I guess i understand that - fantasy is great for us all sometimes BUT - i would never put that out in the world - my kid is a gift from GOD - a gift and i would never renounce her. I understand them and build them myself...

my castle is beautiful = has a woman in it who loves US unconditionally - the way D and I love her. there is laughter and lightness there....kindness there - a HD bigscreen TV there and football season all year long...with the best hot wings and beer (and hooters chicks there too)... i like my castle and it is all mine... BUT my kid exists there too sitting on the sofa with chips and blue cheese dressing up to her elbows, all over her cheeks and up her nose - I don't care how SINGLE i am she is my family and part of the package...never to be left out, discounted or forgotten. she is too important

I understand, CL.

She is.

You are.

I LOVE chips and blue cheese...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You do not bear your WW's consequences for her fantasy...you know reality. You are living love. She isn't. You are looking at true beauty...she isn't. You are filled with laughter (and NO HOOTERS CHICKS!)...and she isn't.

You have MB.

She doesn't.

And if you think there is a neener neener in here...

You might be right.

LA

LA - i know that must have hurt you too...singles copy...they always look for the same person don't they - OP is me - she told me things and everything she described were the traits she once loved in me.

its ugly stuff indeed

OP is a clean slate, CL...this isn't about us.

It isn't.

It is about them.

I know...I was one. Trying to replace your own past takes a huge fantasy...and creates more crap. Why do you think I say, "Stay present" so much?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for noticing...truly, the hurt comes back as if it is happening in the present, sometimes...and then it leaves, just as fast. A drive-by emotion...after I've trained my brain not to hand it to me...sometimes it forgets and does...and poof...I kick it out.

I hurt for you because you are BH and I hurt my BH terribly. I know this. OP is a clean slate...fantasy fodder. Not real.

FWW have their own version of heck, I promise, CL. Won't always see it from the outside...and ironically, in recovery, FWS pain is really difficult to bear.

Right now, though, I bet you could bear it really well.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

LA

yes LA - i could bear it well...any sign of emotion, empathy, remorse would be a relief....even if she didn't come back to the marriage - to at least know she is not a brick wall and has some compassion for her D and me...to know what she is doing to our lives and our extended families.

she said she thought karma was coming to get her - with the window - she knows she is failing - but that cowgirl needs to muscle up and be an adult woman.

she has told me i was weak - and had no spine...i have never been stronger - for my daughter and myself...my spine is titanium.

I am surprised at her lack of strength - and her overwhelming weakness.
life is not easy - responsibilities of home, children, is not easy - but it takes character - strength - and spine to muscle up.

You know, the heart is a muscle.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

CL,

"" karma was coming to get her - with the window - she knows she is failing""

She is reveling in her misery and dispair. This also gives her rationalization to behave this way. She does not want to muscle up! She wants to play the bad girl. She digs the drama.

I have no idea what could snap her out of this.

It would be interesting to talk man to man with the OM and let him know her history and "warn" him off...in a good way...worrying about HIS wellfare.

Didn't the previous dude kinda do the same for you?

How long have you been married? (sorry, too lazy to research the past threads)

YOU are the strong one..the rock for your DD. That is the most important thing right now, her well being.

We all are praying for you.

k

hey krusht - thanks for the prayers - i need em.

yep her last ex did warn me...i didn't want to hear it. we've been married 5 years.

she does enjoy the spiral...and i think she is waiting for me to snap...

i have no idea how to snap her out of it at this point either. if her kid isn't enough - losing her home isn't enough...????

personally OM really plays a small part in this...this lunacy...she is self destructiving and i think she likes it?

CL,

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the lunacy begin when she started the new job. Mucho pressure, going out with the office staff, talking about her work all the time. Like becoming immersed in it?

She was a stay at home mom before and everything was cool?

yeah - she works in television...when we met - she was pretty high level - then she called her boss something very unsavory - which i can't even put in writing - lets just say it begins with the letter C...anyway whe was bitterly angry and said this to one of her coworkers - thenquit before they could fire her - we were together 9 months and i started supporting her.

then she moved in and took a couple of odd jobs - ended up hating everyone at those jobs and quit.

then she took another tv job - we had the baby at this point...she worked there for a year - again hated her boss - and screwed them over and left. at this point she asked if she could be a stay at home mom. she did this for a year and a half - at first (like always) everything was GREAT! she thanked me - told me she was soooooooooo happy, etc...but then i could tell she was staring to resent being at home...then she started to hate it this is her M.O.)

