I haven't posted in a while but am still actively absorbing info from this site: need help with recent dilema.

H went to vegas for work after I expressed concern about the locale(he had another less party-type option but opted for vegas instead). For the 2.5wks he was there he continued to call and update me on most of his activities including evening outings with friends.On one occassion he did say that a girlfriend and a roomate(female) of his friends' joined the group after dinner.

2nites after his return he stayed for a movie(He's still in his condo) and his cell rang at about 12am. He was obviously uncomfortable and took the call into the office beside the family room. I could hear "not too much, nothing etc" while he chatted with several different people.

I asked the who what where when deal his answer was "nothing happened but "the girls" were out with "the group" several times but I didn't mention it because I didn't want a conflict over the phone." To be fair it was his buddy that made the call from dinner with his girlfriend, roomate and her friend alias "the girls". Why would these girls make a call to him from a dinner out?

Am I over reacting? What about the fact that he didn't tell them "I'm watching a movie with apl/my wife". Am I expecting too much, he feels like he can't do anything right.

He says he was so proud of the way he behaved while he was away even if I was in the room it would have been accpetable. He didn't want to mess up something that has been going so well.

We are still inMC and IC, am I just being too naive? He's upset because I expect him to behave as a married man but I'm not allowing him to move back in(I don't want tthe kids to go thru another disappointment). I still feel he bahaves in his best interest at the expense of me and the kids and until that changes I don't want him back in the house.

Am I too harsh?

Under reacting.

How often do you find yourself dropping your standards in order to meet him at the level he is not willing to move beyond?

What is the truth..are you really and truly going to insist on change in your marriage?

or

Are you going to allow him to continue to live as a selectively married man who is unwilling to commit to behaving as a married man without instant gratification?

Remember..the terms he returns on..will be the bar..he won't extend beyond them once he has dodged the bullet.

Going out on dates with his single friends and a couple of floozies they managed to pick up...is not and never will be acceptable and faithfull behavior. His reactions are a huge red flag. Huge. Whether "anything" happened at the hotel room [rolls eyes] the tracks were layed. He's gonna need to step out of this juvenile mindset and decide what he REALLY wants and is willing to bleed for in his life. Until he does this..he's going to flip flop between the two lifestyles as he wishes. Married when he feels like it..single when he doesn't.

Are you being too harsh? From where I'm standing you could use a lot MORE spine and still be in the realm of easy going.

Noodle, thanks for the input. Just to set the facts straight, he was staying at a friends house and the girls were his friends roomate, his girlfriend and another female friend. This doesn't excuse the fact that he neglected to mention their presence at dinner etc but he didn't actively include them in the evening activities-his friend invited them on a couple of nights without his knowledge.

That being said, I do agree with your point about setting the bar. We just attended Mc this morning and I brought up the sitch. I pointed out that the defense of a mistake is almost as hurtful as the mistake itself. The Mc derived that he didn't cop to the sitch while he was in vegas because he doesn't trust that I will still be here.

In other words, he's afraid if he makes one more mistake, he's out so if anything happens that he thinks will reflect badly on him(even if nothing happened) then he won't tell me about it. He doesn't feel guilty because he know he didn't do anything wrong.

The MC pointed out that it's not just behavior of a married man he should be concerned about but more importantly the behavior of a married man trying to re-establish trust. Remove yourself from the sitch and judge it "on paper"-does it look acceptable now? In light that this man is trying to re-establish his W trust in him?

Of course, he responded with "no, now it looks like the guy's an idiot". OK, now we're getting somewhere!

Onwards, one step at a time...

So...

Basically you are STILL dealing with a complete and total lack of genuine remorse.

The details are not significant. Don't get lost in them.

A person who is trying to dodge the bullet is not a person taking responsibility for themselves either historically or presently.

He is still saying..how close to the perimeter can I get before the alarm goes off? Rather than..Oh look..there's the boundary..I'll go the OTHER direction...keep a nice buffer between it and myself.

Since MB utilizes imagery involving bank accounts..try this on for size..and maybe bring it up in MC.

Say a person wants to open a small business..you are the lender.

You look at this persons credit [history regarding integrity, faithfullness, responsible behavior] and it is dismal.

Then you look at their CURRENT account balance and banking history..and find that they live check to check despite an income that exceeds their needs. Every week they get as close to zero as they think they can get away with..occasionally bouncing a check here and there.

