Would anyone out there be willing to share some concrete actions they have taken to reassure BS's that recovery is as important to them as it is to their BS? or BS's ...what are some actions your FWW/FWH's have take to help you feel more secure? My H. and I are 8 months from D-day. I am not doing a good enough job at "pulling my weight" in the recovery process. He feels as if he is doing all of the work. I have so far...
1. had zero contact with OM
2. ordered and read- Surviving an Affair, His Needs, Her Needs, How Can I Forgive You?" and Not Just Friends"
3. call h. often and keep in contact 24-7
4. opened all e-mail accounts, cell phone records etc.
5. we are in marriage counseling with a good counselor

I believe that the problem lies in my day to day interactions. I was hoping some of you may have some advice on actions you have taken in your lives to help this kind of of situation...

Thanks!

I'm a BS, not a FWW, but our recovery seems to be suffering from the same problems as yours - I also believe at times that my FWW is "not doing enough". She's certainly doing less than you - there was frequent contact with me for a few months after D-Day but a lot less now, and we have not done any MC'ing, though that's more because of our situation rather than by choice.

Question: You say that your H feels that you're not doing a good enough job. Have you asked him for specifics? Could be that you're feeding him hamburgers when what he really wants is water <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.

Here are some of the reasons why I get the feeling at times that my FWW is "not doing enough".

1. On the top of the list - she rarely initiates any talk about our M and how she currently feels about us. But she talks about anything else that catches her interest. This leads me to believe at times that she's not really interested in R'ing our M.

2. I feel that she imposes limits on our intimacy that she did not impose on the OM. You can imagine what this does to my self-esteem.

3. I feel that she doesn't do empathy or compassion, at least not very well. When I'm feeling hurt, I find it difficult to turn to her for comfort.

4. I feel like she expects me to behave like I've recovered already, then gets frustrated when she finds out that's not the case.

5. While I believe that she's being as honest as possible, she's not very good at doing the whole "openness" thing.

M In M,

You took the words out of my mouth when you made that list.

First there was fog talk for so long and then she decided to finally be honest with me and right away wants me to get over it. Now she wants me to recover at her pace.

FWW told me a few times since last d-day that she would be open and willing to talk about A's when I need to, then when I do, she gets all upset starts crying "I can't do this anymore".

I too feel she's not doing enough but it's kinda funny I hung in there through the worst times of my life, through her fog and everything that comes with that and finally she comes out of it and starts being honest with me but how soon they give up when the BS can't get over it and move on the next day.

2M, if you're just now getting SAA eight months after DDay, you're WAY behind the curve on recovery. You've done some things, but there are others that need doing.

You really, really need to read the last half of Dr. Harley's book, Surviving An Affair. Also, here's a link to a thread about what the wayward spouse and betrayed spouse need to do.

What The WS/BS Must Do To Reconcile

I hope that helps. Please study SAA and apply the techniques Dr. Harley recommends for recovery.

2M,

What can you do? Keep posting. My wife and I post here, TOGETHER. We reach out to others and in doing so TOGETHER we have discussed and discovered far more about ourselves, about infidelity and our marriage than otherwise would have been possible. Our recreational companionship has, in all essence, been marriage builders.

Being HERE posting is a definite action you can take to help your marriage. It would be better if your husband came here with you but nevertheless YOU getting to the bottom of the "why" you did what you did will be most helpful.

My theory. It's very hard to be the BS in the beginning, however, in the end, the WS has a much tougher introspecive journey.

Mr. Wondering

Melancholy:

I am a BS. I will try to give you some of the actions that my FWW did or didn't do from my perspective and tell you how that helped and/or hindered the process.

First of all, let me say that based on what actions you have already taken from your post, you are miles ahead of many FWW's. I am not sure where you are in your sitch but all of the steps that you listed are absolutely essential for the recovery process to start.

I will tell you that your BH is no different than most of us. I think that many H react much differently to the discovery of infidelity than W's in the exact same situation. I feel so strongly that there are very unique differences between how a man and a woman handles infidelity that I am currently in the process of writing a book specifically for a BH and while incorporating all of the MB and other successful techniques that are gender neutral, also put some perspective from a man's point of view and how that might be different from a woman in the same sitch.

