LA,
Thanks
But a lot to absorb..read and reread.
My initial reaction is that you do not think reconciliation of the marriage seems likely.
Will say no more for the moment but will take away and read, and consider, carefully!.

Thank you for your consideration and time, Nagrom.

LA

LA,
Thanks for your time and continuing interest in my case.
Your posting made me a little depressed due to your opinion that the last year or so of our marriage must have been much worse than I had thought.
WW has several times referred to some "emptiness" which she could not explain...but blames it probably on the 5 bad years with DD21. They were BAD, for both of us!.
OM probably became aware of this through conversation and took advantage of her vulnerability.

Anywa, this might meam a reconciliation may be even more difficult to achieve?.

Re the conflict between DD12 and WW ..in my defense, I did not ask or demand a "backing off" but put it as a suggestion.

And I am sure I am not trying to control, or influence WW at all. I am trying to make the best and most of our time together to show I am someone she can enjoy being with. And we do some things together.

If you can see manipulation...it is unintentional...so any guidance and correction isa appreciated.
If she does show a willingness to return to the marriage one day...I will ensure that this is really what she wants...she must have a strong desire to do so.

I have read your posting carefully and without responding to each point...I understand and take seriously all you say.

I do not seem to be losing posts any more, but did a break just in case.

I find the SF question still difficult to answer. I am aware I had wandered off the point a little, previously.

SF is one of my needs, but which I would now rank further down the list.

I was usually concerned my WW enjoyed it as much as I...but selfishly , not always. I think we made love too often...or more than WW wanted or needed.
But she has said she did not always need satisfaction ...could just enjoy the closeness.

I don't think our marriage was that bad. As WW has said, the 5 bad years dealing with DD21 had a bad effect on her, from which she had not properly recovered. It had taken away her self esteem and confidence. I notice that she has appeared, in recent months, to have regained her self esteem and confidence.

Incidentally, I read in one of the books ("Not just Friends"?) that Affairs can happen even in good marriages!!

Nagrom...

No, I wasn't saying in reality that your marriage was that bad...at all..this is about what may have been in your WW's mind...how people get this way...able to do this...to justify it...not about the marriage...wayward state of mind.

I don't predict about reconciliation...it takes what it takes...I meant that in recovery...after NC, withdrawal, recommitment and the partnership beginning in earnest, I fear BS's have a whiplash reaction when getting there...feeling the resentment for what was wrecked, for having to have not been honest during Plan A...state and own their feelings...and instead played nice, friendly, lured and swallowed down their anger...as if their goal wasn't to change themselves, but to get their WS at all costs...seems they feel hollow and robbed at a certain point, when they do indeed save their marriage...and great shame that the BS had to do everything...

Which I found very similar to the wayward state of mind of the WS before the A's I can relate to began...

See the loop?

I don't believe in saving your marriage at any cost...doesn't make your marriage priceless, but cheap, I think...afterwards...and I'm not talking about self-respect or pride...I'm talking about how much we change ourselves to shine...for us...and not for the WS...though shining is shining and very attractive...

Does that make sense?

Yes, how your WW took the teen-aged years with your DD21 (I can really relate), along with her other choices and perceptions, could very much have put her in a wayward state of mind...not a bad marriage. I'm so sorry I did not convey that well enough, Nagrom.

When I urge you to be open and honest, I am not calling you a liar...when I say create and maintain boundaries...I'm not saying you are a doormat...I can't control what you hear and appreciate very much you giving me the feedback you do...what you hear matters.

In recent months, your WW has found a false confidence and false self-esteem....we cannot build these on the admiration of others...nor can it be taken away by a rebellious teen...though we can feel it can be...

Again...my purpose is to aid you in clarity, show you reality...because when you're dealing with a fogged WS, the fog can suck you in...because we easily mix up the dear W we remember with the present alien WW...very confusing...

I ask you to tell me what SF symbolizes to you...what does it represent emotionally in you...

ENs are emotional needs....Affection tells you what...Appreciation tells you what...Admiration tells you what...Acts of Service...Domestic Support...Family Commitment...I'm asking for the words behind the needs...

In example: To me, Recreational Companionship means acceptance, admiration, appreciation (for presence)...lots of stuff represented in RC...

Does that help explain what I'm asking?

About you...your ENs...not hers, NOTHING about her...'k?

