"She said I don't know that is why I am asking you what I should do because you are better at that then me."

"I know you as a capable, smart, determined woman, W. I know whatever you decide to do will be your best choice. I really believe that."

How often do you say this?

LA

"I know you as a capable, smart, determined woman, W. I know whatever you decide to do will be your best choice. I really believe that."

Point taken.

I will try this. NO DJ'S here but I do like to have the next thing to say as well.

So without me DJing and saying what might happen why don't you help me out with some of the next things I might need to say. Or do I just keep repeating the original statement?

When you have the belief firmly in place, the words come. Humans speak from their beliefs...

Do you believe she is capable, smart and determined? Know where I got that? Being married to you and sober for nearly seven months and human.

You know her. What you believe, without proof, is as potent as that for which you gather evidence.

"I feel" and "I believe" are ownership statements. "You do" "You say" are not. "I hear you say" is. This isn't elementary stuff...may appear like it is once you begin to see the belief as a truism...this isn't talking down or up to you. Just to you, HL.

What you perceive is valid...its yours. Saying the other person is actually being a certain way...stubborn, angry, etc...well, is that a truth or your truth? Perception has limits...to say, "I believe you're angry with me" is valid. To say, "You're angry because I said I didn't feel happy with you" is not.

Do you often feel the need to be prepared or rehearsed with your wife? Or is it more now, with all that you've been studying?

I used to be on the forensic team in school...competitive speech...began in seventh grade...with dramatic interpretation...and I rehearsed, over and over again, memorizing, delivering, watching myself in the mirror. I felt fake. I did well. I believed others were naturals and I was a fake.

I wasn't. In Plan A, I repeated to myself, "Good to know," though I didn't look in the mirror...and "I hear you saying" and "I feel" "I believe" and I didn't feel I was fake at all. I felt this was steps to achieving my goal...to live respectfully.

And authentically.

Difficult to do when I believed I was being fake.

LA

HL-Sorru for the miscommunication betweem the two of us. HAHA What to get M? Just Joking!

Practice makes perfect with seincerity! It's one of things you have to feel in your heart after you clean the pipes of all the junk you've filled it with.

I'm not sure what you guys mean by a drive-by, but I think I did one last night! H was in the tub and we had a B-day party to go to. I was standing at the sink, and said "BTW, I have an answer to your question!"

H-"What question?"

ME-"you asked what I wanted from you? And I've decided that I don't want anything from you!"

H-"UHM!"

ME-" I'll tell you why, b/c if I tell you what I want and you don't live up to it, or can't live or follow though, for whatever reason, then, I'm the one that gets angry, disappointed and hurt! By telling you nothing anything I get will be a bonus!"

H sat there for a second, (seemed like a minute) and said "okay!" He seemed really thoughtful, and I didn't say anymore!

Well, I saw that he was on his porn site again, but I didn't say anything about it, also I was nosey and saw that he moved the key chain from one spot to another in his truck.

Party was great, we got home and I went take a bath while H walked to the neighbors to give her some sunflower seeds. She just had surgery, and asked that we pick her some up! (It's that taking care of other people PA thing!)

Anyway, I got out of the tub, sat on the sofa then, after H took his shower, he came sat with me. H asked what was wrong? I said "I was just thoughtful today. I was just thinking about the time that your XGF paged you that one night and you left to go call her! That was the night I burned all your porn magazines." I said "I was really angry because you put she before me, and I burned your magazines because I've never liked you looking at porn."

Later, I asked why did he bring me shopping after I had behaved so badly the day I started hitting him. H said that he had been meaning to and would like to do it again soon because he knows there's some other things that I wanted there. I explained that I was confused about it because of my behavior, and that was the day that I wouldn't be were I am today because of that day!

He went on to say that no matter what that why he gets up everyday because of me and the kids. we are the most important thing to him and that's why he lives. H said that he knows he doesn't say it enough but he loves me very much. I was in shock and didn't know what to say, not only the words coming from his mouth but the tone of his voice was sincere. I sat there without saying a word for a minute, then, said that I had thought alot about when people first start dating. When you start there are no expectation b/t the two people, and as time goes by we start to built expectation and that's the reason why we start building anger and resentment.