You have made the first step in starting to open up your relationship and being transparent by opening access to your email accounts, telephone records, constant contact, etc. Again, I am writing from a man's perspective but I think that one thing that is underestimated in this process is just how much the self esteem of the BH is affected, even if they don't realize it. It really doesn't matter what the gender of the betrayed is, finding out that your spouse did what many of us believed was impossible is probably the most devastating event in their life. I have described it before as a crotch kick without being braced.

Where I think that many man deal much differently than women is how they handle this at D-Day and then afterward. Most women immediately show their anger and rage when informed. Many men, including myself showed much grief but little anger at D-Day. In many ways, finding out was actually somewhat of a relief as it made many things make sense that had never made sense to me before. The hurt is obviously there but the anger and the intense insecurity did not come for me until many weeks after D-Day. I suspect that your H has already changed many things about himself and certainly is more aware of what your emotional needs were and how to meet them. I think that most BS, regardless of gender will tell you that they percieve that they are carrying the lions share of the workload early on. I believe that this is probably true as regardless of how that the discovery and admission of the affair occurred the relief of the weight that you were bearing from the lies, deception and secrecy has now landed squarely on the shoulders of your H. Be cognizant of his insecurities during this time. If he has any imagination at all, he will be visuallizing pretty vile things and all the pieces of the puzzle that he doesn't have yet, he will try to piece together. At the same time, he has made the decision that he wants to try and work through this and now is going through all kinds of thoughts about his personal failures in the marriage and why he didn't find out before now and how he could have stopped it. This is pretty normal for all BS's but especially for men. We are conditioned to think that as the head of the family we are responsible for every thing that happens to our family. Consequently, most men want to think that their W having an A was really their fault. It is very important that you constantly remind him that although he was equally responsible for the state of the marriage that created an environment where an affair could occur, he bears no responsibility for your poor choices in getting your needs met outside that marriage.

This is where I believe the two most important MB principles come into play full swing. The first is undivided attention. It is pretty normal for a WW to become detached from the spouse during the early part of the recovery process. I a lot of this is because at this point they are really understanding just how terrible a think that they did and are struggling with their own self esteem and guilt issues. Although these struggles have really little to do with the BS, the BS especially if they are the man i.e. head of the household, immediately percieve that they did something wrong and that you are thinking about him (OM) or wishing they were different or whatever. My FWW has often told me that what I percieve is far worse than what our reality is but it is what I percieve and those perceptions drive my mood, self esteem, etc. The best prescription for this is to force yourself to give your partnership undivided attention for at least fifteen hours per week and always some everyday. Reassure him that you are there for him and that even though neither of you can believe what has happened that if you both work together, you can indeed have a relationship that is far better than you ever imagined prior to the A.

The second principle that is a must is absolute, spill your guts, drag me down the street radical honesty. There should be no secrets in a marriage. It will take some time to really get this to the level it should be but when you think of OM, you need to share that with him. When you are disgusted with BS or even yourself about the little quirks that we all have, spill your guts. Don't do it as a disrespectful judgement, but hold nothing back. As an example...Honey, I really need to tell you something that just has always bothered me...that little fungus you have growing under your toenail just turns me off...maybe you should wear socks to bed if you don't mind. You will be surprised that when you really have that type of radical honesty, it actually improves your marriage, not harms it...especially when we are all able to be really honest and tell our spouses what we are really thinking. We are all fallible, sexual beings. We have to start radical honesty with ourselves first but down the road you will be able to freely communicate when you have feelings toward someone else, even if that is just thinking that your neighbor is knockout gorgeous but his wife is a flat dog. (one caveat, be careful in this area too early in the recovery, you don't want him to percieve that you are looking at other guys) but at some point, when you really have RH in a R, your best defense is being able to tell your partner when you have fantasies about someone else or are attracted to someone else. This is a human problem, as SH says, we are all wired this way. But in a really odd way, as you progress in recovery being able to share that you think someone is attractive with your spouse but then them knowing that you are fully committed to them for life is actually a confidence booster.