Thank you for not taking my highlight of manipulation as a bash...I was a huge manipulator and did not see it as such...had no clue...it was generosity, kindness, care, consideration, doing what is best for someone else...my intent was to give others what they needed...and it wasn't respectful...it was manipulative...so I am highlighting these things from my perspective...doesn't make them true in your life...your choice...

Nagrom...I used to hear "I'm doing it wrong" when my H shared his feelings...I heard "I got him angry" when he said he WAS angry...being clear, knowing that we all have our human filters in how we perceive...that's essential to Plan A...to get to know yours...so that every miscomunication is not bad...it's full of stuff to know and see and accept and learn from...

I believe you are already open...and you are giving it as you hear it from me...

I believe this is part of practicing new beliefs...changing our lives...and to understand and be understood.

Now, what do you think?

LA

LA,
Had an excellent evening out with my children last night. One good thing about this Affair is it has brought me much closer to the children, and they are very supportive to me.

Have read through your message carefully...what you say makes me feel better.
I agree that reconciliation cannot be predicted. It may, or may not, happen....and could be a long way ahead anyway.
And apart of separation / NC from OM, WW would need to separate from OM's hostelry and the several friends she now has there?. Could be a tricky situation.

I understand and follow all you say....it makes sense.

Re:SF. I have looked again at SAA for help. I made love to my W because I love her and it was a way of expressing my love for her.
But I also have a sexual need which has probably meant I have made love to her in recent years more often than she wanted.
This was something I was trying to address when we "separated" and something that WW and I would need to discuss in the future. I did mention it to her the other day in conversation.
WW has suggested to me once or twice that my need could be due to insecurity.

WW has a "false confidence and false self esteem"...All part of her changed character and younger looks?.
I compliment her on her attractiveness and appearance now and again as I know she appreciates that.
The other day before she went out I told her she looked lovely. As she dissappeared she called back.."Thank you for telling me I look lovely"....obvious and genuine appreciation.
She regularly shows me new clothes, hair do's, nail extensions and colouring..etc...and appreciates complimentary remarks and interest.


Yes...I do think I do become confused and mixed up sometimes re W and alien WW.

So SF to you is an expression of your love...a demonstration...and you believe you have a physical, a separate need from an emotional one...

Good to know.

What I experienced was the less of a connection I felt with my H, the more sexual I became...same for him...the more rejected one another...well, SF was acceptance to both of us...that was what was behind the need...the more accepting we've become of ourselves and each other, the less SF required...more now as a conscious choice to express, as you said, our love, our feelings...and express our existing connection.

I believe that a PA is about the emotional need behind the SF...and acceptance plays a big role...mine was driven a lot by not accepting myself...so SF in an A is a false acceptance...doesn't feed that need and it doesn't last...I'm being fake...and being accepted for fake...calling it real.

I was after you to reveal what you think and feel because you were directly coming yourself, through age and attractiveness to OM. Please don't do that. That's a choice to harm yourself...when her reasons can be way off from your presumptions.

And what you felt SF was...this expression of love...would be what you thought they were doing, also...our brains are like that...though we reason it out differently...underneath, how we see things becomes what they are to us...real or not. How humans get wayward...same process.

That's my take...I think it's important...lemme know what you think.

LA

Hello again,

I have been away and just caught up with your posts. I do sincerely wish you the best but it really saddens me what you are going through. I just simply see no reason why your wife would change her dynamics of her continuing affair. She is allowed to receive some emotional support and compliments from you and is allowed to continue her sexual affair at least 3 nights a week with the OM.

Good grief she has the best of both worlds. It is true her children disapprove but she still has a loving husband being kind to her and maintaining her standard of living while she is enabled and allowed to engage in sexual activities in the evenings with her lover without consequences. I know this seems harsh but it is reality and it is about respect. She does not respect you and her marriage. She can give you all sorts of reasons why she is sad about hurting you but her behavior continues unabbetted.

You seem to have rose colored glasses on. When you tried to stand up to her she immediately (probably with help from her lover) contacted a lawyer and was willing to fight you tooth and nail. Maybe you should seriously ask yurself why do you wish to be with a person who has no problem continuing to disrespect and humiliate you and your marriage without consequences? It sounds that you are so desperate and co-dependent that you are willing to wait and wait for a wife to get finally tired of having sex with her lover or until her lover gets tired of having sex with her. Again I know this sounds harsh but you deserve much better and you have value as a good man and a good father; and yet you wish to continue to love a woman who devalues you as a man and a spouse. What is wrong with this picture? One last time my friend: If you do not respect yourself then who will?

