LA,
Thanks for coming back. I certainly needed some support and encouragement.
Just had a long chat with WW. Slightly emotional at times. There is no doubt love for me still there.

I had'nt accepted "Separation Day". WW separated us within the house and told everyone we are separated. I do not tell anyone.

We have talked a lot this evening...about trivial things...about the exposure and about us. We both agreed it is important and must continue. I must say, if it hadn't been for the "exposure" I am sure we wouldn't be talking quite in this way.
From what WW says, I don't think OM or WW have any intention of settling down together (but of course you never know!).
But until the Affair ceases there is no doubt we will remain separated. Then it is just a matter of how long I can take it.

I said how difficult it is for me and perhaps we should split up completely now. WW said she did not want this..wants to continue as we are. Said I am not going to beg you to do so, but do ask you. When we finished talking she asked me to give her a kiss....a genuine request.

I get that you didn't accept the fantasy of separation day...then do not refer to it as such...it was WW's separation attempt...call it what it is to you...helps ground you in reality.

And believe me, it is TOUGH to be in reality when you've had a partner who used to be in reality with you...and now isn't...looks very different...even, upside down.

Tell everyone you are not separated...and you did in the exposure letters...again, when you say "Slightly emotional at times", do you mean you or her?

Isn't it interesting how affair partners (APs) don't have plans? Settling down or otherwise? Proves the fantasy...no real plans...that allows reality to come in...

Or attempt to. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

See, there you go, validating you're separated...

"But until the Affair ceases there is no doubt we will remain separated."

What do you mean? I'm sorry--I'm not putting you down...I know I can really confuse and be easily confused...on the one hand, I hear this as invention on your WW's part...oh, we're separated living in our home together...and then I hear you agree that you're separated.

See, when my marriage had it's go-round, this was one of the basics my H and I lived by...if you didn't feel married, you weren't. When I moved him out of our bedroom (I did it while he was at work), I said we were separated...not sleeping together...still went on dates, talks, had marital blowouts...part of me living in a fantasy and him cooperating with said fantasy...I'm hoping you'll understand how important it is to say, "We're married. We're not separated." Simply. Respectfully. Truthfully.

Now...as to you "taking" it...maybe I can understand better what you are enduring if you will tell me which part...taking the A; the separated but married; the talks; Plan A or saving your marriage?

Your WW loves you...truly and deeply...she wants her fantasy and her reality...you're the reality part...

Did you expose to OM's family? Employees? Does he have an ex-wife? Children?

And I forgot to mention you are fully human, worried about the "competition"...he is no competition, Nagrom...he isn't real. He does not have anything you do not...physically, emotionally, mentally or spiritually...he is not real...please choose to understand and comprehend this...he is no more truly known by your WW as any acquaintance...he is made up in her head, bestowed with fantasy characteristics and traits...NOT REAL.

I swear to you...A's aren't relationships...they make each other up...why they collapse within two years...and faster, if they live together...because then fantasy can't last...reality walks in...with undesirable beliefs, thoughts and feelings...just like in your own marriage...

Only you have 27 years of being real; growing, with a daughter, sharing love and lessons...

Is that worth Plan A'ing for, Nagrom? Is that worth understanding she can't replace you? No AP can replace their spouse? You're unique...you're you. As you are...

Take this time to understand how you work...think, believe...what you feel...what is your chosen perspective...how you perceive...what you believe you need emotionally...if you want to hurt back for being hurt; if you want to make her stop doing/saying what she's saying...and why...and if you know she loves you, is there relief or more fury?

Do you have "How can she's??" running about your mind...or do you have insights into yourself...your choices and reactions...do you believe in stopping pain immediately...believe it comes in from the outside...same with love...

Do you know what staying present is...how much it means...how to communicate...if you want to make this an action belief in your system: Strive first to understand, then be understood.

These are the tools I used in Plan A...these are the beliefs I changed; different focus, solid goal...best choice I've made in my entire life.

Yours might be different.

LA

LA,
Thanks for your continuing comments and advice. I t certainly helps me.
A few answers:-
I have not accepted we are separated...it is only WW who is telling people.
"Slightly emotional"...both of us.But I am generally keeping very calm.

From what I have gathered from this site and the associated books, reconciliation is not practical..or possible...until the Affair is dead and ended?.

Yes, I do see ourselves as still married although WW has removed her ring and separated.

I "exposed" the Affair to all relatives and some close friends, from whom the message is being passed on. OM only has an ex partner, who left him recently because of another Affair of his during December / January.

I have 3 other children. one still at home. 20 year old daughter has been very supportive and we went shopping to drastically update my wardrobe!.

I am now sure from the chat last night that WW still loves me..which makes it all the more infuriating that she cannot detach from OM. There is a sort of relief but the future is still so uncertain.
But I am at present committed to trying to see Plan A through for at least 6 months.

Am wavering again!..WW will be off to quiz night at the Ship Inn and no doubt staying the night with OM. And again on Friday...and Sat...etc...

It is so unpleasant I am wondering whether to call it a day and say goodbye to WW. She really is taking the "proverbial".

