I've been reading for a couple weeks now (this time around) and have seen several inaccurate conclusions about AA, the steps, and how they work on a day to day basis.

Some folks that I've seen post have just enough information to be dangerous to the uninformed.

So far Banyak and one other I can't remember are the only ones that have been giving accurate and complete information...the rest that I've seen are either severely misinformed or have such a negative and biased opinion towards the workings of AA that they have let their predjudice taint the information they are attempting to convey. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

I would ask that those of you who haven't read the big book of AA or attended AA meetings refrain from giving partial or inaccurate information to other posters.

I say this because we are dealing with a deadly disease and the wrong information or advice...tainted or otherwise...could kill.

I've been struggling with the idea of posting as I used to come here years ago after the A.
Being here now is tough as it causes me to face memories that are difficult for me after the A that I had. However, I had to put principals before personalities and voice my opinion on the AA information I've seen.

272 Joe...happy, joyous, and free.

What misinformation has been presented?

I too am interested in seeing these misrepresentations. Joe, can you provide the links? I'm a friend of Bill W. also...

Gib

What exactly are you referring to? Can you site a specific example?

Joe, I am also a 21 yr member of AA and would be interested in finding out what inaccurate information has been given. I think its important to be specific, otherwise folks won't understand what you mean.

I think you have a valid point regarding AA and misinformation.

I realize I may be guilty of spreading misinformation about the program not based on ignorance of the steps and the program but from what my FWW says.

I think I have seen some great changes in my FWW but when she comes home and says something to the effect of how lucky I am because other people have done much worse then her I know this is not what the intent of AA is.

She also misinteprets other messages she receives and uses them to justify her actions today. Now this may be what you are reading into as misinformation about the program but that misinformation is actually being twisted by the person in AA to suit their goal.

I have read the 12 steps. I have gone to meetings and I have attended Alanon. I know what she is saying is not true to the program. I do warn people of that.

I also do not personally believe that alcohol is the cause of all of my FWW actions. She choses to make it the reason for everything. I tell people to study the alcoholics actions at all times and not let them use that as a crutch.

When I realized my FWW was an alcoholic I studied up on the "disease" to make sure I was informed.

I do agree with everyone else that you should be specific about what you are talking about. I also believe that you have been in the program for 21 years and can really understand the message. Think back to when you were first getting sober did you misinterpret some of the information you recieved? Thats why you have a sponser to help you understand the message and not misinterpret what is being said.

If my H did not go to AA and STAY THERE

we'd be divorced.

Pep

Pep

Good for you. I feel the same if FWW falls again I know I will walk.

I think the program has done wonders. She is going to step 4 which is farther then she has made it the last 2 times.

Then again I might leave anyway. LOL.

if my H started drinking I might not divorce him, but I would not live with him while he drinks

been there
done that
never again

it brings out THE WORST in me

Pep

Another good point. I have two kids and I refuse to expose them to that ever again. Sometimes I feel like the worst father in the world for letting it go so long. They like the new mommy much better. They never knew if they were going to get jekell or hyde. The six year old even told her so. He is much closer to me then her because of the addiction and I can see how much it bothers her.

Sad when a youngster comes to daddy for comfort all the time. It is a cross she has to bear and hopefully one day their relationship will be stronger. To bad the 10 year old was so attached to her because she was a Stay at home mom. I know he is going to need counseling over it one day.

My dad was an alcoholic can't believe I made the same mistakes over and over.

It brings out the worst in me two. I never want to pick her up off the bathroom floor again and tell my kids mom got too much sun today.

Thanks for the vote of confidence 272 Joe...

I think you're right...AA related advise shouldn't be given 'off the cuff'.

Take care.

YOH,

Have you gone to Al-Anon?

LA

Sorry for the delay...had a long day!

I know you folks would like specifics, however I don't want to 'flame' any one so let me say this...

There was one poster in particular that got my dander up...he was posting to someone else with an alcoholic in their life and said:

'it is scary for them because lets face it one of the steps is making amends when possible'

Step 9 is Make direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

'Two to three days a week she goes out and blows off steam at a meeting while I am home watching two kids.'

Meetings are to share our experience, strength and hope with eachother in the hope that we can solve our common problem of alcoholism. The other option is drinking. Would you prefer that?

'I am not trying nor have I tried to say they will be selfish'

AA is a selfish program and for success the alcoholic HAS to come first. In my relationship with my wife and kids they all understand that my meetings are priority and without them they wouldn't have a husband or father.

'Make sure he has an active sponsor, make sure he does this this way, make sure he does...etc...'

There are no 'make sure's' in the AA program of recovery. AA guarantees one thing and one thing only, and that is if you don't have that first drink, you won't get drunk. This responsibility falls on the alcoholic...not those around him or her.

The program of AA is a 'get out what you put in' program.
It doesn't come by osmosis, you don't get it by thinking about it. The only way to get sobriety is to take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth. Shut up and listen, do the steps, read the Big Book and get a sponsor.