Bryanp...Thank you for taking the trouble to try and help me. It really is appreciated and you are absolutely right with your comments.
And my true wife was a lovely person in all ways for 25 years......but as WW she has changed dramatically with this Affair.
I admit it does suit me to continue as we are fora while. I am determined to complete Plan A to a minimum of 6 months.

Apart from some loss of self respect I feel I have nothing much else to lose as I am certain that ...at the moment....if we sell up and split that will be the end of our relationship and marriage anyway.

My children are marvellous. Loyal and supportive to me and they are what is really important to me at the moment. I do need more time to plan for a future without WW as the financial problems could affect them adversely. It is important to me that DD12 keeps her pony and is able to pursue an equine career, and that Son18 continues his studies.

My WW is surely in cloud cuckoo land...foggy brained...and is not FULLY responsible for her actions anyway!?.

Bryanp...you refer to "reality " and "respect". But isn't it that WW's mind has been so disturbed and scarambled that she is not in reality.
It is all so out of character for W..THE WOMAN i LOVED FOR 27 YEARS.
I know the Adultery aspect is very unpleasant but it has been a sudden change and I am hanging on to my present course.

Incidentally, doesn't my saga have similarities to the Jon, Sue and Greg story in SAA?.

Hello again Nagrom,

I understand fully your need to get your financial house in order to make sure that there are no adverse effects on your children. It makes perfect sense to me.

I had a similar situation to you. My ex-wifes drinking and going dancing at night made an intolerable situation. It was actually my stepchildren age 19 and 17 who pleaded with me to divorce their mother because it was hurting them so much to see how I was being treated. I was forced to look at the reality of the situation as it currently was and not the way it was in the past. Reality is what it is today. I also did not like the fact that my stepchildren felt sorry for me. I felt I deserved better.

I simply could not change the dynamics of the situation and she immediately went to live with her boyfriend. The financial consequences were high (300 K to her after only 2 years of marriage but had been with her for 6 years).

Looking back I realized that I should have been much more proactive immediately. I believe your WW like mine was needed a shock to change the dynamics. It is like a person with an irregular heartbeat. You can hope the heartback will go back to normal by itself but it seldom does. What normally happens is to shock the heart to force it back to a regular heartbeat. I waited too long and she felt stronger and stronger toward the OM. I think your situation is somewhat similar.

Immediately after my divorce I was very sad but each day it got a little bit better because I started feeling better about myself and I no longer had people feeling sorry for me for what I was putting up with. I now have a better relationship with my stepchildren than my ex-wife does. I am fortunate that my line of work (college professor) allows me to meet up with a lot of interesting people. The bottom line is that my life is better and nobody perceives me as pathetic and masochistic for accepting such disrespect from a spouse. Again I understand the financial considerations and certainly support you in this regard. I wish you luck.

Bryanp,
Thanks for the few extra words. As you say, our situations do appear similar.
Though in my case I do not think my WW or the OM have any intention of living together, which makes the Affair seem all the more absurd.
I have been encouraging my WW to move in with him, with no success, really for her to realise what he really is like.
I do not wish to be conjecturing too much at present but take each day as it comes.
The outcome is uncertain.

Why would they want to? This is not about your wife wanting to have a closer relationship with the OM! Your wife is enjoying the best of both worlds now - she gets to go out and fool around every now and then, and return to her nice comfortable house whenever she wants to.

WAKE UP, MAN!

I think you and your WW are in a "meta-stable" position right now that is likely not going to change until something serious action is taken. That's typically referred to here as "Plan B".

Some things that are striking me..

1. I think there is the possibility that more is going on at that pub than just her A with the OM.

2. Are you sure that your passiveness in this situation is not being driven by a fear of being left alone?

3. If you were to tell your WW that the next time she leaves the house to go stay overnight at the OM's pub that you prefer she does not return at all and that you move into a separation agreement immediately, how do you think she would react?

I am awake and dealing with this in my own way at the moment. All comments and advice are appreciated.

I am not going to go on like this indefinitely...but trying to stay the course for some while yet.

I don't think there is more going on at the Pub. Had a chat with DD21, who knows what's going on generally, and she agrees.

