My WW still has not commited to either NC or to trying to rbuild our relationship. She tells me 'I don't know' a lot and still is jealously guarding her privacy.

I know contact continues, and as I said, she hasn't commited to end it.

I'm only 5 weeks into Plan A - how do I tell her that nothing short of NC is acceptable? How do I explain that her hiding things from me hurts me and is ruining what little trust I still have in her?

I'm losing the love that I still have for her, and I really don't want to do that. I believe that when it gets to that point, it's really over.

Any advice from those that have been here before?

well, 1st things 1st (in my book at least)....Have you exposed this affair to any and ALL people who might have a helpful influence to end it?

Tell us more...children, finances? length of marriage?

You can tell your WW the honest truth of your feelings, but just do it an a respectful way. No yelling, or angry outbursts....."Kill her with kindness" when you tell her how you feel.

Remember...."PLan A" is not about being a doormat, or about being "nice" or helping her to hide her affair...are you doing everything you can do to end her affair by exposing it?

Lem

Last night I did tell her exactly how I feel - she tells me I am 'pushing' her again... We negotiated an agreement. She will make her decision by Friday night, and I will avoid any 'Pushing', 'Nagging', etc until then.

I have been pushing for our relationship, and she just shuts down when I do, so I believe this is a fair arrangement. She did agree to NC during this period, and at least she'll be off the fence by then <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

This is going to be a *very* long week...

Prophet -

Follow Lem's advice and do first things first.

You asked for perspective from someone in a similar sitch. Mine was very similar. I think if you are setting your boundary of NC and recommitting to the M at the same time, you probably won't like the result.

End the A first, then worry about working on the M.

FWIW, it took about 5 mos. for real NC and then another 2 mos. for FWW to consider working on the M. Early on, my FWW seemed to view ending contact and agreeing to work on the M as a de facto agreement with me that we would never get a D. I believe she thought this was all one decision and she was not willing to make that decision. She said I don't know a lot. I finally said to her, this is not one decision. Its 3 different ones and you don't have to decide all 3 today. Your first is whether you will end contact and let me know when/if you are going to do that, cause decision 2 and 3 are moot until the first one is made.

Your WW probably says I don't know all the time because its the truth. She does not see how your M can possibly survive. Its impossible in her mind. So, why give up this thing that makes her feel good for something she can't see going anywhere.

Focus on ending the A, establish NC, let her clear her head. Take the drama out of things. Be patient, you've got time.

But, its your boundary, so its up to you.

I agree - it's the contact that's killing me inside. By agreeing to NC, she is making a de-facto decision to try to work on the M. I will try to clarify my point with her, that it is NC that I am really looking for. I have exposed to all who could have an impact (and believe me - that really upset her).

We have agreed to have a sit down and discuss this on Friday, until then, I have to avoid LB's and just wait patiently, not my strong suit.

I'm a guy - so my instinct is to fix things now, It's been real tough fighting that instinct.

Thanks for the input, it helps to put things in perspective.

Prohpet - I also like to fix things right away. I can tell you from experience that does not work in this situation.

I read through your other posts. Your sitch has lots of similar themes.

My FWW did not open up immediately. Continued contact, etc. My FWW moved out of the house over a year ago. This was originally for work, then not for work, now again for work. (Long story on that). She comes home most weekends now and she is supposed to be moving home for good in July.

Some of the things you've mentioned are what my FWW has told me. She was unhappy for a long time, she tried to tell me, she doesn't know what she wants to do. Some is probably a rewrite, some is probably true.

We also do not have kids, so its just us.

First and foremost, this is not manipulation. You aren't trying to make your WW do anything. It doesn't work and people see right through it. You are working on yourself. You said in one of your posts that this was a wakeup call. It is. Like all of us, you found out you aren't very well trained in R's. You have decided you want to be better. Take comfort in knowing that the skills you are developing will help you regardless of what happens to your M. If your only doing it to save your M, this M, then it is manipulation. There's a difference between internalizing the changes and just acting differently.

