I don't think that our mess can ever be sorted out. My FWW doesn't want to work on our marriage and I am frustrated beyond belief. I don't think she can get to a point where she can be the partner that I'm going to need in order to get through all of the minefields and historical baggage.

She is doing everything she can to drive me away and then throws me a crumb or two in order to keep me interested.

I don't have any positive feelings for her and we're just less than 3 months past D-Day.

I've made the decision to file for divorce. I told her that she has 6 months until it's final if she really wants to give 100% to trying to work on our marriage. Right now, she's giving 1/10 of 1 percent and love busting me like crazy. So, that more than cancels out what minute efforts she is putting out right now.

I don't see any hope that she will be ready in the next 6 years, much less 6 months, so I need to prepare to move on.

There are no minor children, no feelings to hold onto, some property to split up, a house to sell, some debts to divide. I just don't see any reason to try to fix something that's never going to make me happy in the future. That's just my feeling right now.

Sure, I could make myself happy, but why try to work it out with someone who is 1) not willing; and 2) rubs your face in crap every chance she gets; and 3) shows absolutely no concern for my feelings and 4) NO REMORSE FOR HER ACTIONS.

Not much to reply to, is there?

I asked her if she let him do full oral including climax. She didn't deny it. She hasn't done that with me in 30 years.

I asked her if she let him do anal. She didn't deny it. She has NEVER let me do that with her.

I asked her if she had sex more than once in a day with him. She said yes. I said twice? She said she lost count.

I can't deal with these things. I guess it's a testimony for not getting details, but I had to know.

Ugh. I'm destroyed.

Do what you feel you have to do but even with a divorce filing KEEP TRYING. Not for her but for you. So that when all is said and done you can firmly state you gave it your all until the bitter end.

Divorce does not necessarily equal happiness. There will be desparate, lonely days ahead without your wife. I pray you have no regrets then based upon your efforts or lack thereof. I am not judging your efforts...only you can and will do that one day. Do YOURSELF proud.

Good luck,

Mr. Wondering

p.s. - I've been where you are. I thought my marriage was over too. I was determined to wait, keep Plan A'ing and consider things until the end of August, 2005 at which time I was going to move to my parents house with my 5 year old daughter and undertake getting divorced. The "affair" ended shortly thereafter in June, 2005 and recovery quickly commenced. "Giving up" enabled me to become a much more effective Plan A'er. If your convinced it's over, what have you got to lose at least trying to enjoy the summer and filing for divorce in say August or September. What she says or does will no longer have any effect on you. It's all fogspeak anyway. It's just not that hard anymore.

p.p.s. - It's your life...I/we certainly respect whatever decision you make.

Thanks, MrWondering.

I have done everything I can think of so far. I'm just tired of hearing "I can't give you an answer right now" when it comes to working on our marriage.

I can walk away knowing that I thought I did enough for HER to make an effort, but she's not. Plus, there's WAY too much baggage to unload at this point.

I suppose the only thing I'm guilty of is not having enough patience.

As far as I know, the affair is at least in remission although she could contact him again at any time. And, if he were to call her now, I'm pretty certain she would go to be with him. All they did was sex, though. That's it.

She tells me she doesn't love him and that she was probably just using him and vice-versa, I'm sure.

MW, I WILL consider your advice.

Thanks again.

Based upon what you posted above, I'd say it is far to emotional a day to make such a dramatic decision. I am not saying change your mind. Just give it a few weeks before you decide to do anything regarding divorce. Think it's done, feel it's done, give up, whatever; but, just hold off on the attorney's for a few weeks.

Emotional decisions are much more likely to be erroneous than a well thought out, rational, non-emotional decision.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- I, too, suffered through the indignation of hearing all the gory details of my wife's sexual escapades with OM. It hurt dramatically last spring. Now, I could care less. Our marriage is better or sex is better and I've completely disconnected my loving wife from the wayward wife she was back then. Your wife did what she did to feed her addiction, she didn't do it for OM. It wasn't real.

p.p.s. - you say she isn't trying, but perhaps giving you the ugly truth is a start. In her mind the truth may have been a huge roadblock to even trying cause she knew (or believed) you'd never get by or over the truth so why bother. I say, get all the truth including the details and see where you are after that. Despite it's ugliness, it is a restoration of intimacy and she can't change what happened. Of course, if she's merely being vindictive and hateful to get you to "give up"...that's another story.