There was a little more said, then H started talking about work and rattled, and rattled, and rattled about work. I just sat and listened, noded, said okay, laughed a little, or said Umh every once and a while. When I was ready to go to bed, I sat on the end of the sofa and waited for him to finish and get up.

I got in bed, back facing him, but I couldn't go to sleep. So, I went check on OS, 8 yrs. old now, and he was still up. I made him turn the TV off, and I went crawl back in bed. Immediately, I don't know if he was asleep or now, he was when I got out of the bed, grabbed me and pulled me close to him. I was laying there think, please, NO SF! I got lucky, it would have been like the last two times, wake me up in me sleep, do his thing and that's it. No affection, no nothing. Needless to say, I fell asleep fast but got up three times in the middle of the night!

I saw him this morning; he appeared to be in a good mood! I have OS with me at work today and H and I are bring him to eat Chinese for lunch. It's a surprise, he loves Chinese!

Well, you all have a good day. I think my night went well with Mr. chatterbox. LOL I know he's comfortable talking about work! It's a start! He can talk to me when he wants to but when he's in PA mode, watch out!

Oh, I forgot to mention what H said about the shopping thing! he said that he realized that he's stubborn and selfish, and he usually always buys things for himself. he said that occasional he likes to but things for me, and do some things for me. H said he wanted to take me back shopping and wants to buy me a paor of riding boots for the motorcycle.

Now, believe me, I'm not counting on anything. It's one of those "I'll believe it when I see it!" I know I can't count on it, b/c if I do and it doesn't happen then, my feeling will be hurt and I'll be angry and disappointed. So, I don't expect it to happen and if it does, I'm happy!

Anyone know where I can find some articles on Guilt/Rejection cycle? I would like to read more on it?

NC,

I don't remember any books...but then, I read so many at one time, it seems to me now...

I think it might have been in "Facing Love Addiction" and yeah, I forgot the author (bad reader me, eh?)...213601 is reading it...he said he got lucky and found it--says it is in print, when I suspected it was out of print...

Picked it up at a used bookstore...you know the kind who are bibliophiles, and they pile? Stacks and stacks...and you worm your way through, glimpsing spines? Well, I'd never heard of this book, nor knew you could be addicted to a person...but I saw that spine and I let that idea come in...and took the book.

Wow.

Thanks for asking for a book...I just had another amazing memory...like the one from Ears_Open's thread...

As for your H's saying what he desired to do...take you back for the boots sometime...I learned to treasure his thought, not the execution, which is what I believe you're saying with the "not counting on it"...my resentment would be so deep that the thought would count for nothing to me because I DJ'd as just another promise waiting to be broken...

I like treasuring the thought and letting the future arrive.

Did I mention my H came up with an idea for our bedroom (months ago, I expressed a slight desire to have our bedroom as place of serenity)...and as of yesterday, completed the project, stunningly quick, after sharing his idea with me first and when he heard I thought it fabulous...began on it...again, not the handy guy...and yes, he got a router out of it...still...amazing. How blessed am I? And he has another marvelous idea and I believe, he will do this even more ambitious project, without a word from me.

I share this to ask, can you see how not expecting does not mean you won't be surprised, delighted or amazed? We really don't know the future...unless we remain in the past, insuring that life doesn't change.

Everything matters, NC...each choice you make...and you're making ones now with more awareness and knowledge than ever before...life grows around us as we grow. I promise.

LA

NC,

What are you acomplishing here?

You are a person. You have feelings. You should have expectations.

Let me state this clearly. You should expect that your FWH thow that keychain away! Anything else is insensitive and uncaring.

My FWW kept the pictures she took on her vacation. They were a trigger for me. The biggest one was that when she came home she took the film down quicly had it developed threw the pictures of her and OM away and destroyed the negatives. When I saw those pictures all I could think about is what pictures were thrown away. One roll only had 12 out of 27 pictures. I went in one day and took out all of the pictures and laid them out on our bed. I told her about the triggers and why. She reluctantly agreed to get rid of them. Since then I have not had to worry when looking through our pictures and running into that.