Mr. Wondering gives good advice. He helped me a lot. (So did many others). He sent me some information about different types of A's. I read through that, and one of the main things it focused on was the question, do you want to save your M, and why. It pointed out that this was not something to do out of fear of being alone, or some other similar theme.

It basically got to the point of what do you want to do. Think about that question some. Think of it with no fear and no constraints.

A second thing it pointed out was to not take the A personally. I know this sounds like a foreign concept, but I honestly believe most FWS/WS do not have A's to hurt there S. They do it because they are unhappy. Drop your pain and let go of the how could you do this to me mindset for a while. (No, I'm not saying just get over it, but deprioritize addressing that for now - you will come back to it.)

Third, read about the three states of intimacy. You are probably in the state of conflict and your WW is in the state of withdrawal. Read the renter/buyer posts. Read about the giver and taker. Truly understand these concepts and clearly get a picture of where you really are.

Some of your questions about opening lines of communication flow from these key elements.

So in short, where do you both want to go, where are you both now, let's drop the drama and see if we can get there. Now, for a while you may have to guess how your FWW would answer these questions. But that's okay. What's your hurry? I know its hard, but you can still work, enjoy things, work on your self, etc. through all of this. Even if you work on your M for two years and it doesn't happen, you haven't lost anything and its not a waste of time because your using that time to better yourself.

Okay, so your calm and patient, you know where you are and where you want to be. What's your plan? You don't have to have the whole plan worked out, but what is priority #1.

For me, step 1 - start being honest, step 2 - end contact, step 3 - move home, step 4 - haven't gotten their yet.

Most say ending contact is step 1, which I agree with. For me, a tie was being honest. We are in MC with SH and I remember saying to SH, "I told my FWW, you can keep contact with OP, as long as you tell me the complete truth about it." He said your kidding right. I said "Heck no, with the accurate information I could make my choices. Being lied to robs you of your freedom of choice" Anyway, it sounds like you want to open lines of communication so you can make the right choice.

Each of these big steps has a little plan within them. So for me, I had to try and get my FWW talking to me again and that was all I worked on. I did not worry about step 2 or 3.

So my tips for getting my FWW to talk again. I decided that 90% of our time talking would be for fun. Cliche talk, banter. Only 10% would be "tough" discussions and I would only bring up "to do" items when I absolutely had to. (She hated the way I always talked about the "to do" list)

First, I told my FWW, I do not hate you, I do not think you are a bad person, and wanted her to know that she could tell me anything. Honesty was very important and told her that if she did not feel comfortable telling me the truth on something, then just refuse to answer the question or change the subject.

Second, I spent about a month and half with the single purpose of rediscovering my FWW. What is your favorite color? What's your worst childhood memory? What's your best childhood memory? What are your top 5 favorite movies, etc. Get to know your W again. Even if you think you know the answer, ask again. If she asked me the same question, I answered.

Next, I spent about a month asking my FWW her opinion on current events.

Then I spent about a month discussing with my wife, how I thought she was feeling, how I thought the A started, how I understood what she was thinking, etc. I let her correct me when I was wrong, but I did most of the talking.

After all this, we started talking about our M.

Now, this did not go perfectly all the time, but we are both getting better at it. The main point is safety. My FWW just simply did not feel safe talking to me. Who can blame her, for the better part of 10 years, it wasn't safe. The second main point is to build up to the R talk. Finally, I did not do this to get my FWW to do anything. I did it because I truly wanted to get to know her. I truly wanted to be better at communicating.

I think its one of the very difficult concepts of MB for people to learn. You can't make your spouse work on the M. You focus on making your self better and marital recovery is the most likely side effect.

We still don't know how its all going to turn out, but we've agreed to keep talking to each other about it.

rprynne, Thanks for the post - It really gave me some things to think about. I'm trying to rush through the process to get past the hurt I guess, and that's not going to cut it.