If you are interested in recovering your M, your goal is to make it as uncomfortable as possible for her to continue the A. What can you do here to accomplish this?

I need a respite from the stress...even a temporary one.
Just got back from the horses, tired and hot. It was not long before 48 year old WW looking like a 20 year old came over to give me a kiss and hug before going off to the pub quiz night and a night of sex with OM.
I can accept and forgive all the times she has done it with OM over the past few months. But having it continuing like this is really getting to me!.
So I told her not to bother with the niceties as I was not sure if I loved her any more. It certainly is affecting my affection for her. So off she went with a shrug of the shoulders.
I just need a rest from it to think about it. What her reaction will be tomorrow I have yet to see.

We're with you, Nagrom...did you answer ManInMotion?

Stating, "You are married. You are choosing to continue your affair. This is killing my heart...you are going to your adulterer's and spending the night. You are an adulteress. I abhor your choices. I want you to end your affair and have a doctor examine you for STDs."

You didn't expose to OM's ex or establishment? Why not? Have you checked out civil laws on possible alienation of affection (you sue OM); grounds for divorce due to adultery...do you know your legal rights?

Plan A isn't about being a doormat...it is you being honest, inside and out...

Have you both talked to your daughter? She's old enough and I'm sure needs to know why her mother is choosing to wreck her marriage?

Again, you referenced separation...her idea of separation...she is making her adultery be okay...do not allow that. State she is married until she files for legal separation and leaves the house...until then, she is married...and not will be an adulteress until the divorce is final and not before. These are your beliefs. They are valid.

Emotional blackmail is saying, "I'm not sure I love you anymore." You are attempting to convey your anger, frustration, feeling attacked, discarded, an unwilling participant in her fantasy world...practice stating your truths...what you feel, think and believe. No name calling..."I believe you are on a fantasy drug and it is poison to our marriage and child."

I believe strongly in exposing at the pub...if you have a group of friends, friends of your marriage, could you go there tonight and state it publicly? "We're here to watch my wife be with her affair partner. We're not separated. We live together. We're married. I want to save my marriage."

How bold and courageous would you be then? My 14-year-old son said to a woman customer at my WH's work (where he was having the affair), "Yeah, my Dad was going to divorce us for this other chick, but we brought him flowers because now he isn't."

The other chick wasn't there...I believe my son would have pointed her out. He said it calmly, truthfully.

Living in truth is a choice. Who can you depend on to believe in your marriage, in both of you, to help you right now, in person?

You're worthy...valuable...and this is a hero's journey, trying to save your marriage...free yourself from conventions...unless you love them more than your family...free yourself from the lies...you've exposed to her family by letter...did you refrain from anyone who can influence her? She's not allowing your influence right now...which doesn't mean you do not take steps.

ManInMotion is right on...her choices have consequences...what can you do to make them as uncomfortable as possible?

Go to the pub...take friend(s)...be honest. Don't buy that man's ale, please!

Make a huge sign for your front lawn...which says, "My Wife is At Sky Inn Having an Affair with OM."

((((((((((((((Nagrom)))))))))))))

LA

I was going to suggest that, possibly with family in tow as well when he did it. I thought however that it would be best for Nagrom to REALLY examine his current situation and come up with his OWN plan to bust up the A. He knows his W and the situation better than any of us.

And to you Nagrom, I really wish you the best of luck.

You're right, MIM...I know I got carried away...I scrubbed the post twice before I allowed myself to suggest it. I know Nagrom knows best way...I wanted to encourage him...and I felt his pain too much...the indignation...and wanted to arm him with truth...

I didn't see where he'd seen your post...that was my excuse.

I'm sorry.

You can do this, Nagrom...MIM is a BH...he knows.

LA

Writing this in sections as lost the first attempt!!

Thanks for encouragement. I hope I do not seem to be ignoring too much advice...but I am absorbing it all.
I have exposed the Affair to as many as I want to at present...and have promised WW that I will write no further letters. The exposure is being relayed on from some to others. I can of course still speak to people about it.

I consider it will be too risky for me to expose at the pub...many there are aware of it anyway. I have not the friends locally to help and it could backfire and demoralise me further.

I was a bit low yesterday evening with WW off for the night with OM.
When we met up again this morning, WW asked me for a hug. I refused saying I did not want, love or need her (which I felt was near the truth anyway)... I also said I could forgive her adultery so far but that the blatant ongoing adultery is disgusting and repulsive and very difficult for me to take. And I would like to sell the house next Spring 2007.

A bit later WW came over to me in tears and hugged and hugged me for a long time.

......She was open in that she knew she was being selfish in wanting the security of our home and my support...but also we may get back together in time....so don't sell the house.
But she is obviously addicted to OM...but plays it down...almost to be of little signifance...she said she had had (unspecified) negative feelings in our marriage for some time.
I do not seem to have yet any way of stopping the Affair and hope it dies a natural death in time.

WW does not rule out a reconciliation and agrees our marriage could be strengthened by all this. At present, thoughts of sex with me are out of the question....will this aspect ever return?.