Then she contacted the boss at the last tv job - to see if she could come back - they told her no...bridge burnt.

then she landed this contract job...it ends in 3rd week in June...
people at her job have made mention - that she has issues...and are wondering what the ****** is wrong with her...i don't know what OM thinks of her...but she is the type that makes you want to save her you know?

now - this is it all she talks about - someone at her work even went so far as to say they thought she was Obsessive compulsive and needed meds.
she sucks up to her boss to the point of it being neauseating. and Op is her supervisor....but this company is so whacked that they don't care about interoffice relationships...because it is contract work - they will be gone soon enough.

OP is her supervisor on a contract job? Still might fall under sexual harrassment...wanna check it out?

Yes, she has some major issues, CL...maturity isn't her strong suit...and you admit she attracts those who like to save her...which means winning through victimhood.

How are you not contributing to her victimhood? Still handing back those choices? Have you started IC for you and your DD? (Family therapy would be a great idea, whether WW goes or not.)

LA

I have been in IC counseling. counselor said if i were to just think about D then i need to get WW out of the house...that her actions and interactions with D are abusive...and abusive to me for that matter.

her supervisor is also contract...but they are VERY loose there...apparently lots of interoffice relationships...can i file suit - never really thought about that angle???

I just got off of the phone with her family...they said it is time for her to go - that i need to scream cry get angry do what i need to do for me - but now it is time for me to look out for me and D and STOP looking out for her (which i have been doing) but that she is an adult and needs to stop the abuse and go. they said what you said LA - pack up her boxes, change the locks and send her on her way...

they said whatever i need they are there for me and D, that we are loved and we are always welcome.

apparently she called them last week and said we were seperated - but offered no other info then that.

i told them everything and that we were not seperated by my choice. (seperated - that is a joke when she is still living here)...they are horrified by her behavior...but not surprised. they told me she would never find anyone like me...and intended on telling her that - and much more. they keep trying to contact her but don't get her...they are calling her tomorrow...i hope they get her.

i really thought she would come around...but i don't believe she will anymore.

Oh, she may still come around, CL...not within your power...but I have the belief that at some point, people stop recreating...they get that bolt of lightning within...they break their own cycle.

Takes what it takes.

Never know.

However...I do think you should look into the sexual harassment law...just a look...and do you have "Alienation of Affection" in your state?

Hmmm...see, what might look like self-preservation and respectful consequences...can work without you manipulating them into greater good...you're just part of the fabric, like me...choosing from your code frees you from unravelling.

Oh, am I have a terrible image night or what? I'm laughing at myself in my posts. LOL. I think it is because I trust you to get it...and I'm growing downright lazy!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

One word of advice on her family...I know they are supportive of you, and that matters...and I am happy they do not condone what their DD is doing...just remember, her FOO contributed to her false self, which she runs from...tread carefully. She was attracted to you to work out those issues...somewhere in there, you've got a part...

If you needed affirmation you're not to blame...you got it. Here, there and everywhere. Know human limits...they help with our expectations, frustration, anger and pain...

I said I was separated and we lived in the same house...different rooms. My WH said he was separated...most WS's say this...to everyone. Justification. You're learning how each human has their own truth and how twisted it can get.

Back to the fabric image, aren't I?

I think I have a run in my creativity.

LA

all this fabric...my fabric - our fabric - is turning into quite the quilt...thank you. us writers..we could take this metaphor and really run with it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

you said - Oh, she may still come around, CL...not within your power...but I have the belief that at some point, people stop recreating...they get that bolt of lightning within...they break their own cycle.

BUT is it a safe place for me and a safe place to raise my d in? on manyselfish levels i want her back - i want her love with all its fierce and fieryness - BUT for my 3 year old - i don't know if it is better to cut our losses and rebuild our life - peacefully and eventually - down the road - find someone without all the issues someone trustworthy...

yes she justifies and places blame on everyone but herself...she chooses not to see her actions - chooses not to be responsible - chooses shallow nothingness - adolescent self destriction over simple joy and family. she twists and turns everything onto everyone else.

I recently read and article on sociopaths and WAYWARD SPOUSES display sociopathic behavior.... (too good not to share)

here is a list of common characteristics: lemme know whatcha think <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

List of Common Sociopathic Traits:
Egocentricity; Callousness; Impulsivity; Conscience defect; Exaggerated sexuality; Excessive boasting; Risk taking; Inability to resist temptation; Antagonistic, Lack of interest in bonding with a mate

Sociopathy is chiefly characterized by something wrong with the person's conscience. They either don't have one, it's full of holes like Swiss cheese, or they are somehow able to completely neutralize or negate any sense of conscience or future time perspective. Sociopaths only care about fulfilling their own needs and desires - selfishness and egocentricity to the extreme. Everything and everybody else is mentally twisted around in their minds as objects to be used in fulfilling their own needs and desires. They often believe they are doing something good for society, or at least nothing that bad.