The topic that we are discussing on Friday is NC, but the honesty issue has been brought up as well. I will lay off the commitment to the marriage and focus on just those things - NC, and how to achieve it, Complete Honesty.

If we can get that past us, I believe I can handle the challenges I will be facing going forward.

With my WW, the OP is not really a long-term option, he's just an outlet. She still thinks of him as her best friend, and is communicating with him via phone, e-mail, and on-line. He's a college kid, and she's 38, he also lives 2000 miles away, and her life is here. She doesn't really see a future there. She still isn't willing to give up the contact though.

I am concentrating on being a better person, not just for her (that's a side effect), but for me. I believe that if I learn from my past mistakes in our M, I will be a better person in all R's, not just the romantic ones, but even the friendly ones.

I am trying to work on the patience issue - hence the wait for the talk. I'm trying not to LB her with any, as she puts it, 'pushing' to get what I need. I'm trying to lay back and accept that she's not ready to decide. This is probably the toughest part about this, and getting it all out on these forums helps a lot <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again for your very helpful post

Prophet = all the best to you. Been where you are. Your sitch looks a lot like mine. THIS IS HARD TO DO. No way arround it. Keep posting. Every step of the way. Worst thing you can do is to let WW set terms. NO pushing.

How was your marriage before the A? My WW thought I was selfishly pushing to get what I needed. I was. I just wanted my life back to semi-normal so I could THEN decide what I wanted do to. I wasn't even sure I wanted her. Are you sure you want your M? You have to be sure for this to work.

Rpyne, this was great:



I need to use this in my recovery. WW is depressed, 1000 miles away and we lost emotional intimacy LONG time ago. Well before the A. What a great way to rebuild it. We need to be talking more on the phone than we are - not I've got juss the thing to fill time and rebuild the bonds. Brilliant!

Prophet, hang tight. Patience and careful stragegy will win. Remember - don't push R and M talk onto a wayward!

Well, last night WW didn't want anything to do with me - I think OM recieved some verbal abuse from some of the people that were exposed to, and she blames me for that.

To deal with the situation, I called a friend (same sex) and talked things over with him. He'd been in this situation a few years back, and I needed the insight. In the spirit of honesty, I told her what I was doing, and simply stepped into the other room to talk.

The fact that I was talking about things openly with another person set her off as well, she was offended by my talking where she could hear snippets of the conversation (if she was listening in).

In the future, I'll tell her that I'm going to talk, and then step outside or go for a walk. I want to continue the honesty (trying to inspire some from her end), but don't want to LB her with the content

I also found out that she picked the day of our talk to be 1 day after OM's 24th birthday - I don't think that's a coincidence even though she promised not to talk to him until then (which she has, on numerous occasions).

Well, we had our 'talk'. She says that right now she isn't comfortable in the M and wants out. She says she can't talk to me anymore because it stresses her out (I haven't talked about the R in a week). I'm moving to Plan B, and she's moving out and getting an apartment. We're separating the finances, and I will go dark.

She's not planning on moving out until she finds a new place. I encouraged her to look for one, and then went to a friend's house.

I'm in a bad place, but at least I am surrounded by friends I am comfortable with, and who support me in all this.

Any advice on how to deal with the actual move out? Should I assist in any way, or just let her handle things on her own? I don't want her to go, but I think since plan A isn't working (she's still in contact, and lying to my face about it), and she wants to go, I should just let her.

Prophet, is there no way you could do a longer Plan A? It's only been 6 or 7 weeks, right? Or, have I lost track? If there is any way you can continue, go right back home and keep on working on yourself. You remember Plan A is about making yourself all you can be, right?

If you can't do Plan A anymore, so be it. I'm of the school of thought that says if a WS wants to move out, she does it all on her own. It's like buying new tires for that old car you're trying to sell--you'll never get back the price you paid for the new rubber. In your case, if you're polite and helpful getting her new place set up, you're not going to gain any points with her and there's a chance she'll lose more respect for you than she already has.

