OK Pijoitos.....time to call you out personally for some answers. I haven't done so in the past because:

a.) you had me on ignore because you did not like my advice to you and others
b.) you changed names (you have posted under 3 names here already), so I never know who was who. I am a little slower than your average poster here.

So, that leads me to my questions that have me curious.

I think you are still obviously struggling in your marriage recovery efforts...a fact you have conceded. What I am curious to know is how you can deliberately turn your back on the possibility that your WW may still have contact. Your marriage has not improved, your WW is still distant, she doesn't seem to give a rats A$$ about you....SO....is it that you secretly know in your heart of hearts that she is having contact and don't want to know...or don't you care and have just resigned yourself to accepting this life and are gonna stay married for the sake of your precious daughters (whom I can see from your postings here that you adore).

You have been a controversial guy here and have put yourself "out" there for some criticism here as of late...and I give you some props for that...but I would like to know what you would do if you found out that your WW was still a "wayward". I don't want you to hide behind the witty jokes, and other stuff. I would like a real answer to this. IF you get undeniable proof that she is a Wayward, what would you do?

Enquiring minds want to know.

Lem

lemonman,

I apologize if there was any confusion. I thought I was quite clear that I would terminate my marriage if I find my WW is continuing contact or beginning a new affair.

Once I found out about the cellphone, my WW was very careful to limit her adulterous activities to outside the house. I still monitor what I can but I do not have her followed. My belief is that adulterers are essentially stupid (by default) and that, if she is still involved, she will eventually be found out. Adulterers are stupid in their arrogance thinking that they are smarter than the BS and cannot possibly get caught. That is their fatal flaw.

I have "opened my mind" just a bit based on several posts that Myrta and Stanley made. I am giving my WW some benefit of the doubt but I still don't trust her farther than I can throw her which is only about 4 or 5 feet if I have her raised over my head. I will say that Myrta pulled me back from the brink of Plan C (C being somewhere between B and D).

I had been trying to keep my situation up-to-date and my feelings public record open to all scrutiny which, if you review my thread, you will notice I was getting a lot of. IMO I was getting hammered much more than the average bear.

Now, I know a little bit about your story but not a lot. I am fully aware each and every day that I run a serious risk of following in your footsteps. That is a risk that, up til the moment, I have been and still am willing to take. If I do end up betrayed again, I will hope I will feel good in that at least I will have given my DDs' a chance. That is in no way intended as a criticism of you because I think you gave your WW every chance too. I also don't know if you have any DDs. I am just trying to answer your question(s?).

Even if we recover our marriage, I will have to live with the A the rest of my life. It still hurts. Every day it hurts. (The HPV is sometimes painful too.) Last night we took the DDs to the mall amusement park so DD1 could go ice skating (DD2 doesn't meet the height requirement). WW, DD2 and I were sitting watching DD1. I don't know what DD2 and WW had been saying to each other because I had been with DD1 putting her skates on. Shortly after I sat down, DD2 told me I couldn't be "mean to Mommy any more". What she is referring to is the arguments that WW and I have had over NC violations in the past. We have done our best to "hide" that but you can't hide anything from kids. Anyway, I told DD2 that I would not be mean to Mommy any more. She said that was right because I love her. What I desperately wanted to say was that I hoped Mommy would stop being mean to me. I bit my tongue.

Some times I feel hopeful and that I still love my WW. Other times I feel like I am in a Mexican standoff - with a real Mexican no less. If I catch her in any type of affair, I will send her away FOR the DDs oddly enough. What I have told WW is that we may be able to recover from the affair or not. The jury is still out. But if she continues this kind of behavior, I cannot let her be a role-model to my DDs. I would never want them to pattern themselves after an adulterous woman. She even agrees with that.

BTW, threadjack. Can I just say that I like the new kinder gentler you? Your message comes through much more clearly now. Good for you. Threadjack over.