I'm not saying do not separate, divorce...these are consequences...you don't know future, though...you better take that good long 18 months or so to gather yourself afterward...and stay alert...that's all...

No commitment from you, except the one to yourself and DD...right?

And good luck on finding someone without all the issues...they don't show until after the fusion stage...honestly.

LOL

We all have baggage...issues...lessons...

Every notice how close sociopathic behaviors are to young children...I believe WS's are living their inner child...no wonder they lie to control, hide from themselves, live in fantasy and want what they want right now, this minute?

We call it innocence in children...and it is. Our expectations rise with our height...don't they?

Okay...WS don't see everyone as objects...they use their partner to justify their affair...that's no object; they use another person as a fantasy...nope, I'm going with children.

And they can wake up, too...be returned from the mothership...and be lost, dismayed, appalled...or not.

What if we have these moments of such deep entitlement that we believe we are saving ourselves from drowning...and it is us or them (and them happens to be a loving family, in reality...and anchors in their fantasy)...doesn't make us sociopaths...we just act like them.

I dunno...I don't buy biological narcissism, either. Just me. I'm ignorant.

I was stunned at my WH's depth of cruelty...gleeful cruelty...and he hasn't chosen to be cruel since. I got to see a lot of H...more than he'd shown before...all of him...and I feel blessed because I know what he isn't choosing...and see his choice.

I'm not where you are...I'm saying that whatever action you choose (and I think your plan is solid), that doesn't mean she won't come around...may not be your choice to try to recover later...I am praying for that remorse, that life-changing consciousness...for her, for you, for DD.

If you've seen my Owning All Your Villagers Thread, you know that I believe what angers us most in other's, we have in ourselves.

Just another day to learn, CL.

Hey, did you know Mulan is a writer, too?

(Fabrically speaking...I hear you saying you're hanging on by a thread.)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

I got a call from her father this morning...he is driving here to see her - she doesn't know this yet. He is in shock...but he said he had a feeling something was up because when she drops of the earth like she has done these past 2 months...it usually means something is coming.

do i tell her he is coming?

i am a little panicky about how this is going to play out...any input is welcome

Heck no, you don't tell her. Do NOT try to shield her from the consequences of her adultery, man. Having her father disapprove, and make his disapproval emphatically clear to her, is one of those consequences. By exposing, you're trying to shock her out of her Fantasy Land and bring her out of the fog. Her father coming up to see her will help do that.

""Having her father disapprove, and make his disapproval emphatically clear to her, is one of those consequences. By exposing, you're trying to shock her out of her Fantasy Land and bring her out of the fog. Her father coming up to see her will help do that.""

I'm sure her father has been doing this all his and her life. Who better to know what his daughter is like?

So, WHAT HAPPENED?????????? Give us the scoop.

k

Well i hadn't even spoken to her father yet...i talked to her birth mothers family who is pretty local. Her mother died in child birth with WW - so she never had her mom...and her step mother - lets just say WW referes to as the step B****.

anyway her dad called me this morning - told me he hadn't heard from W in months - and that is never good. Said they are going to be nearby and are going to stop in to see the baby. Anyway - when he asked what was up I told him. His reaction was a outraged "are you kidding me!!??!!" then he went onto say that she was rasied by her step mother (he and wife recently D - after 35 years) and she had alot of issues...that he knew i loved her and was good to
her and did everything a person could do to make her happy. that i was going to be ok - was the baby ok - and could i take on the house.

I saw W today for the first time in 3 days...and i felt nothing - but vague disgust. I am thinking he might be a little too late - a month ago i would have been so happy - but i spoke to him before i saw her and after i picked her up - I just wanted her to go back to whereever she came from....she informed me she is going to a ball game with friends from work and of course OP is going - nothing i say or do matters. she does as she pleases...and i told him this.

he was real upset...and wants to talk some sense into her. YES i want her to feel the consequences - BUT i don't want to shot myself in the foot -- and make this uglier then it is. I am hoping for little to no drama...but don't know if wwwis caught so of guard that that is possible.

anyone have any ideas on how to manage this little intervention?

and now - i also don't know if i even want to try with this woman - i have lived in this abusive ****** for months - and have begun to enjoy my life on my own - i don't have a clue as to what to do with all of this now...

help