Let Plan B start to work immediately. If things are tough financially right from the get go, well…that's what it's like to live single out there. Don’t support her adultery. Heck, even keep your PC. Let her buy a new one if she wants to communicate with numbnutz. Let her find a new job to support herself totally. Maybe some reality will begin shining through that fog she’s in and she’ll come to her senses.

Good luck with this, Prophet. If there’s a chance to salvage your marriage, this is it.

Unfortunately, I can't do a longer Plan A - she's the one who wants to move out. It has only been 6 weeks. She's still very much in the fog, and I have told her that she's on her own with this. I did say that if she would continue IC with our MC, I would pay for it though.

That's the only thing I'm going to contribute though. We're doing this on a 'friendly separation' basis - She's handing over her checkbook, credit cards, ATM, etc and will open an account in her own name that we will seed with a modest amount to get her setup. After that I will continue to use the existing accounts, and she's on her own with hers. They are still joint accounts however, but I will monitor them closely.

She already has a job that will support her if she gets a *real* modest place (Southern California is really expensive to live in).

I have set a timeframe to legal separation of 3 months (my own internal value), but hopefully we'll never get there...

Me and WH have the same set up. He still deposits his check in our joint account, I pay the bills etc. But I'm pretty sure he's living with OW in his apt. and she's heloing him pay alot of stuff, so he has no reason to see how hard life is being single, while still supporting his family.


Honestly I don't think he'll ever come home. I think they are planning on geting married. OW is "in love" with him. Pressuring him for a committment I think. He said it will be soon.

LH - Well, I may have been premature in my comment that I can't do a longer plan A statement. I talked to her some more (after she spent time looking for apartments online), and told her that I wanted to make things more comfortable at home. I will stand back and stop discussing the M (really haven't been, just discussing boundries, but that has made her not feel safe here).

She said that she'd think about staying at home. I rarely get a firm answer from her lately, but this probably means that she will stay as long as it's confortable. As such, I'm going plan A full force - no R talk (that'll be tough), no pressure to end the A (that will probably have to wait for plan B, or until she decides that she really wants to work on the M). I'll stop asking the questions that she always lies to me about, and just be here for her and basically lay the he11 off.

What do you think about that plan? (I will still be snooping covertly, to see if things taper off with OM, or build back up strong...)

CG - I'm sorry to hear about your situation, He's still depositing money into your account? I know my WW won't be going to OM anytime soon (he's 14 years younger and in college), but if she did, I'm sure that would end things with them much quicker (reality is *much* different from the fantasy).

Hopefully your H will see that as well.

Prophet, if you can continue a Plan A, it's in your best interests to do so. Dr. Harley recommends betrayed husbands try as long as six months, but that's just an average. DO stop the relationship talk; she's not ready for it yet. Of course you continue your snooping. That will be necessary for a long time. Don't apologize for it; don't be embarrassed by it. It's just a thing that must be done.

In your continued Plan A, work on yourself, okay? That's what Plan A is about. You. You set about to improve yourself and make yourself a better person. That has a subliminal effect on wayward spouses. Where no amount of talking will convince them their betrayed mates are a better choice, actually seeing them become better has an effect.

Have you read Pepperband's "Carrot and Stick of Plan A" recently? If you haven't, a review is in order. You are NOT to be a wimpy doormat in Plan A. You are courteous, considerate, you avoid LBs, anger, and DJ's, but you maintain your boundaries.

What are you doing in Plan A to make yourself "all that you can be?" Are you toning up in the gym, or jogging every day? How about that classic novel you've been meaning to read, or the class in woodworking you always wanted to take? Maybe you register for that online course in (whatever) you've been thinking will improve your image with the boss? Get the point? You need to stay busy, and make it a proactive, productive busyness. (Online gaming, btw, is among the LEAST productive of endeavors. Break that habit, friend. It has done nothing for you and much to harm you.)