Now lemonman. You are correct. I feel stuck and yet Myrta says I am not. My feeling is to wait a little longer and see how it goes. My window of opportunity for divorce is once a year. There is nothing practical I can do this very moment even if I wanted to. I am listening to what Myrta has said because it is exactly one of the scenarios I had played out in my mind before. Maybe it is also wishful thinking. Only time will answer that one. The reality is the OM is gone forever. Unless WW hops on a plane and goes to him, she has zero chance of ever seeing him again. She knows that and believes it. She knows OM is out of her life forever unless she brings him back in.

I don't want to worry all day long about whether she is having an affair or not. That is no life that I want. If I can't regain trust in WW, I will divorce her - even if she is June Cleaver. I won't live with that in my life and in my heart. My life is too short for that. If I have to go through every day wondering if my wife is off shagging the pool boy, what kind of marriage is that? That is one fundamental problem of the A - blind trust is gone forever. I know I will never be able to trust WW implicitly again. There are many times when i think that reason alone is enough to warrant Plan C. My WW has told me on several occasions that i should check up on her. I have told her each time that is not what marriage is about. I shouldn't have to check up on her. I admit I have put the question of trust on the furthest most burner because I think it is the most difficult to resolve and will take a great deal of time. I simply accept the fact that she is an accomplished cheat and a gifted liar. I don't worry about whether she is telling the truth or not. The proof of the pudding is in the eating.

So, in summary, I have no way of being 100% certain that WW is not still in contact. I am very vigilant and looking for everything that doesn't make sense. If I do find she is in contact or doing anything except being a faithful wife, I will buy her a plane ticket out and get the divorce later. She is well aware of that. Last night we were rearranging the medicine shelf and I found 25 SR tucked away in the back. She saw me find it. We never said a word about it but 25 SR is exactly the cost of a phone card. I think that was her first-aid kit. Very appropriate that it was with the medicines as it is her drug of choice. Now I think that money was put there a while ago. She has money now for a few weeks and I don't count it any more. So what do I do about the 25 SR? Nothing comes to mind.

What would you suggest I do? Do I end my marriage while there yet may be hope of recovery? Do I continue to swallow my manhood and suffer the adulterous WW in the hope that a marriage may be saved? Or do I follow my every instinct and kick her out now. I don't want to be a doormat but Plan A makes me at least a throw rug. Where do you draw this line? I am not arguing - I am sincerely asking. Plan A does not require that NC be maintained (I don't think). Plan A does not require much of the WW at all. Plan A is a serious lesson in self-denial. How do you be almost a doormat but not quite? How can you be humiliated and maintain your self-respect? This is the part I have never yet been able to grasp. I will say that my WW supposedly has now had four months of NC. Any violation now would be the last nail in the coffin.

I was told to change my name from traicionado by cc46 because she told me that I was mentally keeping myself stuck by referring to myself as "betrayed". She and ToddAC recommended pendejo which I adopted because (and you will agree) I thought it was very fitting. Unfortunately someone was offended by that so I tried another one for the space of about an hour and then went to piojitos because they are insignificant - like me. Now those name changes lasted for a total of about 4 hours so, if you were asleep (and not many of you are in my time zone) you would have missed them. I do sometimes accidentally post as gemela because I forget that she is logged on to MB. I have stopped keeping her logged on because she has stopped using MB.

A very long time ago I used eyeorr for a few days on adrianc's thread. I did that because I was really depressed and at very low self-esteem. Not much lower than I am now but low enough to justify the use.

So as long as you are in the questioning mode, is there anything else I can answer for your? I only came to MB to seek help and, in my way, try to offer some as well. I thought your "doormat" post was very harsh and hit me at a very bad time. I came very close to divorce over that post. Go figure. You are in good company. Bigger also put me into a divorce talk with WW over something he said which he meant as sarcastic but I took as literal.

In fairness to you, I believe that you want to keep others (like me) from being hurt the way you were. That is admirable and I have always respected you for that. What I have not liked is your lead-pipe approach. Speaking from personal experience as one who was in a very emotionally unstable place at the time, I would much rather get hit with a 2x4 than a lead pipe because wood does at least have some elasticity.