Neither WW nor OM have plans or committment. She has no thoughts of moving in with him, even if he wanted her to.
But it is certainly an addiction...she is with him 2 ot 3 nights a week.
And I feel she still loves and cares for me ...but without the desire.

So, we are back to discussing our relationship...and lots of small talk...and had lunch together at the cafe.
We plan to recontinue on these lines day by day.

Elder daughter took me to town yesterday and we bought me loads of much needed "cool" clothes.

So I am still in PLAN A. And will try and keep it going like this for at least 6 months....with no chance yet of preventing the Affair.

I would add that I do become confused sometimes when talking about the Affair and our relationship with WW!.
I thought I had understood it all perfectly and as all set out in my exposure letters. And WW did not argue with the basic content of those letters.

But WW tends to "play down" the Affair...almost as an innocent friendship...apart from the adultery... And tends to refer to unhappiness in the last year or so of our marriage.
And she sounds so convincing!.
Makes me wonder why she has sidelined and separated me so completely from her life...especially the intimate side!!

My opinion: I think, given the current situation, that doing a Plan A for 6 months is simply going to expose you to the affects of her A for six months. Are you up to that torture?

I get the impression that you've already been Plan A'ing her for some time now.

Right now, as her A is out in the open and she still insists on pursuing it right in front of you - a horrible situation to be in. I think that once it becomes clear that exposure has not helped to bust up the A, you might want to consider progressing to Plan B as early as possible, before you lose your love for her.

Hi, Nagrom...

Kudos for stating your thoughts and feelings to her this morning...

I can only say, don't jump into the future...about sleeping with your wife again or not...you won't know until you get there. Make it a boundary that you do not have sex with her until she gets a full STD panel...the A is her choice...not worth your life, 'k?

I hope MIM, MelodyLane, Pepperband or others will chime in to help you with your situation...mine was different. When I discovered the A wasn't ended, I demanded WH leave the house immediately...and he was gone within 24 hours.

He repeatedly said, "I have nowhere to go" and I said, "Move out."

I only have that experience from the betrayed side...and it was an automatic, unstoppable reaction...

From the wayward side, I wouldn't move out and I begged BH not to move out...and he didn't...and I continued to see OM, though not overnight, still blatant emotionally...and it burned out in a few months...still wrecked everything.

Probably why I posted as I did...to expose strongly, wake her up...because I am having a bit of wishfulness that my BH had done that for me...I couldn't have stood it...then again, maybe I could have...the fog is real and thick and stunning.

When your WW said there were problems before the A, are you listening and repeating?

"I hear you saying you had isses in our marriage before you chose to have an affair, is that correct?"

You hand back her words respectfully, with choice, respecting her thoughts, feelings and beliefs as hers, not yours...calm as you are...because you are staying present, listening and repeating...

Recovery is the time to work on the issues she saw...they can be guideposts for your Plan A, a bit, but remember the fog...justification, rationalization...feeding her entitlement, resentment and lack of respect. Don't feed her more yourself, 'k?

You didn't mention 12-year-old knowing or not knowing...I would like to know.

LA

This is standard fogspeak. My FWW took almost the same approach to her A, at first suggesting that they "just went a little to far", and it had nothing to do with the state of our M, even though her A had been ongoing for 2 years.

Don't pay attention to the babble, unless you plan to use reverse-babble on her (to find out about this, look up Orchid and reverse-babbling using the forum's search feature).



Of course she will do this. She has to justify her A. If she doesn't, she knows she'll have to face the truth - she's involved herself in something despicable and disgusting.

Am grateful to you...LA and MIM...for following this with comments and advice.
I regard Plan A as starting fromthe time of exposure...a few days ago....so may carry on with Plan A till say Christmas.
As I said earlier, I have already found it a great mental strain carrying out Plan A with the aldultery ongoing.
Becoming mentally and slightly physically closser to WW this morning...at her request...helped me gather my strength and know that I still love her very much.

...contd...
I hope, if we can stay (comparitively) close and communicate like this I may pull through....and last the 6 months.
But, as you say, it is horrible. And its so out of character for her...a kind, thoughtful and loving person!. But she is aware of the pain I am suffering.

I do feel I should pursue Plan A as long as possible. Perhaps the Affair will "die out" within the 6 months?...especially as OM is a known philanderer.

I will now have to give the possibility of bringing Plan B forward serious thought.

I don't think there were serious problems in our marriage before the Affair. I have asked, but nothing specific mentioned.....will ask again.

My 12 year old daughter knows only of the "separation".

Just a thought.... about my WW's ongoing adultery. When you think about it it is outrageous that someone in a marriage ...even if they regard themselves as "separated"..though only in their own mind...should blatantly, and with their spouse's knowledge, stay out regularly all night to have sex with their lover! And knowing the spouse does not approve and that it is hurting that person.

And at the same time they have completely refused sex with their spouse.

A few months ago, if my WW had known a friend was doing this sort of thing, she would have been appalled.

I have sort of accepted it happening, though totally against it, as the whole Affair saga seems so unreal.

Is this what a lot of BS's have to face?.