Yes. But "entice" may be a badly chosen word. It was her choice to end the other relationship and she had had serious doubts about that relationship. He was a very jealous person.
It was 27 years ago and she was not married to him.
I am sure I mentioned this matter in an earlier posting.

LA,
I hope you have not given up omn me1.. I still love WW/W and she knows she is still there for me.
Aout 4 weeks ago I heard rumours of the Affair ending. But then the Affair seemed to be getting more intense with WW spending MUCH more time with OM at the inn.
About 3 weeks ago was about to give her a hug while chatting at the cooking stove but she moved away and said that I should not do that as OM as a virus of some sort!.
Otherwise, the last hug I have had from WW was when I went off for my Horseball weekend on Fri 22Sept.
When I returned and saw WW again on Monday Morning of 25th Sept. she told me the Affair was over. So he had finally taken in the other woman who moved in with him. WW said a "mutual decision" to end the Affair...she said she did not want people to think he had dumped her!.
She said she and OM would still be friends and she would still visit his inn.
She said OM was a great help to her with advice and had given her back the confidence she had lost during the 5 BAD years with DD21.
She added..." I expect you have been hoping I would come back to you once the Affair was over?!"...She said it in such a way as to infer she wouldn't!. I replied not necessarily.
Later that morning she was dressed smartly and said she was off job hunting...."..in case we sell the house..". I agreed a good idea. We had a chat and she drew away when I put my arm around her saying she did not want to be distract from her present intentions...or something to that effect.
I said it would be nice to get back together and that I am still here for her.
On Wednesday she had a mystery appointment at the Hospital...she was not going to tell me but it "slipped out". Still do not know what it was for. As far as I know she is in good health and her cervical smear check..due now..will be I presume at the local surgery.

to be cont/d..

...
29th Sept, Fri. WW is over the moon having had some good interviews and a job offer.
Happy / singing / texting her friends...on a "high" as she put it.
She had asked me earlier to view in her various formal suits to assess and advise. I told her what I thought was the best cobbination...she agreed. I said she could not have looked smarter.
In the evening WW went off for an evening at OM's inn. Very sexily dolled up!. I was still up when she returned at 1-30 a.m in the morning in my study beneath her room...quite well soundproofed. I could nevertheless hear her "crying her heart out for quite a while"!.

She went up to OM's inn on Sunday evening foe the weekly quiz night and returned late eve.
On Monday eve she went to the inn for wine tasting from about 7 pm to 11 pm. A sexy black g-string on the washing next day. This does not mean anything untoward happened..perhaps just wishfull thinking on her part?.I have noticed that she has always worn these and thongs on her nights out with OM!.
These had not appeared on the line for 2 weeks or more!

So, after the Affair is over there is still some contact.I know at present I will not be able to do anything about this..but presume it will hinder any reconciliation.

Yesterday evening..Wed 4th Oct...was the firstime we will have sat down together in the main lounge relaxing, with television and general conversation.
For the last 2 weeks WW has been busy, out, closeted in her room or out.
She had intended to job seek before the Affair anyway.

I am just sitting back to see what happens next.

Is her brain still foggy with still intense feelings for OM?.
Or is her brain clear ...and she definitely has no intention of reconciliation?.
I feel I have tread carefully and take my time before initiating discussions on our relationship, EN's..etc.

An incident of probably no consequence...if you will pardon my mentioning it. But I felt it showed she still felt comfortable with me.
While relaxing on the settee yesterday evening WW broke wind 4 times loudly and at length!. She apologised but was not embarrassed. Certainly not something she would have done in front of ANYONE else...so I considered this was a sign she still felt very comfortable with me!.

note error in first line...." I will still be there for her"!.

Nagrom,

I'm not giving up on you...I don't know what to say. I won't aid you in trying to interpret your WW, though. You know I believe in honesty and directness. DJs come in reading actions and body language and not asking...so you can know her truth, and share your own.