You should expect for him to get rid of the key chain to expect anything less is devaluing your own feelings. If I were you I would take it out and put his keys on it. Let him know it is more painful that he keeps it and tries to hide it then to just walk around with it.

" I'll tell you why, b/c if I tell you what I want and you don't live up to it, or can't live or follow though, for whatever reason, then, I'm the one that gets angry, disappointed and hurt! By telling you nothing anything I get will be a bonus!"

NC I have been following you for a while now. Do you really believe that you are capable of expecting nothing from your FWH? I know I am not capable of that. As a matter of fact I feel like if I do that I would be ripe for an A.

Think about that. I can't expect anything from my FWW and she delivers. Sooner or later my Needs are not being filled. Some sweet talking thing comes along, singing her song, just stop cause I really love you, stop I been. Wait isn't that Elton John and Kiki D. I digress. But boom I am in an A. We go to MC and the MC says why. I say because my FWW didn't fill my needs. I expected nothing and thats what I got. Sometimes she gave a little and I counted that as a bonus. This OP just freely filled my needs. When I expected something she delivered. It felt great having someone fill my needs without all the resentment.

I would suggest you go back to SMHI's thread and read silver's post.

You are a good person. You should expect certain things. If he doesn't fulfill them you shouldn't give him permission not to. Self love my friend.

If you think I am crazy let me know. I will leave your thread alone.

One, I don't think that you are crazy, and if I did I would still want you to post on my thread.

One that key chain is not a REALLY big deal to me, it's actually the idea behind the key chain. The fact that he's hiding it. He already knows that I'm not happy that he has it; however, he's not ready to give it up. One day he will be; we are still early in the process. He still has a lot of anger and resentment toward me. If I expect anything from him, he's going to rebel, go into full PA mode and what will I have accomplished? NOTHING! By creating a safe environment I'm opening the door to knock down not only the walls he's created but the walls I've created for myself. He will listen to what I have to say and I will listen to what he has to say emilimiting those negative feelings. Once our LB's are at a level we are both comfortable with the rules of protection come into play. I will state my dislike for the keychain once again, and if he wants to protect me because he loves me again, he will get rid of it. It's a measure of how well I'm doing, I'm not forcing him or trying to control him into doing something that he does want to. He has to want to and when that happens I will love him even more for doing it! The key chain itself is just a material object which is not my goal. My goal is to gain respect, love, admiration, to have my soul mate, and best friend back.

LA- I can see that, it's amazing how a child can learn to sit up, crawl, and then walk!

Anyway, guys, I will probably be off line a few days. H got a call, D's in hosiptal, losing his mind, we have to go up, and see about a nursing home. FIL(56 yrs old?)has parkinson's and we're not sure if it's dementia or pychosis or what right now! we are leaving this afternoon to deal with the financial matters, and everything! Please send up a pray for Hubbie, he needs it more than me. I'm not close to his dad at all.

I'm sure that this will make H and I closer, we have a great way of sticking when things get rough.

"it's actually the idea behind the key chain. The fact that he's hiding it. He already knows that I'm not happy that he has it"
He has to want to and when that happens I will love him even more for doing it!

Good for you. We had this discussion before. Them doing it and not wanting to and it doesn't mean anything. I am glad you are looking at it that way.

Any way good luck with FIL.

Well, I'm still around. We made the six hour trip, BIL went the other two hours and stayed with FIL. It's a drug induces pshycosis, pain meds for his back. It's reversible and we're waiting to see what they're going to do about his back. Since we're here we're going to take care of transferring things into H's name so we don't have to worry about the state taking anything should he need to go into the nursing home in the future. We're still not sure what we're facing right now, but it looks better then we were informed. Of course, we were told the worse, so we dropped everything!

This is going to Hubbie and I a lot of time together. We don't really have a lot to do here, and the kids stay with the grandparents while we're here! Come to find out FIL is aggressive-aggressive and paranoid! MIL was the passive, if I understand right.

Well, I'll post more later when I get the chance. Take care and remember to be patience, if it's good it's worth waiting for!