Now do you maintain Plan A if NC is broken? I have seen many different answers to that question. I have not seen a definite yes or no. So my fundamental issue with you is that your doormat concept and Plan A are seemingly juxtaposed. I can't see the middle ground there. That is also not a criticism BTW, it is just me trying to tell me that you (and others) confuse me. I wish I knew the answer to that. If you are willing to explain it, I would definitely listen.

The intangible that I assign to my WW is that I still believe, for the moment, that she is good for the DDs. If my marriage stays in stagnation for long, I will seek divorce. How long is long? In two more months, WW will have had 6 months of NC (assuming she really is doing it).

Please post any more questions you wish and I will answer.

PS: I will answer later because now I am off to the dentist.

PPS: another threadjack. I will go on record as saying it bothers me that I have to pay US taxes. I have not lived in the USA in many years. I have no home there. Taxes are a payment to the government for services. I receive no services and yet I pay taxes. Now, before you jump on me, consider this. The USA began as a country because a bunch of expatriates living overseas got tired of paying taxes to King George. Now the USA makes me do the very thing they refused. Maybe I should start a war. I would probably lose though. They have some really big guns. Oh and before you go around saying that getting an $80,000 exclusion is an unfair advantage. Please remember that the IRS taxes benefits in kind. For example, about 10 years ago I lived in Mexico and my salary was about $70,000. My taxable income on my W2 was $256,000. I don't know where all that money went but I never saw a dime of it. But I did get taxed for it. What I actually saw was about $70,000 less FICA less medical insurance less medicare less estimated taxes. And what benefit did I receive in return from the US Govt? Well, okay - they did add some pages to my passport for free. Okay my tax rant is over. Maybe I should go live in Idiotville. Only problem is that there is a rumor that Idiotville sponsors terrorism and some believe that Osama Bin Laden may actually be hiding there. I can't abide that - if true. Threadjack over.

Oops lemonman. I spoke too soon. Looks like you had a busier morning than I gave you credit for. What happened to the kinder, gentler you? You're doing it again! BTW I can't help but think that post about not following your advice is directly intended for me. I checked the time stamp and you did post it before I posted my reply on this thread. Were you just being proactive? Forgive my paranoia but I am getting pretty beat up lately. Looks like you are going to have a busy day with FH. Good luck. I read his post and, if you take the religious reference out of it, he did ask you one extremely valid question. I say that because I think I have more or less asked you that same question here but in different terminology.

Piojito:

I will need some time to review this post and get back to you with answers to your questions. I just wanted to thank you for responding to my post, and being very open about things and answering in full.

For the record, the post about "not follwing advice" was not intended at anyone imparticular (and certainly NOT YOU)..so you can chill with that one. It was more of my own rant and not about anyone.

Regarding Taxes....YOU will never ever hear me side with the "taxman". I am one of the unfortunate (or fortunate..depending on how you look at it)..who paid nearly 45% of my salary last year to taxes in some form.

I hate taxes...hate em.....hate emmm.....hate emmm

More later...

Lem

Oh me too, and I'm not even in your tax bracket...yet <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

"Yet" ????...I like that thinking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

lemonman,

In my mind there is something very fundamental about SAA and Plan A that is very carefully not explained - the grey area I mentioned. For those of us who don't like Kool Aid, it is hard to swallow. Give my answer to you some thought because maybe this would help a lot of us BS's. I don't know.


Okay rant coming now:

A quick update on my sitch BTW. I mentioned a while back that SIL was trying to get WW to leave with the kids to Mexico right after school was out. I confronted WW with that way back when and she said it was not in her plans. As I recall, that was the incident that got SIL and I on non-speaking terms after I finally confronted her about her 10-year affair and lack of qualifications to give marital advice. Well, anyway, that whole thing died - until last night. WW has been acting "strange" the past few days. Very distant. I keep trying to bring it up but she says nothing is wrong. Well last night she told me she is just looking forward to vacation and needing to get out of here. I remind her that vacation is still 10 weeks away. The she says she is missing her family and disappointed that she will not be spending 5 or 6 weeks with them like she has done in the past. I tell her that we just spent $13,000 on air tickets and plans that she had been right in the middle of and I was not going to throw that money away just so she could go run off to Mexico with the kids. I told her I will sacrifice her ticket and she can go alone and we will see her in Cancun. Or she can go with us and just stay in Mexico and not come back. I told her vacation will not solve her problems. Once vacation is over, we will be right back here.