You repeated the recent history...the timeline again. Is this to aid you in knowing wayward intentions? You know the stages? WS goes wayward, has an affair...in your case, right in front of you and her family...affair ends...she got replaced...doesn't change her wayward state of mind because she didn't end it, didn't wake up to all the destruction...so she's still wayward...full of entitlement, fueled by resentment and lack of respect.

Had she ended the A, and gone no contact, then she'd be in withdrawal right now...would take a month or two...before her perspective stopped being wayward--full of justifications...and after withdrawal, recovery could begin.

Your WW won't get to withdrawal until there is no contact. As long as there is contact...even visual...the affair continues. Her wayward state of mind continues. She doesn't want to recommit to your marriage, because she isn't. That's all I know. I don't see how your circumstances have really changed.

Why are you not accompanying her to the inn? Seeing if there is contact, acknowledging you are her husband and not separated?

I know how difficult it is...full of pain and fear...doing it anyway because you're the reality bringer...is what counts for you, doing all you can to save your marriage...so you'll know, no matter what she chooses, you can walk away with a new you, or work on recovery with a new you. Up to you.

How comfortable are you with her? Doesn't sound too comfortable. In the UK, do husbands have rights to knowing the medical condition of their wives? Does your privacy policy include this?

How about the kids? Are they aware the A ended and her wayward behavior hasn't?

Did she get the job? When does she start?

When she asks for your style advice on dress, why not tell her the truth? "I believe you have great taste. I'm sure you'll look great." And walk away?

If you perceived that treating her like the child she isn't, which gave you feelings of inclusion, attention, appreciation...was costing you your marriage, would you stop doing that?

Do you want to be there for her before, during and after every affair...or do you want to be her partner, her equal for the rest of your lives?

Do you like being hugged by an arsonist? Your WW is burning down your family...you haven't been hugged by your W in eight months or more...have you? Know the difference. She's WW...not your dear W. Tell me how much you want your ENs met by someone who isn't your W?

LA

LA,
Thanks for responding. I meandered on in my posting including in it some possibly irrelevant matters so that there might be some clues as to WW's mind is working.
Anyway I think you have answered my questions by confirming that withdrawal cannot happen until there is absolutely no contact....even simply to view OM !.

I consider there is no point in accompanying WW to the Ship inn..(and I really do not want see OM ). There is no doubt she will, at least, view him. And no doubt be served drinks by him. Contact may continue as no more than that.

I always felt comfortable with W, as she said she was with me (according to her mother).
I do not feel at all comfortable with WW.

I am certain that, here in the UK, I would normally have no right to obtain medical information on my wife.

The children have been told the Affair has ended and they are aware the situation between WW nad I remains the same.

WW got the job and starts on Saturday...tomorrow.

I think it best that WW appears to have ceased giving me hugs....for whatever reason?! They were probably not very sincere.
Are you saying in effect that there is little point in discussing EN's with WW.?.
Seems like stalemate and a waiting game for me.

Your comments are much appreciated.

Nagrom,

How are you doing with your own personal recovery? Have you been finding within yourself your fear, pain, anger and frustration and finding out what belief they are coming from?

Have you been stating your truth out loud...those drive-by "I" statments? How about listening and repeating back...

"I hear you believe you get your own confidence from your affair partner, is that correct?"

Can you see where her choice to use others to live in the fantasy that her self-respect and confidence comes from the outside is dangerous to her marriage?"

"I expect you have been hoping I would come back to you once the Affair was over?!"..."

"I hear you are assuming that I have been hoping you would come back to our marriage once the A was over, is that correct? I don't do assumptions anymore. They are disrespectful. Your affair continues as long as you have any contact with your adultery partner. I consider you still active in your A even though you are no longer physical with each other."

This would be your truth...valid...your thoughts and beliefs. Be sure of what you truly believe, Nagrom. Then speak of it.

"I feel I have tread carefully and take my time before initiating discussions on our relationship, EN's..etc."

By choosing to tread carefully, I hear you are choosing to be manipulative instead of living in truth. If you desire your marriage to be open and honest, then so must you be. Radically so. Do you want your W back due to your choices, or hers?