This post is long enough but I think the main point is that to your H, his perception is everything right now. He has a pain eating away from inside that he probably doesn't know how to get rid of. He needs to know that you support him, understand as best you can his pain, and that you are willing to do whatever it takes to recover this marriage. At some point, you will most likely rewrite affair history and decide that the OM was a scumbag, low life. Remember about perception. Although this is on the surface what every BH really wants to hear, the subconscious message that is sent is that she chose a scumbag, low life before me so what does that make me.

One last thing, both of you need to be reminded that a successful recovery is measured in years, not days or months. In writing my book, I have interviewed many BH and they almost always say the same thing. After D-Day, my FWW just wanted to move forward and not focus on the past. It is important to remember that this wound is very fresh for the BH and although it may be painful for everyone to talk about and continue to bring up, it is a necessary part of the griefing process for the WW to be open and answer any questions that the BH wants to know and to understand that just when it seems like this nasty little event is ancient history, it will show back up in the forefront at some point. Don't try to sweep it under the rug. Focus on the steps forward in the process, not the steps backward but also understand that a successful recovery is like a bull stock market. If the high are continually higher and the lows are also higher, it is a healthy recovery or market. What goes up too fast, will come down just a fast or faster. Laws of nature and gravity apply to relationships as well.

NT

I've suggested that to my FWW, as I thought it was a good idea (in fact, are there any examples of MB couple-posters who aren't doing well? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />). Her response - she doesn't like the forums, is not too happy with me visiting them, and thinks most of you are bitter people that really can't help anyone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

I've mentioned that here might be a safe place to talk about M- and A-related things (she talks to no-one else about these issues), but I get the impression that she only wants to talk with people that share her point of view. I can't help but wonder just how enlightening that would be...

Couldn't agree with you more Mr. Wonderful(ing). Good to see you again on a common post. To Melancholy, Mr and Mrs W are an example of how that they have both used this site successfully not only to recover their marriage but also to help many others including me along the way. I continue to use the site as time allows in a similar way, to continue the healing process for me personnally but more so to hopefully share my perspective of all the things I did wrong and wish I could have changed. I wished my FWW would utlize it as well, but at least now we are to the point that she will come and read one of my posts if I ask her. If your H will use this site, I think he will find it a valuable resource. If not, understand that he is just not able to differeniate between his own pain and the pain of others on here and he doesn't want to risk opening the wound further. We are all different creatures.

NT

[quote
I've suggested that to my FWW, as I thought it was a good idea (in fact, are there any examples of MB couple-posters who aren't doing well? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />). Her response - she doesn't like the forums, is not too happy with me visiting them, and thinks most of you are bitter people that really can't help anyone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

I've mentioned that here might be a safe place to talk about M- and A-related things (she talks to no-one else about these issues), but I get the impression that she only wants to talk with people that share her point of view. I can't help but wonder just how enlightening that would be... [/quote]

M I M:

Heard that same thing before. I have finally been able to convince my wife that although there are certain triggers here sometimes for me and many bitter posters who may not be able to be helped, there are just as many or not more truly great people who are helping themselves and others and there is no reason for me to reinvent the wheel, might as well get a head start by anticipating what I might be feeling, thinking, etc. Besides, I used to frequent other types of sites that were far less beneficial for our marriage. Either by POJA or just plain exhaustion, my wife has conceded this issue (with reservations).

NT

2-M,
It sounds as though you've armed yourself with knowledge... stuck to NC... and made yourself as transparent as possible to help rebuild trust. All good.

But what do you do to make your husband feel special? To meet his EN's? Every day?

Here are a few things I did post d-day that I know my H appreciated:

--Made more time to talk with him each day (this was actually a joint effort).
--Made arrangements for some dates.
--Lots of hugs.
--Made a greater effort to cook delicious meals for him more often.
--Wrote a "Thanksgiving" letter to him telling him how thankful I am for him and all the work he had done to make our marriage better.
--Started leaving little notes for him in the shower using those soap crayons for children. Nothing mushy, just nice little notes saying 'good morning' or some funny or inspirational quote.
--Sometimes I have a nice, hot bath waiting for him when he gets home from work.

You know, just whatever I can think of to make him feel appreciated and cared for.

Hope that helps.