The way I've picked my sponsors (which was suggested to me by another member of the program) is to go to different meetings with different people and LISTEN to what they're saying, go for coffee with them etc...and find someone who I think has what I want. When I first got to AA I picked someone who was 5 yrs sober, been at the same job for 4 years and had a smile on his face and laughing eyes. UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHOULD MEN SPONSOR WOMEN OR VICE-VERSA.

Under no circumstances should the spouse tell the alcoholic what to do regarding his or her program.

I hope that helps clarify things.

'Keep it Simple',
272 Joe

272

That was me so let me answer your questions. I think I did in my previous post here but lets try it again so we can get your dander under control.

'it is scary for them because lets face it one of the steps is making amends when possible'

Step 9 is Make direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

This statement is from my FWW. Her sponser told her the same thing. So is it not scary to realize at some point step 9 that you need to make amends. For my FWW she is dragging her feet a little(her admission) because she is afraid to get there. Like I said I can only go by what she has told me. But what is the misinformation in that statement? AT some point they need to make amends. Maybe it was the "some point" part. I think you would agree that different people get to step 9 at different times. Some quicker then others. So at some time when they get to step 9 which for each individual will be different as far as the specific amount of time it takes to get to that step.

The selfish response was to the fact that they will not be selfish in every aspect of their lives. The AA part yes.

'Two to three days a week she goes out and blows off steam at a meeting while I am home watching two kids.'

Meetings are to share our experience, strength and hope with eachother in the hope that we can solve our common problem of alcoholism. The other option is drinking. Would you prefer that?

No and if you look at my posts I do not perfer her to drink. I would not be in the same home with her if she did. While she was at her meetings her sharing is blowing off steam as she puts it. They each get five minutes to Share my FWW likes to call it blowing off steam or getting something off of her chest. Then she shares how she deals with it differently now. But again since she calls it blowing off steam I used her words in my post.

As a "normy" as they call us it is sometimes difficult to deal with. Sometimes I do get a little resentful that my life sometimes revolves around the program. Am I a bad person for that? With our lives right now with our kids and the program I don't have time for myself very often. We need to get to an MC but quite frankly I have put that on hold because we don't have the time. I want her to get better so we can be better.

Ok Make sure was a bad choice of words. My wifes first two sponsors, were not as active as my FWW needed. Her current sponsor checks in with her daily sometimes twice a day. She constantly invites her to meetings so she goes. Her current sponser is prompting her(not making sure) to work her steps vigilantly. I cannot be 100% sure but I think if she had this sponser the first or second time around she may have stayed with the program or stayed longer with the program.

I think that you would probably agree that the better the sponsor the better your chance of sucess. Better meaning I agree you should pick a sponsor that suits you and your personallity best. Don't want to be unclear about what better means.

And finally I never said to tell your spouse what to do with their program.

So there you go. The make sure part was a bad use of words. Let me then put it this way. Be careful if they do not have a good sponsor(again good meaning one that they feel comfortable with etc.). Be careful.... Because for my FWW without those things she was not successfull. And when I say be careful I mean don't get your hopes up. Stay positive about it but if they start missing meetings and their sponsor is not calling them you could be getting into a danger zone. I could not make my wife go to meetings, not my program, and her first two sponsors didn't even call to check on her if she missed a few days. Her current sponsor does. My FWW needs that. She actually feels guilty now for missing meetings because she feels as though she is letting her sponsor down.


Oh one more be careful while I am at it. Be careful if the sponsors schedule is not condusive to meeting regularly to work the steps with your partner. My FWW second sponsor was so busy they met once every three weeks to work on steps. her current sponsor meets her once a week to work on them.

I have gone to AlAnon. I am an Adult Child of An Alcoholic. My father passed away 5 years ago. After his first trip to the hospital they told us he was going to die. Some how he miraculously made it out alive. They told him if he drank again he would die. Five years of sobriety and he started drinking again and passed away a year later. I wonder if he would have been in the program if he would have made the same choice to drink again. He never worked the program.

So thank Bill for the program and thank my wifes sponsor for helping her through this.

BTW good for you having 21 years under your belt.

And just to let you know to be fair I am skeptical about the success rate of the program. Every report I have read gives varying sucess rates some as high as 25% and some as low as 1%-5% for long term sobriety.

The success rate of AA is not recorded, so no one knows. If they claim to, they are lying. AA doesn't have to prove anything, nor do they try. AA works for those who work the program. Folks get out of it exactly what they put into it.

However, I know that with alcoholics IN GENERAL, according to one study I read several years ago, only 1 in 10 will die sober. And I tend to believe that.

Mel

I understand the philosophy that "AA works for those who work the program". I am not sure I agree with the philosophy in itself.

There have been studies about the success rate from samples and they are really not that good. After my FWW second attempt at sobriety with that program I did extensive research on AA because I wanted to know more about the program from the outside. Not what AA says or Al Anon says.

When you say AA has nothing to prove how can that be. If you were going into an operation wouldn't you want to know the success rate? If you have a 5% chance of staying sober by going to a rehab for a month and a 5% chance of staying sober through AA why not just go to rehab? Same chance of staying sober without the lifelong commitment.