"her saying she did not want to be distract from her present intentions...or something to that effect.
I said it would be nice to get back together and that I am still here for her."

Listen and repeat, "I hear you saying you do not want to distract yourself from your present intentions. I have no idea what your present intentions are or what may or may not distract you from them."

Clarify, don't assume. If you persist in DJs, then your marriage will fail to ever thrive, if it survives. Respect yourself, what you do not understand...intimating, mindreading (happens from years of being together) state that she is your real W not the WW...and that's a lie, is it not? Ask for clarification, listen and repeat. No refuting...state what you want, feel, think, believe and perceive...not as an answer to her stuff. Acknowledge and validate her choices, so you both can see them, 'k?

This is what I did while waiting for my WH to decide either for or against the marriage. There are two choices here...your WW can either choose the marriage or not choose at all...which is not choosing the marriage. Your choice requires you stating it, along with all of your own stuff...sharing it aloud. "I choose our recoverying our marriage. Would you like to go to a movie tonight?"

You aren't really waiting...you are choosing your marriage. To reach your goal, you remain the reality bringer. Stay in it, which requires no assumptions (DJs), be intimate--knowing yourself and sharing yourself, and enforce your boundaries. Share what you've discovered about your ENs, what they are. Be open and honest (O&H). You can thrive, Nagrom. You really can, whether your marriage does or not.

In your corner,

LA

LA,
I have carefully read your last posting which I fully understand.
But although the physical aspect of the affair is over WW still intends to remain friends with OM and visit the inn some evenings. Ostensibly to meet friends she has made there and the weekly quiz run by OM.
So there is still some "contact" and I am sure WW is still infatuated by him and would return to him if asked.

While this continues she will not be receptive to discussing our marriage and EN's..etc..and issues mentioned by you.
So matters need to drift on for a while to see what happens...it may be at some point soon conversation could lead into talking about us.

WW did make a curious remark the other day when saying she did not expect the Affair to last long....."I went into it with my eyes open"!.

A brief update of my circumstances. Little change or progress. WW and I still in same house and sleeping separately.. Go our separate ways outside the house....not my choice.
Otherwise we get on well together..sharing all chores and looking after the children.
WW is now working several days a week...so 2 or 3 evenings a week I have an evening meal ready for her and the children.

Although DD21, who has "spies" in the area assures me the Affair is truly over, WW obviously sees OM on the evenings she still goes to the inn to meet her friends.
WW is unfortunately now friendly with his mother.

We chat amicably for a while most days relaxing in the lounge watching her TV programmes. WW has always loved conversation and can "talk the hind leg off a donkey!".

But WW is usually at work, doing household chores or resting in her room..often trying on new clothes.
She does have days of irritability though does seem a bit more voluntarily open about what she is up to, when she will be out, for how long, where..etc...

to continue...

.....cont/d...
On Saturday evening when we were relaxing in the lounge chatting and watching her TV programmes she had a text message. Not unusual!...but surprisingly she told me without being asked that the caller was called Miles...someone she chats to at the inn...but said they are just friends.
I mentioned this to DD21 the next day. She said "Oh Miles, there is nothing going on there!". And WW (her mum)had already told DD21's friend that WW was not at all interested in him.

To add in a personal comment re WW. I had noted while the Affair was in progress that WW always wore thongs when visiting OM, bur rarely at any other time. But I now notice 3 weeks after the Affair "ended" she is wearing them again when out in the evenings.


Anyway, I am just "ticking over" at present to see what happens and to be ready for the opportunity of discussing our relationship..EN's..etc..

Up until August this year WW had said on several occasions that a future reconciliation was "not out of the question". And that she did not want to see the house sold, or a final separation, in case we got back together again. Also concerned she might regret it.

But more recently she has said a couple of times..."If I am in my own house next year...(this and that)..".