Come to think of it, I could use some new inspiration, so I look forward to reading more responses on this thread.

Hang in there 2-M.

--SC

Aside to NTT: You're writing a book?? What a shocker!! Lol. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

M M

Great list!!!!!

They all hit home number 2 specifically. I have been afraid to bring that up here because my FWW made me feel like I was crazy when it came to that.

I wonder if we are married to the same women because my FWW does the same thing.

Ok on to my two cents now.

This is a marathon and not a sprint. When I told my FWW that I didn't think she was doing enough she said like what. I said I told you I never wanted you to do .... again. You have done it about 30 times now. I told you not to do ..... again I can count about 20 fights about that. I told you when you see I am down it would be nice if you let me know you loved me. A little something even a card would be nice. How many cards have you gotten me? Four or five?

Point is that maybe you are doing the same thing. Has she told you something she really likes? Maybe flowers or something like that. If she has she may be waiting to see if you will do what she likes for her. I love starbucks if my wife saw I was down and went to starbucks and got me a gift card and said I know you like that so here. It would make me feel like she knew what I liked and cared enough to take the time to do that for me. I am not looking for her to move mountains here just turn over a few stones.

My FWW loves taking bath's. I have scrubbed the tub out. Drawn her a bath, lit candles and turned on spa music. Takes me about 20 minutes to get it all set up for her. Hey chicks dig that you might try that. All the while no pressure for SF just tell her how beutiful she is and how much you love her.

One time I even went to the store and got a bunch of fruit and some sparkling apple cider to feed her in the bath. Do not get cheeseburgers or burritos that stuff gets all in the water.

Isn't it a shocker though considering how much I hate to write and can never seem to make my posts long enough...LOL.
Are you gonna let me interview you sometime??

Good to CU SC (one of my favorite MB'ers).

M2:

I really respect SC perspective on things. I was relatively new to MB when she came along with a sitch that really challenged my thinking on FWW's. I am pretty sure that I bored her a few times and maybe even helped her once, but her obvious transition from WW to FWW to just a really good person who is trying to get better has been a tremendous boost to me in understanding what the WW goes through in this process.

She had some really good threads that you might check out a while back that covers some of the same issues. Maybe she can link here for you. I think the title was "I told, Now what..." She will remember.

I agree with her that hugs, messages and massages, and doing the unexpected little things are really things that help things along. The things that I have really enjoyed the most and that really showed the true committment that my wife had towards recovery were the ones that were a little out of character for her and totally unexpected. A little extra SF during the rougher times didn't hurt anything either...after all we are guys.

NT

neat idea!

1. Wrote NC letter to OM
2. All password, emails and forums are open to husband
3. Cell phone records, phone records are all open
4. Let him know where I will be, and am reachable at all times
5. Don't just accept it was just my needs not being met, challenged myself to find my flaw that allowed me to do such a thing.
6. Shared my findings with my husband and let him be part of the game play to changing myself.
7. Learned new ways to communicate and react to my husband as so not to push him away and leave me feeling neglected
8. Learned my husbands needs
9. Accepted my husband for WHO he is - whether he changes or not, and changed myself
10. Never have private lunches with men - even clients
11. Never privately email men without my husband being a part of it (eg - MB advice to someone)
12. No men are on my MSN messenger list.

Hmmm - I could go on and on

we reinvented the wheel in our relationship, and with who I am , how I react and my brand new coping skills for when life gets overwhelming - I dont do self destructive escaping behaviors anymore....

Wow nottoday, your post hit home. Thanks for writing it; I would like to read your book some day. When you find out things finally make sense; you get sad rather than mad; and it is a terrible blow to your self-esteem and confidence.

I've been waffling on whether I want honesty; sometimes falling into thinking that my situation is somehow different or "not as bad" but the more I read, the more I see "us" on these boards over and over.

SC...

question

how does your husband react to you making HIM feel special the way he needs it?

This was a big eye opener to me.

Instead of being mad at him when he worked late all week...I now say - thank you for working so hard for us to make sure we are covered. Can I warm you up some supper?

And instead of him retreating for the night like he did when I nagged or was mad...he curls up with me, picks up a few toys, brings me tea...reacts PLEASANTLY to me...