Hey Reborn,

I think a lot of BS know how you feel. The only thing I would caution is don't make drastic decision when you're emotionall charged which is where you're at right now. Divorce ONLY if you are 100%, without a doubt DO NOT feel any regrets. BUT, from your other post, you also indicated the only regret you have is that you don't have the PATIENCE.

Consider this experience of your WW's A an "opportunity" to learn one of life's lessons. Yes, even the less than patient individuals like you and I must learn to endure.

Allow me to share my story briefly. My FWS had a 2 yr A w/a previous co-worker. D-day was 2/1/06. Kicked him out that night but NOT w/o exposing the A to his married buddy whom I called that night to let him know that H would be spending the night w/them. Did this to reduce the probability of H running off to OW who lives an hour away. It worked, athough WH vacilated b/w 2 women.

Meanwhile that night, I found H's email password. Read their emails to each other for the next month and every emails she sent him over the course of their A, and it hurt like he11! Didn't tell anyone and didn't know what I was going to do w/them. OW's emails screamed of desperation, fatal attraction personality towards and against me.

Kicked in plan A 2/14. Felt used and degraded most of the time. I put a stop to it.

Implemented plan B on 3/19 and re-exposed A to OW and H's email contacts, family. This time I included OW's deranged emails to H describing her contempt and hatred towards me and titled the email "Just in Case". Like a tsunami, it sent shockwaves. As expected, OW ran to H crying and upset. H blasted me and I blasted him back with, "If your mistress is going to throw a puch in my direction, she better damn well expect I'll punch her back! And when I do, she can't come crying to you, put on her f****** damsel in distress act and expect you to fight her battles for her against me! If it's her you want so you can play Daddy to her two dysfunctional kids which one is a runaway, there's the f****** door! GO! Get the f*** out of here and go play your f***ed fantasy! Stunned, H was speechless.

Two weeks later, I asked for a D. The next day, he called and asked/pleaded if I would reconsider and go to MC. On Easter Sunday, he emailed OW a NC letter, CC to me. He moved back home four days later. That week he booked us a cruise to Mexico and we sailed the following week.

My point in telling you my story is that unless you have implemented both plan A & B, it may still be too early to file for D.

I'll share with you what our MC said when we discussed issues of me wanting to know specific details about the A. I need to "DECIDE" for myself if the details of the A will be PRODUCTIVE to rebuilding the M. This is a powerful statement. Think about it. We the BS have the tendency to WANT to know as a way of comparing ourselves w/the OP. The question is "WHAT PURPOSE DOES IT SERVE THE MARRIAGE?" None doesn't?

What it does is it just resurface all the negative emotions: anger, resentment and hatred. So ONCE you decide that your wanting to know details WILL NOT serve the marriage any positive meaning, make the choice to NOT ASK. The less you know, the better off you are.

Have you two sought MC? If you haven't, might be helpful.

Good luck.

"The question is "WHAT PURPOSE DOES IT SERVE THE MARRIAGE?" None doesn't?"

" The less you know, the better off you are"

I disagree with both of these statements as does the premise of this website and many others. Radical honesty is necessary.
There is a statistic that says the survival rate of a marriage after an affair is related to the amount the A has been PRODUCTIVELY discussed and reveled(sp)
86% survive if the affair has been throughly discussed and examined.
51% survive if it is swept under the rug and never discussed.

A quote from another expert. "Anxious questioning and obsessive searching for clues of continued infidelity are usually a part of rebuilding trust. A survey of over 1800 hurt spouses has shown that when the unfaithful spouse answers all the hurt spouse's questions about the extramarital involvement, the rates of staying together and of healing are twice as high (Vaughan, 1999). But the hurt partner must be able to keep in check the feelings that these revelations bring up or the unfaithful partner will stop sharing. As Glass (1998) has written:"

So IMHO it is very important and it does good.

I would recommend staying away from the gory details. It hurts like he11 to find out your FWW did things for him she refused you before and after. Mine did the same thing.

