Quote: Have you been reading SHMI's Passive Aggressive Behavior thread? I would recommend it...HL has been participating, as well...great insights, and yes, I think you both have some of those behaviors...focusing on your own, as you are doing, which is Plan A, will stand you well.

LA-Can you explain this, I really didn't understand it? "and yes, I think you both have some of those behaviors..."

Thanks you! I'm so excited!

I don't even know where to start! I'm so blown away, reading about forgiveness, PA's, DJ's. DJ's I'm not sure I understand yet, I'm going to have to look into that some more! PA's, well, I'm at a last for words! FWH is PA,I have second guess myself for yrs, wondering if I was crazy. I really need to let all of it sink in. I already know that my SD is PA, but I believe that my Dad is as well.

I'm not going to let this hold me down! I've identified the problem, and I need to process it all. I'm going to keep Plan Aing, remain calm, work on myself, and I'll tink of something else later I'm sure!

Hurting- I had that forgiveness thing all wrong, becausse I know I'm still looking for my compensation, deleteing numbers, yadda, yadda, yadda! Thank you so much for suggesting the articles! How have you dealt with FWW all this time knowing she's PA?

I'm trying to figure out if I'm a PA too, or if I'm reacting to a PA. I know Hubbie is now! ANything conversation in the future I will ahndle like I did last night! I'm a little lost right now, but I'm going to bounce back!

How did all of you deal with this? I'm going to read up on all the posts in SHMI's, maybe I'll get the answers that I'm looking for!

Thank you everyone! I'm still looking forward to hearing from you Longhorn! Where are you? Any thoughts? Suggestions?

I have second guessed myself as well. I can't tell you how many times I went into a discussion with what I considered to be logical points only to find out I was crazy for thinking that way(her words) LOL.

After reading the thread on PA then researching I realized she was PA. It hasn't been long.

Now I realize as I look back in every discussion we had she was always the victim at the end.

I realized she would agree to go to my familys then make it a very tense situation.

She does not exhibit all of the traits but most of them.

I actually started speaking in a low monotone voice before I read that was what you should do.

Dealing with it is impossible. It needs to be resolved. LA has some good advice but she sees my 180 as an attempt to manipulate my FWW. I really don't know what to do at this point.

FWW is in AA right now and thinks that is enough to work out her problems.

Tonight I kinda drove the point home a little. MIL is leaving tommorow and invited us all out to dinner her treat. I agreed at first then two minutes later called back when I felt myself resenting saying yes.

My FWW asked why I wouldn't go. I said first of all your mom is playing games. This is not an attempt at being nice to us this is an attempt to make herself feel better. She has treated you like crap for a week and a half. She has not said two words to me and now she is going to take us to dinner to seem like the good person. I won't go.

My FWW asked what she should do I said go with your mom. She said she didn't want to go either but what could she do. I said nothing. If you go your mom can feel better about herself even though she treated us like crap. If you don't go she is going to be the victim because she tried to reach out to you. Either way it is a win win for her.

I said it is tough dealing with a PA person you can never win. She asked if I was talking about her and I said no right now I am talking about your mom.

I felt bad because she was on the verge of tears when she walked out but I can only deal with one PA person at a time.

Maybe she is finally starting to realize her behavior and maybe she is starting to see she wanted to trade in what we had for that life.

Read everything you can on PA and then use what will work in your M and discard the rest.

BTW I knew you hadn't forgiven him yet. LOL. We all need to be compensated justly. LOL

Funny thing before I started here I used the money analogy with my FWW. She still didn't get it.

NC,

It takes two to do the PA dance...you'll find that in the thread through a link. Your part remains your part...which is your power. Finding your behaviors, reacting instead of acting, taking personally what is not yours, are essential ingredients. You can't be done to...you participate in.

What kicks the butt of a PA partner? Our own expectations, holding them to our standards, creating and building resentment, scorecarding, measuring, judgment...believing he makes you and you make him feel, think or believe anything.

What in all of that do you find in you?

