question the nature of friendship. I say that I have friends I enjoy talking to and like their company but I don't think it's necessary to destroy my family for them.

7) He says he dislikes her kids so much he couldn't go back. Her youngest is 11.

Bottomline: H is the only one who can make NC stick. I can ask for the letter but HE has to do it. I've already say I feel very uncomfortable with work situation. He is slow coming out of the fog. It takes him a while to process things. We've been at this for less than a week.

I'm being standoff-ish. He has to work this through. If there's contact, I'm gone.

Maybe it's just a play on words, Grape.

But I guess we want to hear you say that THERE IS CONTACT. Say it out loud to yourself and to him or else you may buy what he is saying to you.

Bottom line is that he is HAVING CONTACT WITH HER NOW. There is no modified version of NO CONTACT. Either he is having contact OR he is not...no middle ground on this works at all.



Seriously, Grape. This HAS to be done in order to recover your marriage.



Lots of this is A LIE and doesn't make sense!!!

It's a vicious cycle. He will not want to write the NC letter as long as he can have contact with her. HE WANTS TO MAINTAIN CONTACT WITH HER, GRAPE. It's like the alcoholic who says that I can drink just one beer..then it's two beers..then it's a full 6 pack...

I'm concerned about you being an enabler and buying that either one of you are in control of this.



He will not come out of the fog as long as there is contact with her. Your H is no different than any other WS.



So now what?.... because there is contact.

This has to be non-negotiable, Grape, or else he is definitely now a cake-eater...wanting to have the both of you..if even just glimpses of her..but there will probably be more than that...

I learned this from my experience with my H. Even down to the point when he was absolutely sure that he wanted to be with me and wanted to reconcile with me...after months of Recovery...he was reluctant in the end to sell his car. That was the last link for him, I think. The only way that she could clearly identify him around town (special kind of car he had). I think he had some fantasy that maybe she could still find him if she had to.

Then, early on in Recovery, he was reluctant to change his cell phone number even though he wouldn't answer her calls. He wanted to hear her voice.

Finally, he said, straight up to me, "This is too much of an addiction..I don't want her but can't fight the urge to speak with her if I hear her voice"...

We are even thinking about moving out of town....H's idea...

Dr. Harley says that: "You must accept that your husband will be vulnerable to this other person for the rest of his life"....

This is what one has to accept to do RECOVERY..TRUE RECOVERY..

It is your task to HELP HIM WITH HIS ADDICTION..NOT TO ENABLE THE ADDICTION..which is what he would prefer for you to do..let him to continue to have just that one drink...eventually the infidels will be back going strong..BEEN THERE DONE THAT..too many times...

There's no NC letter because he still sees her on what sounds like a daily basis. And it sounds like your definition of NC is really "no sex" - but Grape, you said he leaves your home and stays elsewhere at night.

C'mon now - do you really think he's not still having sex with her? Why do you believe this? Because that's what he's telling you?


And if you believe he's not sleeping with her - again, c'mon. If he wasn't, he'd be back to you in a heartbeat and that NC letter would have been mailed long ago.

You're right. He's giving you nothing but crumbs. And why should he stop? You're accepting them and letting him string you along with crumbs, vague promises and NO actions except to do what - come over and let you cook for him?


Voicing an opinion is not enough. Do you think he cares what your opinion is when he's got BOTH of you? And make no mistake - he does.


Grape lives in a turbulent marriage full of uncertainity, layoffs and stress. So what? CS does not care.



But quitting the marriage is? For both of you?


What are you afraid of??? Ferpete's sake, woman, HIS GIRLFRIEND WORKS THERE AND THAT'S WHY HE'S SO TIED UP IN HIS JOB!!! But you don't want to "push" that?


Really. How very, very generous of him. He lets his work life destroy his marriage and family, but eventually soon he might decide to ponder "thinking about" relocating.


And how do you know this? Because he told you?


And all this has done is let him enjoy the idea of having two women fight over him.


Repeat after me: "My CS had to come home because he couldn't stand his girlfriend's kids".


Grape - you've been at this for a lot longer than a week. I am sorry to be so very harsh, but all I see is a man stringing you along with crumbs and setting you up for a very, very big fall. Maybe others will see this differently - but frankly, I think you're kidding yourself.

He's still seeing his girlfriend. There was a little trouble in Paradise so he wants to make sure you're still dangling in case it doesn't work out with her.

I don't see where he has done ANYTHING for you except drop by your house, let you cook for him and tell you what he thinks you want to hear.
Mulan

Help me with my course. How do I stay a lighthouse, how do I stay still and get the things I need? Is there no middle ground?

I'm very upset and depressed after reading Mulan and Mimi's posts. It's brought up everything I've surpressed.

When we went to pick up DS's car from the shop, I just didn't say anything. Occasionally, I'd make an observation. H talked about his work, his blood pressure, his medicine.

When I got out of the car, I said, "Tonight, why don't you think of somethings to ask me." Love buster or honesty?

He's coming back for dinner tonight. It's going to be leftovers. Should I say to him what I want to say to him?

-I need you to have no contact with OW. You have to figure something out about work and soon. You and I both need a NC letter.

-I need more accountability about where you are.

-I need for it to be about more than YOU.


Should I discuss my fears with him? My feelings that this is all too sudden. That he's using this time to justify whatever he does: "Well, I tried for a whole week and I couldn't develop feelings."

I know I'm setting myself up for a big hurt.


Help!