All of this has an impact on WW whether she acknowledges it or not…indeed whether she even realizes it or not. Then, when a true Plan B becomes necessary, it will be even more effective because she will miss what you have become. See how it works?

Okay, get on with gettin’ on, pardner. This obscenity didn’t bloom suddenly one day and become a part of your life. It won’t end in an afternoon either. Patience, Prophet. Hang in there, okay?

Yeah, his pay still goes into our joint account. He's been a gentleman in that respect, hasn't wiped out the $$. But as I said, I think OW is paying stuff for him at his apt.

I did plan A, slipped up a few times with LB's yesterday when he came to visit. I was kind of sarcastic, but other than that, I've lost a ton of weight, he hasn't even noticed, and am trying to be positive.

I still think he is head over heels for her and they are happily living together. He's waiting for who knows what to dump me. I don't ever see him coming back here. Just by the things he says about the future in conversation, just doesn't seem like it includes me and him.

BTW, she's 17 years younger than him.

LH - Thanks, I needed to hear that. I am working on myself, keeping busy doing some remodeling around the house, going out with friends, working with a personal trainer (26 pounds since D-Day, yay!), etc.

I've also been working on eliminating some of the bad habits I've developed over the years. The biggest thing I'm doing though, is laying off the M talk. I kept looking for answers where there weren't any to be had, and now am trying to act content with the situation as it stands. I'm trying to make home feel 'safe' for WW.

I've read the Carrot and Stick several times, and am trying to implement as best as I can. I have exposed fully, I have expressed (although am not longer trying to force) my boundries, and have requested NC. She's not willing yet (and just lies when I push things), so I'm laying back from that and will wait for Plan B to end things. I just need more time in Plan A for it to be effective. She still feels uncomfortable talking to me, but after a couple of days of just being there and no pressure, she's opening up somewhat (on trivial things, but there is less uneasiness in it).

I'll keep fighting the good fight, and whichever way things go, I know I'll come out the other end a better person for my efforts.

CG - LH's advice to me has been wonderful, if you can get him to come home for a while, and start your own Plan A it would be really helpful.

Big mistake unless you plan on not keeping any money in the account. Joint accoubnt means she can wipe it out at any time and you would have no recourse. If you want to keep a joint account, have only enough money in it to keep it open and then open your own account. If you need to keep that account open, ask the bank for the procedure to remove a joint account holder.

Well, we actually had a pleasant weekend. I think I'm finally doing Plan A correctly <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> At this point, we will not be separating, at least not until I have to implement plan B.

WW seemed a lot less stressed after we talked on Saturday, and now I'm not giving her anyting to be angry at me about, so she's turned some of that anger at OM <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> She was really mad about something he and some of her other freinds did on Saturday. Of course, she couldn't blame him directly, so it was probably someone else's fault (in her mind), but he was a participant.

She was more open and friendly toward me than she had been in weeks, and I am finally getting some sleep, now that I'm only worrying about me, and not her. If things continue this way, I should be able to last through plan A.

SFA - when it does come time for Plan B (and I think it will come to that before she truly goes NC), I will make sure to move the assets to an account that she can't get to. I manage the finances at home, so that should not be a problem.

Ok, I was doing pretty well after a nice weekend, but then found out that while things seemed more relaxed around the home, it was all because she was simply spending more time with OM (online).

Phrases like "I love you", "I miss you", "it's been so hard without being able to talk to you", etc feel like daggers in my heart. (Yes, I was spying).

How can I keep supporting her, meeting her EN's, avoiding LB's, etc when I know this is going on behind my back? Any advice from BS's who were fully aware of the A, but in the middle of plan A while there, would be much appreciated.

I know she thinks she's in love with him, and she was ready to move out to spend more time with him. Should I just turn a blind eye to it for now?

Help please!