A simple PA behavior which is common, even in partners of PA, and those not exhibiting full-blown PA behaviors...

Your feelings are hurt and you don't say anything. In fact, you smile, a weak, trembly little smile, and say, "I'm okay" when you aren't. Then you huddle inside yourself, resenting the harm that's been done you...and as you hold it against your partner, you feel better, more right, more powerful for a few moments, which eases the hurt you felt before.

You've just taught yourself to be passive and internally, when you snip with anger over something unrelated an hour or day later, you feel justified...aggressive.

I discovered many of these behaviors in myself. Finding them in me, through their payoffs and patterns, helped me to better understand the fear my PA partner lived in his whole life.

Compassion begins internally.

LA

Thank you both for your posts. At first, I was seriously thinking "How in the HE$$, am I going to deal with this too?" I've read and re-read as much as I can. I'm on the four page of SMHI's post and last night H and I got into it! Well, he did, I stayed with a monoatone voice, my insides were nervous as all he$$, but I did my best to not show any emotions. I ran a bath, and told him it was ready whenever he was. I waited a few minutes and walked back into the living room and he was on his porn site. I grabbed my HNHN, and stood at the doorway to go back to the bathroom. H said What? and go ahead say what's on your mind! Said I looked like I was in a bad mood all day. I said no, I was in a good mood until a second ago. I said I find that you looking at that disrespectful to me.

I can't remember everything that was said, my insides were nervous at first. I told him that I was tried of mot saying what I feel and think, because I was scared of him being angry. I said I'm not scared of you anymore. At some point, he punched the wall! I asked if he was okay, no response! Then, he said "If I has some place to go I would leave right now, and you would have to explain to your kids why daddy's not here?" I said I would explain to the boys that mom and dad were having problem and dad is passive aggressive. He was not happy about that and said I could take all the books that I've being reading and throw them in the trash. I said I could if I wanted too, But I didn't want too because I enjoyed learning things. He walked back into the bathroom, I was in the tub a this point, and he gave me a look that said I could Kill you right now! He may have punched the wall at that point I'm not sure! He had even walked out of the house and slammed the door while I was in the tub! He said something about me treating him like a child. I said after he asked what I wanted from him, I wanted to talk to him like a mature adult. He was trying so hard to attack me, trying to hit the my weak spots like the kids, leaving, the books, and my fear. I showed him I wasn't scare, I wasn't going to back down, and I was going to give in all in a calm, rational voice. I did tell him that I loved him. I asked if he wanted to know why I loved him, but no response. I had prepared a list earlier that day! Over the weekend, I had also left some information in the bathroom on PA. I know he had to have picked it up at some point because the papers were moved that creased on the top.

He started doing the silent treatment, and went to take a shower. I asked if he wanted me to make him a sandwich to take to work, but he didn't answer me. So, I did it anyway, and fixed his lunch box. After his shower, he sat on the sofa, pouting! I acted like it didn't bother me, and actually it didn't. I have a daily scripture book, and I took it out and started reading the day's passages. He got up an went to the bed without a word. After I finished, I made sure he has a shirt for tomorrow, and gathered his dirty work shirts so he wouldn't forget them. before going to bed, I wrote him a note, asking if I had to wash any of his shirts, etc, said I love you and have a great day!

I did walk out of the bathroom after I finished getting dressed and said that I loved him very muchand I wanted to work on our M. I was trying make him feel secure, if that's possible. It's my opinion that he doesn't know hhow to take me right now. Example: I've never smoked in front of his parents, and I did this weekend. I warned him Friday night that I wasn't scare to smoke in fromt of people anymore. Conflict avoider; I didn't want to ear them tell me how bad it was, or anything, plus I was ashamed, but that's who I am. He didn't say anything. Sure enough, I wasn't scared, I was me all day at the boy's B-day party! It felt good, and last night's conversation didn't bother me, I feel good today! No regrets, I feel happy!

H called this morning to make sure that I was up. I greeted him with a cheerful "Good Morning!" His tone was not Cheerful, kinda of flat, and I said I love you before hanging up and he didn't reply. Maybe I'll see more of the silent treatment today.