LA....you said a while back that WW now has a FALSE esteem and confidence. What does this mean...that it is just temporary?.
And also more recently she told me OM had been a great help to her and given her back her confidence.

Reading your messages just breaks my heart. You seem to be content with accepting so little from your wife. I truly believe that since you virtually allowed her to continue the sexual affair for so long without really standing up to her and showing her that their are consequences to her actions; now that the affair has ended she simply sees you as a brother/roommate who provides interesting conversation and helps with the kids and around the house. You allowed her to disrespect and humiliate you and your marriage for so long that it is unimaginable that she would be attracted to you in the way you wish her to be. How could she?

I am really sorry for you my friend. You really seem like such a great fellow. We are on this planet for such a short time. Let me ask you this. Say for the sake of argument she find someone else and left you and moved to another country. How would you then live and pursue your life? I doubt you would just stay home and vegetate. I suspect that you would get involved in all sorts of activties and meet new people. This is what you wife has been doing while you patiently wait for her to return to her senses but why should she since there was never any consequences to her actions and you sent a clear message for her to follow her desires and condoned her affair by allowing it to contine. The problem is that she has turned into a self-centered narcissitic person who looks at you and cannot see you and clearly she cannot see herself for what she is what she has done. Don't waste anymore of your life and energy on someone who will never appreciate you. These are just my thoughts and as always I wish you the best.

Being ready for the opportunity to discuss your relationship, ENs, etc?

Nagrom? Set an appointed time you both can attend and do it. Friday night at 7pm, without children around. How's that sound? Until you make it happen, you will continue to DJ your WW...and she's still wayward.

You aren't reconciling because you wouldn't do Plan A and then Plan B...you're in Limboland...and yes, she's still attacking the boundaries of a healthy marriage, so you're not in one. Or on your way to one, are you?

On the esteem issue...do you build your self-esteem through what others think of you, or what you think of yourself? Do you feel confident because you know and love yourself, or because others know and love you?

Which do you think she's believing if she believes a man who stabbed her husband of 27 years straight through the heart every day of 137 days or so was a great help to her and gave her back her confidence? And a child took it away from her?

Geesh...Nagrom...why? What have you done that's so wrong in your life to treat yourself this way? To hurt, betray and injure yourself?

My DH did the same thing as you did...waited for my A to end...thought then we'd work on our marriage...and we didn't...he stayed silent, waiting...and me, out of my friggin' mind...which just led to more nonsense, truly...and he chose to have an A himself. Worlds of pain...he didn't have boundaries to enforce...he waited for opportunities, hoped I might turn around see how great he was...when the whole time I had justified all my behavior by choosing to see him as making me do this to him.

Why not own your life? Tell her you won't be married to her anymore. That you respect her choice to not reconcile, to continue to contact and to continue attacking your marriage, so you are ending it. Tell you know you have no control over her, that you're taking custody of your daughter, she has to move out now...no waiting, no help, because those are the consequences of her choices.

No anger or attack. Simply stated. Absolutely true. You do not choose to remain married to someone who believes they are single.

Put the house on the market...then maybe she will see the consequences of her actions--because she will remain this way as long as you meet her ENs and all those others meet the rest of them...no love deposits going in because she has no respect for you, the marriage or her family.

She has a long road to earn her way to redemption for herself. She does. It's all to her benefit to choose that road and later, thrive.

Do what you choose...know you have consequences for every choice you make...and don't make.

LA

LA,
Many thanks for your posting . It certainly clarifies the situation and what I should do.
I was since away at a long Horseball weekend away with DD12 and the horses. Very enjoyable and so absorbing that it was the first time I did not think of WW all the time!.

Anyway, WW has now decided to move to a flat she has found in the village. I will pay the modest rent and help set her up. She will take the car (leaving me the Landrover) and, at least initially, I will continue to maintain the car.
Her earnings are very modest and she has only some savings left, so may find it very hard.

I will remain in the house with the children. WW may call in now and again by phone appointment.