When you ask them about their spending habits they refuse to take responsibility for their choices and demonstrate no comprehension of consequences and specifically no comprehension of the risk and accountability they are asking YOU the prospective lender to assume.

Is this person a good candidate for a loan?

No, of course not. They are immature, untrustworthy, impulsive, dishonest and manipulative.

What would need to change in order for you to reconsider? Keep in mind wishfull thinking will not keep the electricity on if the bill goes unpaid. Your desire for this person to be worthy of trust will not make it so.

Perhaps this will help him to look at his situation in such a way that he can "see" himself without making it too personal and getting lost in details.

A WS will often attempt to distract from the main issue with details..such as the ones you just corrected me on.

I may have misinterpreted the EXACT scenario..but the base line was not changed..unless the detail is truly relevent to the issue at hand dismiss it and stay on target.

My .02

Oh,

Continuing the bank account theme.

Remember a time when you were young..and some "crisis" happened. Say the car broke down. You were living very close to the line as it were. It cleaned you out to fix it..or perhaps you couldn't fix it and chaos ensued.

The lack of a good healthy "buffer" between yourself and a zero balance had the ability to impact EVERY area of your life.

Suddenly..not only did you not have a car..you didn't have money for groceries..or to wash clothes..etc etc.

You see what I'm saying?

Now fast forward..you are older and wiser. The SAME problem with a car happens.

You write a check and fix the problem.

There is no crisis.

If your H can embrace this concept..it would help to alleviate the ONE LAST CHANCE fear that may be keeping him from radical honesty.

If he remains at a zero balance..EVERY problem will be a CRISIS.

If he creates a buffer..a pattern of GOOD decisions and responsible choices that take YOU and your feelings into consideration..then the occasional poor decision is MUCH less likely to shake the foundations of the earth.

apl

I agree with every thing the others said. I like the bank account analogy.

Here's my two cents. I always ask my FWW one question. How would you feel if....?

How would your FWH feel if you went to visit Vegas everything was the same sitch. IE Female friend, her boyfriend and a male roommate. I can tell you right now there is no way in ****** even if my wife didn't have an A that would be acceptable to me.

I like to look at things through my pre A glasses as well. Would that have bothered me even if she didn't have an A? The answer that scenario would be a resounding yes.

If later she told me she did that I would probably jump to the conclusion something happened. Why lie or omit facts about something innocent.

You are right he is a married man trying to win back your trust. This is not the way to do it.

He easily could have avoided the situation and not worried about the last straw.

I wouldn't over react but he needs to know that was not acceptable and you will not accept that in the future.

Noodle, you are very perceptive. Excellent analogy and very useful as H loves to work with finances. Thanks for putting it in perpective for me.

Years, you are right, it wouldn't have been acceptable before A either so I should stop making excuses for him.

I think I just want this to work so bad, we have 3kids under 11yrs and they love their D. I want to have the love feelings I had for him before and I want to feel secure and protected in the relationship.

In MC yesterday the Mc asked him what he was afraid of if he had told me about the nights out...he said he was afriad I would leave. He doesn't feel that he deserves me because I haven't done anything "wrong" and he's made all the mistakes.

I helped to point out that my big mistake was in not speaking up for myself which allowed him to assume his behavior was acceptable. This is a pattern which has dominated our relationship for about the last 12yrs.

I still need all your reassurances that I am not overreacting to his behaviors as it is such a detour from my usual response(accepting everything he does as Ok).

Thank you so much for your input, I continue to try...

apl

He probably can't understand how you can still love him.

BTW you have probably done alot wrong just nothing this big. I know I did alot wrong as well but again nothing as big as FWW's A.

As far as accepting everything he deos as ok. Either you can jump into my boat or me yours because we are in the same boat on this one.

Before my FWW's A (which happened when she was on an extended vacation back east with the kids) I told her I was worried she was going to have an A. I felt this because i accepted all of her behaviors that led to it. Drinking, flirting,etc. Now every pattern of behavior I accepted absolutely led to her A. She went out drinking started flirting guy got the wrong/right idea and boom. Of course when I brought it to her attention she said I had nothing to worry about.

Now I hold her to task. If she crosses a boundry I let her know. I will A proof my marriage. Everything she does is not OK if it is a LB for me.