Now, I understaand when a MB says "H/W will have to file for D, and if they do, then I know in my heart I've done everything that I could have done to save me M." It's funny how I was in Plan A mode during the conversation last night, and I didn't realize how nervous I was until this morning! I'm trying to treat every day as a new one and trying not to bring anything from the previous day to the next. I really did feel overwhelmed as first with the whole PA thing, wondering if I could do it, etc, etc.

I can tell you I've done some of the same things that PA's do, silent treatment, doing things to get back at him, etc., but you can bet I'm not doing those things again! I feel good today, even though, things are not great with Hubbie! I don't think I've ever done that! If we were having problems, I was miserable!

I feel like I have to push the A stuff on the side to deal with PA stuff. Is this true? How do I go about getting H to realize he's PA or is this something he has to terms with himself?

NC,

No Idea right now. I am fighting through the same thing as you right now.

The main concern I have is that a PA person agrees to do something and doesn't follow through with it. So how is a lay person supposed to know the difference.

In my reading I have also seen it is even hard for professionals to figure out if what they are doing is just more PA behavior.

Now IMHO (disclaimer I am not a professional!!!!) I can't figure out exactly how a person dealing with a PA has a chance. IMHO again I think it is the PA person that has to be committed to getting things straightened out with themselves before there is a chance to move forward.

I really don't know what the impetus for change within a PA person is other then they need to realize there is a problem. The other person then has to agree to change as well and not feed into the behavior.

I am really a little concerned to I thought once the FWW got into AA things might start moving in the right direction. Now I have to deal with the PA behavior before moving in the right direction.

I am personally struggling with what to do next.

I wish someone could give an answer as to how they dealt with a PA not in how great it has been but what do to get them to realize there is a problem.

I do not know if putting the A stuff is the answer. Maybe dealing with the A stuff will expose to your FWH his PA behavior.

What I have been doing is pointing it out at every turn including with her mom.

If I speak my feeling and she gets angry I then tell her this is exactly what I am talking about etc.

She doesn't like it but what can I do.

I told her that is really the reason I haven't decided to go to MC or get a D yet. I am not going to go to an MC just to have you get mad at me or you to be the victim.

I wish I had an answer I really do. I think you handled yourself well the other night. Who the heck knows.

NC...

Do you know what you can control and what you can't, as a human being?

"I was trying make him feel secure, if that's possible."

Can you make someone feel something, or do they feel what they feel?

Can yo make them think or believe something...or do they choose what they think and what they believe?

How about you? Can someone be the cause, control or cure for your thoughts, feelings and beliefs? Your perspective? Your perception?

Knowing this reality...that we cannot control another human on the planet...at all...ever...is crucial to respecting humans. We have influence on others...and only by their allowance...if they cut off our influence, then we don't have that influence...see the separate and equal here?

What would be your answer to:

"How do I go about getting H to realize he's PA or is this something he has to terms with himself?"

You've been dealing with his PA behaviors, your own; your own response patterns to his, which are yours, as necessary for the PA behavior to continue as your H...so you only do your part...to stop the dance...you can't make H feel safe...you can be safe.

Why are these two separate things, the A and the PA behavior? They both share a lot of common beliefs...enmeshment, resentment, entitlement, fear, lack of respect...

Your part is to see your part...not his...mine was to become respectful, safe, not owning what was his as mine...so easy to write and very difficult to do...until you practice it, then it becomes the healthy routine.

My DH was big on the silent treatment, blaming, resenting, porn and fantasies...however, your H is very in touch with his rage and mine couldn't feel it.

Your part remains your part...whether A stuff or PA stuff...doesn't it?

LA

LA,

I respect what you have said but I just don't get it.

"Your part is to see your part...not his...mine was to become respectful, safe, not owning what was his as mine...so easy to write and very difficult to do...until you practice it, then it becomes the healthy routine."