Again my Opinion only but every person has a line that if someone crosses it may be over for them. One of the things your FWW did may very well be that line for you. It is better to know that sooner then later. What if you thought to yourself that there was no way she did that with him but if she did I would never get over it. Then you find out she did it.

Now maybe what you think today is crossing the line you may actually be able to get past.

Let the details settle in. Then make a decesion. I read in one response what my mom kinda told me. She said I had to stay as long as I was not 100% sure this could work. Not for a day or a week but for a good amount of time. If 99% of the time I was 100% sure then I stay. If it is 100% of the time I am sure 100% then I can leave and have no regrets.

Now I have two kids so I have to try my hardest because it is not just my happiness at stake.

I agree Years.

My wife has been exhaustingly open about all the details. The only mistake she made was at first the details were a little flowered up with what she believed at the time were in fact REAL feelings about OM. I have seen my wife advise very clearly on the boards that the FWW/FWS should tell it all but be careful not to overly "dress" it up.

Hearing that she liked something is not as bad as a descriptive explanation of just how good it felt. It's still the complete truth just absent some adjectives.

My feeling now is that over time the WS releases any and all fond memories of the sex and OM. They come to understand they were merely 2 empty souls rutting around like pigs. The actual physical acts become tortuous memories.

Getting the specific details further into the recovery process sometimes behooves the BS. Patience helps. But as Years said, you must get the details eventually and in due time for an effective recovery.

Mr. Wondering

Thanks for the responses.

I think I did and am doing a Plan A for myself. I've made a lot of changes in my daily routines, got my depression under control, I'm seeing an IC, etc.

We were seeing a MC, but the MC fired us because the FWW lied to her.

We are now talking indiviually to Steve Harley.

Plan A was interrupted by some LB's that I did (Angry Outbursts, DJ's) but I hope she got the picture that I was serious about working on myself and the marriage. Of course, she's far from sold on it at this point.

We are separated right now, so I can do Plan B and Plan D (perhaps) at the same time although it takes 6 months for the D to become final (at a minimum) assuming it's uncontested.

I HAVE told her that I can forgive her, but I really NEED the openness and honesty and trust that she would show by giving me all of the details. That is why I ask. I realize that things can happen in a fantasy world that wouldn't be acceptable to the same person in real life. I can accept her actions from that perspective.

That doesn't mean that it doesn't hurt like a mutha.

I am talking to Steve again tomorrow to follow up with him on my FWW's first session. Perhaps he can shed more light and a new vision for me.

Thanks again.

Everyone's thought process is different. How you decide to feel/process as speciic details enter your mind is up to each individual. By Reborn's acct, my impression was that it irked him. Again, each individual's perception and impression by what we read differs.

My H & I mentioned to our MC regarding MB's "Radical Honesty" which we do "adopt" in rebuilding our M. The MC made a very interesting analogy which is, what we read or gather from "experts" is like a "menu" to which we choose from. In other words, "Radical Honesty", in this case, "specific details" of the A (i.e. sexual position) will not serve the marriage anymore positive than NOT knowing. Personally, I choose to not torture myself just by my wanting to know the "truth". Bottom line, the A HAPPENED! What goes on in an A? Well, we already know.

Let me just give you an example. Over the weekend, I asked my FWH what the OW gave him for X-mas and b-day. He got a gold pig as a symbol of good luck/fortune in her culture. Now, I wish I hadn't asked because one of our neighbors have three pot belly pigs! So at that point, I chose to not ask anymore questions if I know it will illicit negative feelings.

Have you heard of the saying: "Be careful what you ask for because you might get more than what you bargained for?" There is a lot of truth to that. On the other hand, there are people who THIRST for details because they "feel" they have to. I'm one of those who DON'T feel they have to and I'm okay with moving on. Again, like I said, everyone is different.

Bottom line, you have to decide for yourself whether or not what you will ask may NOT be the answer you want. And EXPECT that it may not be the answer you want to hear. In an A where there is sex involved (as is always the case), YOU need to decide which is the lesser of the two evil. The knowing? or NOT knowing?

Stargazelily

Again it was my humble opinion on the matter.

I think it is certainly different for men the women.
I think each case is different as well. I have never asked about the details of the PA just how many times and what type. That was my boundry.

I think the details are like a movie that will replay in your head. The scarrier the movie the more sleepless nights you will have worrying about the boogie man.