I didn't speak up for myself recently and guess what it caused problems. We had to switch apartments because they are renovating. She wanted a smaller more expensive apartment. So far nobody I have spoken to could understand why anyone would pay more for a smaller apartment. My FWW had her mind set thats what she wanted. I didn't stand up for myself. The day we moved in she regretted it. Imagine my resentment when I did everything I could to talk her out of it and realized if we didn't move in I would never hear the end of it.

She has now gone through her obligatory 3 days of remorse and is ready to move on and never be reminded again what a bad move it was. Guess what I have a year left on a lease.

Years, thanks for reality check. I'm still trying to get used to "speaking up". It used to be it caused him to be so p*ssed that I finally didn't bother anymore, it wasn't worth the hassle(or so I thought). Now it makes him feel badly because it reminds him of the bad choices he's made so the nuturer in me comes out and doesn't want to be so tough on him.

I understand your point about how it affects things not just at that time but further down the road. Now you're stuck in the smaller space for another year. Sorry to hear that, can it be called "more cozy?". LOL

Thanks again for the feedback.

apl

No it cannot. She is actually making it worse instead of better. We can here the TV in every room of the apartment because of the lay out. I had to buy a corner entertainment center because of the living room set up. She keeps walking out asking if I can turn the TV down because it faces toward our bedroom. It is driving me crazy. We have been there since Thursday and last night after running into each other in the kitchen 5 times I was getting agitated. Then she walks out and says can you turn the TV down. I said it isn't that loud it's just a small place.

I heard "Ok are you trying to make me feel bad, how long are you going to rub it in my face etc"

She went to an AA meeting last night and told everyone about it. They all said wait smaller apartment more money, why? Then they asked why I let it happen. She said because if he didn't he would never hear the end of it. But 5 days later I am still agitated and thats not fair to her. LOL.

My wife actually told me the other day she is no longer going to make decesions because they turn out to be bad. She wants me to make them all.(her words) I do not want this. I have enough to deal with don't need to be Daddy to someone.

It seems that all of her decesions have really affected our past, present and future.

Any way I am glad you are establishing boundries and sticking to them. Good for you. I am a door mat no more!!!

Poor boundaries on the part of the BS are a very big [and often overlooked imo] part of As.

Think about it.

No one goes from 0 to 60 that fast. It is not a part of the makeup of the human psyche. We work up to things.

The A..was a manifestation or consequence of behaviors that were ALREADY present and tolerated.

Did you as the BS tolerate and accept a withdrawn or underinvested spouse?

Did you trust when the behaviors were untrustworthy?
[clubs/bars..girls/boys night out spouses expressly excluded.. to name a few]

Did you have that inkling/intuition on several occasions that you were not being told the WHOLE truth...but fail to follow up?

Did you allow your standards to be lowered? In LOTS of areas?

Allow me a few choice examples..

Unaccounted for time. WS home late, leave early..explanation fishy?

WS fidgety at home..like there's somewhere they need to be or would rather be?

LOADS of private computor time?

WS not introducing you..or not includung you in recreation/friendships?

Ever realize that your working knowledge of how their time is spent is pretty shoddy?

WS drinking more than you are comfortable with?

Claiming to have drunk far less than they appear to have?
[H used to claim that he had "a" beer..when I could smell him from the other side of the door without opening it]

Pacifying rather than confronting conflict?

Failure or refusal to drop the axe when you KNOW that you are uncomfortable with the situation?

The list goes on and on.

I think that THIS is a very big part of the gross and total lack of respect the WS has for the BS during this time.

They are getting away with murder and they know it. They also know that they haven't been able to completely cover their tracks in every instance..our failure to address and confront gives the impression that we are either very stupid..or very weak.

Again..I'm not saying that this is causative..I don't believe that one person can be held accountable for another persons behavior under any circumstances..but I'd put this on the second step..sort of the flip side of the unmet EN coin.

Noodle, you're making me think so hard I can see steam. Yes, I think I definitely allowed bad behavior to continue without confrontation. Anytime I expressed an opinion opposite to his own I was wrong, anytime I questioned his work involvement I was unapprecitive of all he did for this family.

I am trying to be more consistent in holding him accountable for his own behavior and demanding respect for my opinion even if it differs from his own.

I can see where his respect for me would naturally erode because he never had to take responsibility for his actions.
I enable the selfishness to continue by not taking him to task, coddling him.

Thanks again for the very insightful input, I continue to try...