So I try that and it doesn't work. I am respectful, safe, I own mine then I try to practice it. But it is still the same dance.

If the PA person doesn't see it or refuses to work on theirs, because I can't make them, then what?

I told you I am in 180 and you tell me I am trying to manipulate. But so far when I have done the above I get accused of acting like "I love her".

Owning my own had caused a lot of anger in her. The minute I bring something up, tick, tick, tick, boom.

I am not afraid of confrontation but I am also a logical person. Confrontation that goes boom is not an answer either. The more I own the more it is a confrontation.

So how long do you keep pointing out the PA behavior and getting a boom before you throw your hands up.

Seems like your FWS was willing to work through it with you.

OH, I'm getting the silent treatment today! I acted like it didn't bother me and it really didn't, I'm still happy for standing up for myself last night!

LA- To answer my own question, I can't make him realize anything, he has to do it on his own. He has to want to realize that he's PA, that he's ruining a great thing, and want to make a difference.

"Can you make someone feel something, or do they feel what they feel?"

I think you can make someone feel something. Here we trying to met ENs, creating the feeling of love in our S. We also do this with our children.

"Can yo make them think or believe something...or do they choose what they think and what they believe?"

No, I don't think we can make people think or believe something. I do agree that we can influence them one way or another.

"How about you? Can someone be the cause, control or cure for your thoughts, feelings and beliefs? Your perspective? Your perception?"

Until here recently, yes, that's why I'm in the position that I'm in today! I think with discussion that...I guess that would be discussion would be influence. So, NO!

"Do you know what you can control and what you can't, as a human being?"

I know that I can control everything relating to me! I can control the way we spend our finances. I can't control my H, his behavior, reactions, actions, thoughts, dreams, ideas, feelings, sense of style, short coming, etc. I can't control whether or not people will like me, how a situation is going to go, but I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. How do I make this situation with H more comfortable for me? I'm trying my best not to hold back my feeling and thoughts by speaking my mind. I'm learning about myself and trying my best to improve. MOF, I haven't had any second thoughts about the way I handled yesterday, no feelings of despair, anxiety, etc.

Any suggestions to deal with the silent treatment for me to keep sane, this could go on for a day or two! Do I act like it's not bothering me, mention that it's unhealthy to be passive, what?

"Any suggestions to deal with the silent treatment for me to keep sane, this could go on for a day or two! Do I act like it's not bothering me, mention that it's unhealthy to be passive, what?"

No suggestions just some questions.

Who normally who makes the first step to end the silent treatment?

What makes the silent treatment end?

When it has ended how do you feel?

I will answer those questions for you in my M.

I make the first step.
It ended because I agreed to not be angry/hurt anymore or to sweep it under the rug for a while longer.
It made me feel like crap because I had a right to be angry/hurt and I had a right to talk about what lead to the silent treatment and not to sweep it under the rug.

I realized I can make the first step.
I just didn't agree not to be angry anymore and now I want to discuss my feelings that led to the silent treatment.

It kinda happened this weekend to a small extent. Better then not happening at all.

Well, I can tell you this. I'm not going to apologize for saying what was on my mind, and the feelings I was feeling! I'm not apologizing for continuing my education nor am I going to stop because he wants me too. (And he didn't even put it like that, he said I could throw my books away.) H keeps saying that he's not putting up with this anymore but never specifies what he's not putting up with. I will continue to be happy and he will have to deal with his anger or address the issue. I'm not going to avoid him, be mean, or make inappropriate comments. If by some chance he make inappropriate comments, I will ignore them. H has an I don't care attitude right now from what he said at lunch.

I'm not going to let his behavior affect mine, if he wants to talk like mature adults instead of throwing a tantaum like a child, I will talk to him, really talk to him. Otherwise, I guess I just throw his words back at him and remain calm.

Hurting, I guess you are I are going to have to try a few things before we get it right.

Notice, I didn't second guess myself am last night's conversation. I actually feel like I did better last night then the previous encounter, especially with the comment about the kids and leaving!

It is what is it, right?