There is little doubt she does not have a current lover. Just has friends. But in discussing OM with her there is little doubt she is still infatuated with him...in love...or whatever. The physical side of the Affair has finished. I am 95% sure of this. But I do suspect that WW is hoping that OM's relationship with the other woman will end and he will have WW back. (Assumptions).

I have briefly discussed our relationship with WW and cannot get her to say what was wrong with our marriage.
As her moving out is imminent I feel it may be worthwhile writing a note, to back up discussion, listing things to discuss and for her to think further about?..
For example listing down all the important EN's for her to comment on re order of importance...etc...

She definitely does not want a divorce. She is at present only after the minimum £ to survive....rent, rates and initial setting up. And we will have to take it from there.

I have no idea of the outcome...taking it day by day....

I find this all very sad. Why are you enabling the destruction of your M? If she wants to move out instead of work with you on recovering your M, then SHE should be the one footing her bills. Your WW is trying to avoid making the hard decisions about her life, and you are assisting her in that regard by shielding her from the responsibility and consequences for her choices.

Nagrom,

Thank you for the update and questions.

"I have briefly discussed our relationship with WW"

Why briefly?

"and cannot get her to say what was wrong with our marriage."

You understand nothing made her have an A...she CHOSE. About her, not you, not the marriage. And no, you don't have the power to get anyone to look at themselves or share their stuff. What you have are boundaries around you...your WW is still wayward...she is choosing to separate from you, continue to live as if she's single. You are not in recovery, she isn't in withdrawal, and the fantasy fog persists...as deep as it was.

"As her moving out is imminent I feel it may be worthwhile writing a note, to back up discussion, listing things to discuss and for her to think further about?.."

Whatever you need to do for you is what you do. Let go any possible response...you choose what you do based on what you need...like we've talked about...if you want openness and honesty...then YOU must choose to act openly and honest. That's your human limit and power. You can state all of your stuff...thoughts, feelings, beliefs and perceptions. They are valid. In and of themselves...they are.

"For example listing down all the important EN's for her to comment on re order of importance...etc..."

She's not married, in her mind. She doesn't want to work on her marriage because she doesn't believe she's married, Nagrom. She's living a fantasy life. You are living it with her...pretending she's not really married, either. That you can't make her act married...when she is. You are.

As MiM said, you're enabling her fantasy. Wait until she moves out and file the legal separation or divorce papers immediately, her first day into her flat...do it, Nagrom. Break the fantasy in your own mind...you are married. She has already abandoned the marriage, her self-respect, her relationship with her children...because she is saying to them...people are replaceable. Commitments are tissue. Do what you want from what you feel...and to heck with everyone else.

Very destructive and harmful. How are your son and youngest daughter dealing with her moving out? When will she actually be out...so you can take legal action? You've chosen to block her from her own consequences as much as possible...stepping out of the way of them is essential. Not you doing this to her...she is choosing, you are choosing.

Your choice has been the same all this time...do you want to live in REALITY or fantasy?

You have had the power to speak honestly, act honestly and hold reality with both hands. You've chosen not to...I understand. You haven't given yourself permission to stop living from manipulative (response-based choices). I understand.

You are so focused on the outcome you don't want, that you have no road to walk. You're doing that to yourself.

"She definitely does not want a divorce."

I'm sure she doesn't! Then she would bear the consequences of her actions!

"She is at present only after the minimum £ to survive"

She is a married woman and can thrive...she's choosing not to...she is focused on avoiding reality at all costs...to herself, you, her children and her life.

"And we will have to take it from there." No, Nagrom. That's where you slip each time...YOU don't have to take it from there. You have had inherent choice all the way. No "we"..."I am choosing to go along with her focus." Be in the truth of yourself, Nagrom. Not in her fog.

"I have no idea of the outcome...taking it day by day...."

Are you asking yourself each morning..."I am living this day authentically, from my truth and reality. I am enough for today. I am enough to enforce my boundaries, meet my own standards."

Is that your daily goal?