She told me she is just having some bad days. I told her I am having some bad days too. Every one of them in fact is bad because I have to live with a woman who does not love me, does not want our marriage and is a terrible role model for our kids. If she is unhappy, she has a solution. She can fly off and live happily ever after with her swimming instructor and I won't miss her. Even if our marriage continues, I will always know that she is a liar and I will always have to live with this affair. I will always have to live with the HPV which is in perpetual outbreak and will just not go away. I could go on but that is the gist of it. I was not angry. I was not yelling. I was just talking calmly but didn't pull any punches either.

Well DD2 came in and asked if Mommy was going to go give them carinitos (sorry but this keyboard won't let me do Spanish characters). WW did go tuck them in and came back and got in bed. She asked if I would hold her and I did. She was very clingy. She practically crawled inside my shirt. When she rolled over to go to sleep, she almost pulled my arm off. My left arm was in tension for about half an hour until I couldn't take the pain any more.

The whole time we had our talk, I was thinking about a post I saw yesterday about the neck moving the head. I felt like this was WW's way of trying to manipulate me. I feel like she has been wanting to go to Mexico for the summer all along. She has just been waiting for the right moment and planning to get me to go along. I am not responding to her methods like I did in the past and it backfired on her. Maybe.

The only thing I need to put in place before WW can leave on her own is a house maid. Last night I told her to get a full time house maid. I don't think she will do it. It doesn't matter. This isn't a game. We are not playing poker here. I will still try to stay in the marriage but only to a point.

I did mention the 25 SR I found and told her how much it bothered me. She did admit it was an emergency stash for a phone card but had forgotten it was there. I do believe she forgot about it. Otherwise she would have spent it.

Oh, one thing I did tell her was that I was amazed that she would want so badly out of a marriage where she had so much more than the majority of women. I told her I was not talking about shoes or clothes or jewelry. I was talking about a safe home with a family that adored her, friends that admired her, opportunities for travel and experience new things. And yet that was not enough for her. Most woman would dream about what she has and yet it is not enough for her. I told her I think she needs to leave and I hope she leaves because that is the only way she will ever be happy. Staying with me will always be a sacrifice for her. I told her I would eventually find a wife who did appreciate me and would be faithful to me and be thankful for her marriage to me.

I told her I was disappointed to learn she was such a weak person. She was weak to have the affair and now she was weak because she was too much of a coward to follow through and leave the marriage. She denies she is still in contact with OM. Well, not really. She denies that she has called him. I didn't ask about all forms of communication. I forgot my F Lee Bailey check list (did you call him, did he call you, did you email him, did he email you, etc.)

Okay so maybe I deviated from MB principles a tad. cc46 says I suck at it anyway. I will say (and wanted to say yesterday in my post) that I am glad that Plan A has gotten me this far. If my marriage had ended 4 or 5 months ago, I would have been a wreck. I don't know if I have reached a partial acceptance of events or not. But if WW does pack up and leave, I won't have any regrets.

Sorry lemonman, don't mean to distract you. Focus on my first post. That is the important part - I think. I just needed to rant.

Well I read your story. I swear I looked for it once but couldn't find it. Of course, I have gotten much better at using the search since then. Thanks to Trix for finding it.

So now I know why I have such a problem with you - you're just like me. We're BOTH pendejos. Imagine that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I know this is water under the bridge but, if I had been in your shoes, I would be thankful the OM lived. I would not want my WW back knowing that OM would always live in her heart and that each day of our marriage she would mourn him. I also read your opinion of WS's from a year and a half ago. I hope you haven't softened those views any. I think you were spot on.

t/j taxes are what drove me to be a Libertarian.


Let me tell you how it will be
There's one for you, nineteen for me
'cause i'm the taxman, yeah, i'm the taxman

Should five per cent appear too small
Be thankful i don't take it all
'cause i'm the taxman, yeah i'm the taxman

It's been a year. Is that enough time to get back to me?