NC,

OMG to:
"he's not putting up with this anymore but never specifies what he's not putting up with. I will continue to be happy and he will have to deal with his anger or address the issue"

Well in my M I figured out what "this" is.

I wrote the following this morning on the PA thread.

"I said so let me get this straight you tell me something that you did and I get angry. I want to talk about my feelings and you tell me you are not going to do "this" anymore. I have had a hard time understanding what "this" is for a long time. I now realize what "this" is. "This" is me telling you my feelings.

You can tell me your feelings. You can tell me when I am wrong. You can tell me what you did and how it makes you feel. But if I ever try to tell you my feelings you say "you are not doing this anymore". Quite frankly I can't do this anymore either.

I don't see how MC is going to help at this point because we will be working through "this" and you have said you are not doing this anymore"

What I have found about my FWW is the fight or flight mode is all she knows. There is no middle ground. Either she fights about it or runs from it. Sometimes she fights first until logic prevails. Then she goes into flight mode hoping it will blow over.

I have made it clear I will not do that anymore.

You keep up what you are doing it is your future. It should be secure and if he benefits from that great. If not great for you.

Own what is yours. Do not throw his words back at him though.

I try agree, confirm, answer. First I agree with what she is saying, then I confirm what I think she said then I answer it. This is a sales technique that I am good at. The last step is close. Agree, confirm answer close. It disarms them.

If all else fails tell him thank you for clarifying that for me. I always thought if I did that you would get upset. Now if I chose to do it I know you won't be.

HL,

"I am respectful, safe, I own mine then I try to practice it. But it is still the same dance."

I do not live with you, nor know through anything but your posts. I do not see safe...you may act safe, but I read DJs, grown from disappointment and pain, a mindset that perceives her stuff more than your own...and I believe you are owning your own stuff...so I don't see how the dance is different.

Help me to see what you have radically changed in you in the last few months. You mentioned being shocked by seeing your patterns of reaction rather action...tell me in what ways and maybe we can find out why your relationship hasn't changed.

"So how long do you keep pointing out the PA behavior and getting a boom before you throw your hands up."

Pointing out her behavior is disrespectful, not respectful. Her boom is hers...yours are healthy boundaries. You do not allow yourself to LB, nor do you allow yourself to be LB'd with AO's, DJ's, SD's...you have progressive boundary enforcements and there are loving towards you and your wife. They are reasonable.

The way you presented your intent to implement 180 plan was to change her response...that's how I understood what you wrote...which can just be a continuation of the pursuer/withdrawer dance...when she withdraws, you used to pursue; when you'd withdraw, she'd pursue...and 180 to get her to pursue didn't appear to be different from what you both had been doing. My interpretation...impression. You set me straight. You are committed to 180 to be full of self-care and self-focus...present and respectful...did I get that correct?

Then why are you focused on her reactions, behaviors? Are you saying that she makes you afraid? You liked her initial response to your 180...more interest. You say that wasn't your intent...your intent was for you...what was YOUR response to your 180? What are you getting out of it from YOU...see your focus?

Center upon yourself and these questions won't occur:

"But so far when I have done the above I get accused of acting like "I love her"."

Accused is a DJ. She says she thinks you are acting like you love her. That's her truth, not yours. Has no bearing on breaking this enmeshment and injecting respect. If you are choosing your actions based on her possible responses, then you are engaged in the same dance as before.

Enmeshment is deep, HL...difficult to see...like fog...where her feelings affect your feelings affect her feelings...getting this broken, separate and equal, knowing where you end and she begins, feeling your feelings not hers, is imperative, I believe, to getting to the rest of it...like a bone set wrong...break it, reset it, and allow it to heal...when it's functional, better than ever, then you honor what is hers, follow the four rules of marriage, including protection, which ask you to consider her feelings...not feel them. By then you know thoroughly you choose your actions, not react; you determine your response and your priorities are marriage first...so yes, you do not act against her feelings...I believe, you can't get to that point, until you go through this one.