Have you asked yourself...am I choosing to not say or do this today because my goal remains to save my marriage without doing Plan A, Plan B or Plan D? Or am I doing this to avoid looking like a bad guy, or avoiding conflict? Is avoidance worth my self love and respect? What am I exampling to my children? How are they learning about boundaries...or are they learning about distraction--pretend you're single and poof, that's what you are--pretend it isn't hurting, distract to ease pain...and if I don't ask my kids what they are learning, how will I know?

Nagrom...your choices are yours...you want the "we" so you are using it...making it so, when it isn't. There is you and there is her...only one of you isn't living entitlement, fueled by resentment and a lack of respect...though, possibly, you are now there, yourself. I don't know.

Please listen to MiM...please look into your heart, find all the ways you live because you choose them...and ask yourself, am I choosing from my emotions? From fear or love? And what would I choose if I chose from my beliefs?

LA

Thanks both for your replies and concern. I just don't seem to be able to do the right thing! I will read and reread your post LA and give much thought as to what to d.
I love my W very much but am not afraid of being alone. At the very least I have my supportive and loving children.

My greatest concern is that a complete separation and divorce will mean serious financial hardship affecting the children's current lifestyle and education....especially dd12 and her horses.
If the children had all left home I would have taken a tougher line earlier.
WW has no chance of moving out at this stage without some financial help which I intend to keep to a minimum. This has happened suddenly and a quick decision was necessary.
I will have to give the matter of filing for divorce or separation now some serios thought.

Nagrom,

Which is more important to children?

Their hobbies and education...or their parents?

This isn't a trick question...and not a bash. Think inside yourself what your parents meant to you...and then think of your children...and that this isn't you doing this to them...

They will face adversity in life...you are showing them now how to prioritize, how to share feelings, thoughts, beliefs and perceptions...how to own what is truly theirs and what is not...you're exampling how to live...how to have and enforce boundaries; how they hold to their own standards...

You are teaching them what they are worth...by how you view your own worthiness.

No one wants to see their children suffer anything...I understand. I remember. Is that reality or fantasy? We hate to see them suffer because WE hurt inside...so it is about us, not them, in reality.

Teaching children how to deal with what life brings is critical to understanding consequences, natural and logical, choice, power, limits and boundaries.

Stuff you didn't understand...we only learn it when we learn it...when we are brought to it so we cannot distract or bandage around it...the tools for a lifetime, right there.

You pick your priorities based on loss...to mitigate...and a child cannot mitigate their loss of a mother...unless you help them to reduce it down through distraction. If you want to teach them to not face reality, to not face, comprehend and mourn their true losses, then continue to focus on their routines and stuff.

All stuff is a symbol...an emotional need. Not stuff. We can easily distract inside by focusing on one loss over another...and never mourn reality, only symbols.

What you have been doing this year is teaching your children and yourself how to face your fear, and act brave anyway. Face loss, mourn it, live through and learn from it. How to keep two feet deep in reality and thrive.

Or have you?

Or are you teaching them how to keep in tact what makes them the most comfortable, gives them the most solace through distraction, and how self-fantasy can soothe a rough reality?

I don't know...talk to them...they are all old enough to tell you their stuff. Would be GREAT to know...and I have experienced severe financial distress in my life, alone and with my children...and when all was said and done, nothing material came close to their emotional hardships...which are pervasive and affect your whole life...money does for a little while...until you adapt, re-prioritize, or get back to where you were before...with all the lessons you take with you...either learned or not.

LA

Rejected post...so testing!!

That frequently happens when you take too long (more than 5 minutes? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) to construct your message. It's very annoying. A quick solution is to first press the "Back" key, then copy the text from the "Post" box. Then, click on the "Reply" button and past the text you copied into the new "Post" box.

LA,
I read your posts thoroughly although I may not often follow your advice. But the contact has been a great help in getting me through this crisis.

The children arec still supportive and close to me and seem "happy" that WW has now left home and we can all relax a little.
Although I am sure they still love their mother, son18 appears to despise her and dd12 shows little respect for her.
to continue...