I am not trying to bash the program at all. I have gone to meetings with my FWW on three occasions and what really stood out to me was how many people were under 60 days sober. There were very few people there with years under their belt. This scares the heck out of me.

yoh, AA has to prove nothing. They make no claims about anything. If you don't agree with the philosophy of the program, then reject it and move on. That is your prerogative.

They are not recruiting members; members join of their own volition. Membership is free. This is a program that has worked for untold thousands of folks for over 50 years. If folks want what we have, they can have it if they are willing to work for it. If they don't want it, fine.

But AA does not have to prove anything; they are not trying to prove anything. They are not trying to recruit anyone and attendance is completely voluntary.

And yes, alcoholism is a very scary disease. Most DON'T MAKE it. Before AA, NO ONE made it. Now, at least some can.

If you have "doubts" about the program just tell your W to quit. It is no sweat off us. Perhaps her way works better? Perhaps you know of a better way yourself? That's cool!

P.S. there are no legitimate "studies" of AA since AA does not keep records. Never have, never will. Not even the least bit concerned about it.

p.p.s. Also, if you went to a meeting, it was likely an OPEN meeting which is for NEWCOMERS. The oldsters usually stick to CLOSED meetings. So, of course you will see lots of new people there.

Meetings vary dramatically, though, and it wouldn't be uncommon to go to one that has a lot of long term sobriety and very few newcomers.

How many years sobriety does your W have?

Y O H,

Thank you for the explanation, I am starting to understand you a little better. The info about your dad I did read in a early post, it is still upsetting to hear about these type of things.

I have one question regarding your feelings towards the program in relation to your dad, and this question is not ment to be offensive in any way shape or form. The question is... Do you hold the program responsible for your father's death, and is that holding you back from giving your W the support and encouragement she needs from you?

How long is your W sober this time?

As she gets more time sober the desire/compulsion to drink will subside to where it's not first and formost in her face 24/7. When this happens the need to eat, breathe, and sleep AA will diminish somewhat allowing you guys to have more freedom in your lifestyle. I understand how you're feeling about the time she spends with you and the kids vs the program. As she gets more time and completes more steps the sanity level will return and you guys will become a stronger family unit because of it.

Steps 4 & 5 are the make or break for sobriety. In all my years in the program I have never seen anyone with more than 5 years who hasn't done a 4 & 5.

Your wife will get to step 9 when she becomes willing and that will happen only after she finishes steps 4 - 8. It can be a long drawn out process, but it sounds like the sponsor she has is pushing her to do the steps so she can get on with the rest of her life as a healthy, contributing individual. There are no timelines in the program, as you know, and everyone makes the program suit them. It appears your wife has asked for the help to do the steps with her sponsor, and her sponsor is willing to do the work necessary to accomplish that. Try not to be too critical and demanding when it comes to the program. But, if it's a situation where she's talking program and your thinking it's BS try calling her on it.

I know ACOA is centered around 'adult children' and where we live there are some ACOA/Al-Anon meetings. You may want to move your focus to Al-Anon so that you have a different understanding of the program because of the different relationship you have with your wife compared to your father.

There is more I'd like to say, but it's late up here and work comes early, so I have to sign off now.

Have a great day.

One day at a time.

272 Joe

P.S.
My dander isn't up any more, and I don't hold grudges. LOL

No I do not blame my Fathers circumstances on the program. I blame them on him and his compulsion to drink in the face of death. He knew the consequences and was fine with them. He even told me he would rather drink and party and live for 6 months then not drink and party and live 20 years. Stupid in my eyes but to each his own.

My wife has been sober for almost 6 months now. Her birthday is 1.1.06 as AA calls it.

Like I have said on this thread. I personally am not a big believer in the program. After two unsuccessful attempts at sobriety I did a lot of research on alcoholism and treatment programs. If my FWW believes in it and it works for her I will support her in what she does. I always have supported her when she needs me.

I have attended AlAnon meetings and I personally did not agree with the message. Again just because I don't believe in the message does not mean I will not support my wife.

I personally do not believe I am powerless. I personally do not believe any person is powerless. Again my belief and mine alone. I feel as though I would be a hypocrite if I went and agreed that my FWW was powerless because I personally don't agree with that. I will never tell my FWW that I am not a big believer in the program either. I act as though I think it is the best thing since sliced bread.

I have never even told her about my feelings of how much time she spends in meetings. If she thinks it is helping then I want her to keep going.

I am glad it is her program and hers alone and I can't help with it. This keeps me from feeling like a hypocrite.

As a matter of fact we have a very busy weekend because my youngest made the all stars and I was chosen as asst. coach. She called yesterday and she wants to go to a special meeting with her sponsor this weekend. I had two choices, Saturday which is really no good or Sunday which is impossible. She is going Saturday. Understand my frustration because this special meeting is going to make things more difficult on me. Now the program must come first so there you go. Again I will be fine with all of this if there is not a relapse. But based on statistics there is a very high probability of a relapse.

Please do not tell me about the program working for people that work the program.

I am glad it has worked for you. I hope it works for her and any one else that tries.