I stopped confronting my FWS...I began to share, own and state. Began with drive-bys and moved on into full half-hour communication exercises twice a week; I stopped expecting, asking for promises, saying he was making me feel, think or believe...I stopped talking to fill up space and asked myself, each time before I spoke, what was my motive and goal? If it was to get assurance, feel cared for, wanting a certain response from FWS, then I didn't speak. I gave what I wanted to myself.

I stopped judgment...and that was extremely ingrained in me...deeply...asked him to help me see when I did...and stayed alert. No pointing, comparing, expecting, resenting...DJs pervaded my life. He helped ME to stop.

"Seems like your FWS was willing to work through it with you."

He wasn't willing...for himself; he was doubtful, cautious, pessimistic. He was sick of living as he did, and in parts, still is...however, he no longer looks at me as the cause, control or cure for anything he feels, thinks or believes. He didn't read the books, reluctantly spent the 15 hours of UA; he continued his PA behaviors...until I quit asking, telling, pointing out...period. No lecturing, preaching, teaching, etc...all stuff I learned, I shared as what I found interesting...and sharing. No persuading, imploring or putting anything on him...just O&H statements for me, about me...out loud, with him.

Know why I don't believe you've become safe? "Owning my own had caused a lot of anger in her." You believe what you do angers your wife...not that she feels anger...you cause it. Your actions do. Your choices. This is why I know you're not safe...as long as you believe this, then you cannot respect your wife's stuff, nor your own.

She feels anger...probably pain or fear just before that...until she knows, you can't know...it's hers.

LA

NC,

"Otherwise, I guess I just throw his words back at him and remain calm."

Is this how you understand listen and repeat?

LA

LA,

I am safe as I can be.
Please remember one thing my FWW just decided to be radically honest with me a month and a half ago.
Up until 6 months ago she was drinking every day until she was drunk.
I have just realized this PA behavior.

Ok LA she stated her feelings that I didn't love her. Not accused. Let me get this straight. I say to my FWW I have a boundry and that is when we go out together do not flirt with other men. She crosses that boundry. I get angry. She goes through denial, dismissal, etc. If she appologizes we move on. Instead we fight. I have a choice of course but my choice tonight was to enforce my boundries and go home. I am the bad guy she gets mad at me. I get angry we fight. Now because we fought I "am acting" like I don't love her.

I see this as part of the dance I am trying to avoid you see this as me being disrespectful etc.

What she is saying is anytime I get mad at her I have two choices let it go so she is happy or get mad and then proves I don't love her.

She uses this as a conflict avoidence tool. She has a lot.

I appreciate the analogy of a broken bone. Now I have been trying drive by's and I will see how they work.

I will be completely honest with you I don't know if I have the energy for this.

I think we should be a lot farther along then we are. I know you will point the finger at me but oh well.

My DJ's. BTW why wasn't it a DJ when she said she said I didn't love her? She may believe that is her reality but it is a judgement. If she really thinks I don't love her then I should just leave.

You'd have your answer to this question if you had read the two threads I posted for you to read.

One of you has to be the leader, and it isn't going to be her. She's totally lost right now. But you're here and you're getting help and I see great people who've been around this thing stepping up to help you through it.

You don't have to take it all in, in one day. It takes time to 'get it'. But there are so many rewards when it sinks in. Marriages can be saved. Even yours.

No, I did not mean to write that. I meant to say listen, repaet, and understand. I caught that when HL replied. Thank you for being it to my attention.

I also liked how you explained everything to HL. there was just one question I need regarding this "just O&H statements for me, about me...out loud, with him."
Did you mean about you with him, or with him in the room?


I'm shocked you didn't have anything else to say about my post! LOL Are you shacking on me? LOL

NC,

Sorry for the hijack. No more posting about my probs on your thread. LOL.

If it was someone else, I might get really angry, but since it's you I'll just cut your head off and feed it to the alligators down here. LOL

Actually, I'm glad that you posted because I hope I learned a thing or two from it! You might want to post that in SMHI's. It might help someone else too, include LA response, if you can!