I do not want be alone...but I am closely involved with 4 loving children. I am resigned to the liklihood that I will never be reconciled to my WW., and may have to accept that. My WW seems more and more addicted to him as the days go by. I feel the age differences...WW..48, OM..EARLY 40'S, and me 68 may be a problem in reconciliating. After all, I was 42 and very virile when I married WW.

I like the Separation Agreement idea, but only if she can get the OM to agree to take her in.

Why is it dependent on that? Let her find a place to stay - your boundary should be that you don't want her staying with you while the A is going on. Everything else is up to her.

Bumping to let you know you're thought of...prayed for...

and

'cuz I'm darn nosy. What's up? How are you?

LA

Thank you LA for getting in touch...and to all for comments and advice.
The situation is still as it was.
My WW is still cake eating. Seeing the OM 2 or 3 times a week plus much texting contact and living comfortably at home ...in her own room!. Its a large house which she keeps even more clean than usual..does the cooking and continual washing. I help to some extent..but she is now a highly paid housekeper!!
I do think her life generally WAS more interesting, relaxing and enjoyable than it is now...but that's her choice.
I am keeping fairly sane but do have "off days". The support of my children is marvellous and possibly necessary.

At the moment I am hoping the Affair may end in a few months.
But also prepared for complete separation.

I am glad I have not been forgotten and can therefore come back for advice which I am sure will be needed in due course.
Nagrom.

IMO you are dreaming in vivid technicolor. Why on earth should it end? She's getting everything she wants - a nice house to stay in, and a lover on the side to go by when she's in the mood.

Maybe one day he'll get tired of her and the A would end. My guess though is that she'll probably start one up with someone else. After all, she's already proven to herself that you're quite willing to put up with such behaviour from her.

You don't seem to realise that the more this goes on, the more detached she's getting from you. Hoping that she'll just return to your arms if the A ends is just wishful thinking, Nagrom.

MIM,
She is aware this cannot go on indefinitely. Its unpleasant, but it "suits" me for things to tick on like this for a while.
I do feel she may be getting more detached from me....as you suggest.
And when, if this affair ends she may well continue with someone else, instead of returning to the marriage.
I am prepared for which ever way it turns out.

MIM,
I know you mean well and are probably correct in your assessment of the situation. But, I have to remain hopeful and need encouragement in whatever approach I take.

Of course, she might have no intention now of returning to the marriage anyway.

Nagrom...

I could not have done what you're doing...I was cut to shreds inside with them working together...after I found out...the small taste I had of what you are choosing chokes me for you.

I think MIM has a really great point...if you're waiting out this affair, how many more will you choose to do this with? Now, you know I say, "Stay present" but this goes to dealing with her wayward state of mind...which doesn't end when the affair ends...hence my concern.

Why does it take so long to get a property assessment? And can you get an order of protection from your WW...for causing intentional emotional cruelty...because she won't move out to conduct her affair?

I'm serious, Nagrom...she has no consequences...that's what MIM is saying...to her choices...you're in the way of them...so is your stupid laws (I'm DJing here) because they won't make her move out...and I consider this cruel and unusual punishment...but I don't know if you have that there or not.

Why not set a precedent? Why not use all your sharp mental strengths and do something for all those other betrayed spouses who either have to move out and abandon their homes and children to protect their hearts (which I wouldn't have done, either), or live with blatant, cake-eating adulterers?

My heart hurts, literally, for you...I respect your choice to wait out the A...because it is your life, your way, your control over your own self...can you go to Plan B, while she's in the house?

I dunno. I'm looking for consequences...desperately...maybe lousy advice on my part...would you consider writing a Plan B letter laying out her choices...if she chooses to continue her A, then the three of you will have to protect your love for her by treating her as dead to their hearts...if you and your DD and DS stop seeing her, shut her out entirely...no communication...not looking at her...responding to her...do not set a place at the table, do not eat food she prepares, stay in the same room as she is in...mourn the loss of your dear wife and mother...in her presence...

And in the letter, show her the way back...to end all contact, get into MC, read SAA...whatever your conditions...which again, may include moving because of proximity to OM...then all of you will see her choices and know them for what they truly are...and your own. Empower your children...they matter. I understand you choosing for the A to run its course...your kids don't have a choice...you are choosing for them...is that a good choice?

LA