Well, Hello, all! It's been a really peaceful day! Hubbie's less stressed out here, and I got to talk with MIL and find out a few things about when she was Med to FIL. It was not a good M, FIL cheated before the time they were Med. This was the cycle for 25 yrs., they D in 93', the yr. H and I started dating. I had heard a few stories, but FIL was a really horrible H. Paraniod all the time, still is, someone's out to get him, or steal from him. H really never talked much about FIL, I just knew he was not home alot. I thought he was always working but he was sneaking around. H and BIL found out in 92' that they have a half-S. She was lied to also. Amazing stories, all the secrets and the lies! FIL actually hated H at one time and blamed him for him having Parkinson's, but FIL didn't know any better according to H (long story). So, they weren't really close and it came to blows alot. FIL stopped when H got the best of him one time, then, H went to college (where we met).

Things have been really good with H and I. Before we left town he bought me to the store and bought me 3 shirts! I need to thank him again. I don't think I did yesterday! I need to reenforce that. We got to talk a little, but I'm not pushing the issue. No need, when the time's right it will come. I think patience and not expecting anything is the key. I've been at peace with myself since coming to realize this and it appears that H has been stepping up to the plate. Needless to say, I'm happy. We still have a lot of roads to clear but I have faith and hope that day by day we'll haul off the trash.

We're going on a month or five weeks of NC. I'm proud of him, especially without NC letter or call. Did I mention that I deleted OW numbers from his phone.LOL He wasn't happy, wasn't mad, but wasn't happy, said last weekend not to touch his phone again. I said ok and we dropped it. He didn't put them back in and H was right there when I deleted them. I know it wasn't a smart move on my part but it was a spur of the moment thing, and out of impulse I did it. I did apologize to him for it the next day and he's let me touch his phone since then. He's actually shown me TM when they come in.

Broken- I think we've stopped the time out, what do you think?

HUrting- man, I wish you could only understand about not expecting anything, I think you're world would be much happier. From what I see there's so much resentment and hurt in the way you write, I think it would do your heart some good. I feel you would be so much more peaceful.

LA- Thank you for helping me understand about expectations. I haven't got it down pat, but I'm working hard on it. You are also right about just the thought of H wanting to take my shopping for the boots. Just the idea that he wants to do stuff like that should me pleasing to me, it shows that he cares and loves me. I have no doubt in my mind that H doesn't love me and I do love him. We may be low in the LB right now, but given enough time we'll pull through. I'm not ready to give up learning from you yet or anyone else for that matter.

I have often thought since D-day that I should send OW flowers (of course I won't)because I wouldn't have waken up and realized what I had to do. I wouldn't be here with so many wonderful people, supporting me on good days and bad days! I lost my H along the way and I intend to find him again. I'm proud of who I've become in the last few months. I took a major stand for myself, I've stopped being afraid to say or do what I wanted, thought, or felt. I haven't worked all the kinks out, I still catch myself one in a while, but just that alone has been freedom. Yes, FREEDOM.

I'm not hiding who I am, and I'm trying to find my other fault or hang ups, because if it feels that good to correct one thing about myself, I can't wait to see what the next thing will do. I've only just begun to find me!

with great thanks--RE

Needing,

Glad things worked out well.

Sounds like you guys are on the right track.

Actually gonna take the four day weekend off of this board because quite frankly I am getting confused which causes my mind to explode.

I actually get the not expecting thing. I just don't know if I can do that. Radical honesty right. Not saying I deserve to expect anything I just do. Just like FWW expects things from me. Stubborn Italian alert. LOL.

I really don't know why I would stay in an M where I can't expect anything from my FWW. I don't get that concept.

To be honest the 180 has worked or her mom being here has worked. Things have really seemed different.

Remember I am three years into this thing now. A little progress would be nice. Right. Feel like I have been stuck in nuetral.

Not to mention I am smack dab in the middle of a bad month. This is the one and yet again I have had some pretty bad days. New days to feel like crap on so at least that is different.

I might as well do it here too.
Wanted to apologize to those trying to help me that I snapped at. Some pretty bad days in there and I kinda snapped a little. LOL.

Any way glad things are good for you and H.