In addition to that each MC has their own philosophy and if the one you are working with works for you that is wonderful.

You have decided to know the details that you can live with and still recover. Some people cannot move forward until they know everything. Again remembering the scarrier the movie.

I again also believe IMHO that a WW can certainly cross a line that will make you decide not to want to be with them.

Your FWS seems to be very lucky that you do not want the details. I did want to know what, when, why, where and how. Mostly because of the timing of her A. Now you and your FWS are practicing radical honesty that you find acceptable. Others want more.

Oh beleive me, I DO want to know the details. BUT I chose not to want to know. I decided that it does not serve me or the marriage any purpose IF our purpose is to get passed the gory part of the A.


Here's another food for thought for those of you who "FEEL" you have to know all the details. The time and energy you spend in "rehashing" the ugly, scary part of the A "movie" is time and energy wasted from doing something more productive and nurturing for your M. Think about it. What sort of nurturing does one get from knowing the gory details of an A? If anything, it hampers/delay the recovery process because like you said it's like the scary part of a movie that replays in your head. I don't know about some of you, but times when I watched scary movie, I had nightmares!

Furthermore, gory details of an A only ADDS to an already possibly long list of trigger episodes that can lengthen the recovery process. All you have to do is look at many of the posts who are still struggling with trigger moments a year or so after D-day.

It's understandable to WANT to KNOW. BUT, one needs to decide whether or NOT gory details of an A WILL nurture the M which is, after all, the main reason why couples CHOOSE to stay together.

Consider this as well that each time a BS "FEELS" they "NEED TO KNOW" more details, it can potentially be two step back from recovery because now, you have to take the time, however long it takes the BS to process it to a comfortable mental state. AND however it is processed, the BS may overanalyze or over process the "bad scene" and before you know it raises more questions. Then it leads to another series of WANT/NEED TO KNOW DETAILS. Heck, the two of you could be sipping a pitcher of Margarita on your deck watching the sunset instead!

BOTTOM LINE: Make a choice if the WANT/NEED TO KNOW will nurture your MARRIAGE.

Well, SG I think you have some heavy does of denial going on here. That is ok for now, and I certainly understand your reasons for thinking this way now....given your WH's about face major turnaround and your desire to "get past the goy affair"....BUT, reading for almost 2 years here leads me to conclude that you will have completely different feelings on this in a few months. Just my opinion. To each their own.

Goodluck

Lem

That would be an obvious impression by some. It comes down to a matter of "CHOICE" as is anything else in life. Do I dwell and over analyze gory details of his A? NO! Do I have trigger moments? Absolutely! But do I dwell on those trigger moments? NO! Again, it comes down to "CHOICE".

Allow me to share with you the same story I shared with posters "Torn betweteen hate and love" and "FWW Still in Fog After A Year" on Recovery, both who, a year after D-day still struggle w/trigger moments. I described to our MC last week that I could be driving on the freeway or do nothing at and think about my H having sex w/the OW. These trigger moment cause me to hate and despise my H, and I cringe at the sight of him that I instantly have to snap myself out of it.

Our MC re-enforced it in ONE WORD - "CHOICE". I have the choice to allow THOUGHTS of the OW or the A intrude and AFFECT me. This process has NOTHING to do with "denial". It's a process. Call it technique if you want. But it comes down to 2 choices:

1) I can CHOOSE to allow thoughts of the OW or A affect me and dwell on it OR
2) I can CHOOSE to NOT allow them and LEARN from it.

Choice #1 certainly does NOT bring out warm and fuzzy feelings towards our WS does it?

And yes everyone is different. How each individual process info can untimately determine whether or not they can get passed the anger, hurt and resentment to point that they have learned from it.

Life is a lesson. The A happened! And there's not a whole lot I can do to change it. But it can serve as a CHOICE to allow the A to serve as an opportunity, a life lesson for the BS and WS. You can CHOOSE to learn whatever lesson there is to learn from the affair. If you choose to NOT learn from it, you will eventually learn the same lesson from someone else.

So we come back full circle with the same predicament: CHOICE. Will your choice to allow thoughts of OP/A (gory details/trigger moments, want/need to know gory details) NURTURE the marriage or will it drive you farther apart?