Reactions are a big part of recovery too...not just to make it better for the BS, but to change problems that might have contributed to the affair to begin with!

So does mine. I get the "you should not compare" speech. Well, I'm sorry - if I sense that the OM got treated to more access to her than I'm getting now, I can't help but compare.



At least you've gotten 4 or 5 LOL. I don't think I've gotten a single card from her, or anything thing like that from her in a while. She went out of her way to create cards (electronic and otherwise) for the OM. Oops - there I go, comparing again.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.



Perhaps. But at this point I think I've reached the point of giving up. I did try more in the beginning (made her two nice cards outlining the things I like and love about her, for example, got a few gifts (we rarely exchanged gifts before that)), and I make a conscious effort to fill her ENs (I don't succeed all the time), but I dunno - it's just frustrating at times. It's like living with someone who just wants to be friends with you, but you want more.

OH in the Ws eyes, I think that m2 is thinking that she is doing a lot. I know this is not answering th equestion, but is stepping before that. Have you let your BS how hard it is for you to do what you have already done? I hope he does. Fo rsome reason I feel sorry for the WS in that you are having to feel the awful pain of hurting someone more than you ever could. Now you are coming to the realization that you must do many things to #1 fix your Mistake and number 2 begin to make your marriage better than before. Some things that have helped me are:

#1- Accepting what you have done that hurt while in the affair and the fog- many hateful things were said during this time. And the ability to admit what you said and see the wrong in them (It looks like you have doen this already).

#2- Beginning to change things for your BS that they wanted before the A- Things that you were previously weiry of giving. Emotional needs that they have that you could meet.

#3-Avoid anything said that could be potentially a bad thought or would lead to thoughts of the A.

#4- Setting the goal that your time together is focused on each other and your enjoyment of life. This was hard knowing that I needed to stop focusing on the affair and look at us as people out to enjoy one another. It was hard looking at my H and not thinking about the A.

Lots of good thought above the one from maninmotion above hit hard with the thoughts 1, 3 and 5. I think that you are trying to do them. Kudos for you!!! I hope things get better soon. Another thought is as the BS, I felt like I was in my own fog for the first 5 months. Meaning I was unsure what I needed, how to addres my needs, how to deal with the pain, and many more things. Now that I have been moving along, I see and function more clearly. MAybe your H needs some time to see what he needs. Has he read any books? Will he read with you- that has really helped us. When I feel stuck i go back to the books. Thank longhorn for his advice too- it is always right on for me!!

BINGO! My FWW's reading SAA and NJF, but I feel she's still framing her A as being caused by unmet needs. I don't get the impression from her that she's looking any deeper than that. Perhaps it's easier for her to shift the blame onto an unmet need (which means she can blame someone else (ME) for not meeting that need), rather than accepting responsibility that's something in her character that allowed her to do something so horrible.



Still waiting on that one from my FWW. She says or does things that cause me to withdraw (latest being just this afternoon), then she gets miserable and starts to wonder why I don't understand....



I think she knows my needs. She just wants to meet them only on her terms though. So they end up not being met many times.



I'm not sure I want that. I'd prefer if she tells me what about me she can't accept, and let me take the decision on whether or not I want to change it.




I'm not convinced that my FWW is developing any "coping skills". I'm not sure that she knows how to. And me pointing out to her when she does something that's causing stress to myself or the children ends up being treated as an LB by her (Admiration is her top EN, according to her).

MIM the Maybe you are doing the same thing was not addressed to you. That part was for Mel.

Sorry for the confusion.

Maybe you can start a thread so we don't hijack this one about the comparing.

MIM,
You know, I am probably guilty of wishing we could just "be recovered" but cognitively I know that is impossible. Your wife may also do what I do sometimes...If things seem to be on an even kilter, I don't want to bring up the A. or the state of our marriage because I SO want everything to be okay.

I will start bringing it up when I am wanting to talk about it. It is strange to be responsible for so much pain. I might appear to H. sometimes as indifferent when really I am wanting to keep my hurt to myself. I don't want him to have to deal with my emotions.
Thanks for responding. It does help to hear someone else's take on the situation!

2mel