Thank you very much for your post, NC...especially the part about liking who you are...and the flowers...hold that remembrance close to your heart...will stand you well as you go up and down...not nearly as much...and you love yourself more and more.

Here's a reminder of being true to yourself.

"I need to thank him again. I don't think I did yesterday! I need to reenforce that."

Expression of gratitude...which is sharing your feelings and thoughts...is open and honest. I believe when our intent is to reinforce something, then our intent is manipulation. Old habits die hard...and you're growing leaps and bounds...this isn't a bash. How do you feel when someone reminds you of something they told you, again and again...or tells you a story they recently told you again?

You showed your joy and gratitude...and said thank you. Try letting it stand for what it was...an O&H statement. If you want to share "I am still discovering how I feel love...attention and gifts, I think" that's about you and what you're discovering...

Intentions do not change how our actions look...they change our insides...staying true to yourself is important enough for me to point out a little way I used to self-sabotage...a lot of I'm sorries and thank yous...

I say thank you for a lot of things...odd things, even...I no longer say it more than once.

I'm delighted you spontaneously deleted OW from cell...and you got to experience going on...when it felt to you like too big of a risk...to be that honest...to say by doing, "This hurts. I'm not into that anymore." Or something like that. I remember my fear being huge...and doing just that, anyway...being terrified of his reaction, and then not so much...because it was me giving myself comfort, acknowledging and validating it...and that's when I began to own my own triggers.

"I took a major stand for myself, I've stopped being afraid to say or do what I wanted, thought, or felt." You may not stop being afraid...you did stop choosing your actions from fear. You rock.

"Yes, FREEDOM."

Doing the happy dance with ya, NC...yes, I am.

LA

Good Morning all! I was so happy to read your posts last night! I started telling Hubbie about you guys! I told him that I look at LA as my mentor, and HL and I started about the same time, and LH is a huge LongHorn Fan. I mentioned that he's been invited to post here.

H has a message for LH: H said that he's an LSU fan to the heart, we both are, but he was so excited and was pulling for your team over USC last year.

H also said last night that he's thought about reading SAA and HNHN, but it would have to do it on his own time. I told his that he would enjoy 2/3 (like LH said) of SAA. LA-you were right, just the idea that he's thought about reading them made me happy! Of course, several days I leave HNHN in the bathroom so he may have already picked it up and thumbed through it! WOW!

We had a great night after I read what you guys had to say. We cuddled in the bed and joked around. May heart was so light, I explained about expectation. One great big drive by last night.

Well, I have to go, H's ready to go! I'll post more later.

Needing,

Yes we started at about the same time I am just a little more thick headed then you. LOL

I am glad things are going well for you. Now you are the queen at changing your thread name maybe you should change your user name.

I suggest gettingmorecomfortable. I want to take hurting out of mine trying to figure out a good one for myself.

You have a good weekend. Not going to log on for the 4 day weekend unless there is biggy that comes up.

I doubt it though since MIL things are getting better.

Actually going to start looking into MC's next week and I may even try Harley if I can figure out how to scrape the money together.

HL- I hope that you have has a great weekend! I'm shocked that you are going to look for a MC or even try Harley. I think that a great move for you and you still have time to figure out what you want to do. I hope that you find a MC that familiar w/ PA personalities.

We have had a great few days. H apologized for the A again last night. H pulled a drive-by on me and at first I wasn't sure how to act, but all I could say was thank you. I was blank. H been very affectionate the pass few days. Saying he loves me, that he doesn't say it enough, etc.

We purchased another motorcycle, got H a Harley Sat. I've NEVER seen him so excited! He was shaking at the store. It's been his dream for awhile and it came true about nine months early. Of course, we had no intentions of purchasing, we went to look while we were in N. LA. Who would have thought we would have came home with one on the back of the truck. Well, that mean I get to learn how to drive the other, it's a yahama! I'm really nervous but looking forward to it. It's also giving H a positive attitude regarding work. He said that he'll have a reason to not resent the long hours and the management problems.

That's the amazing part, his attitude change, I was blown away when he said he was sorry again. He said it a few nights after D-day but he was so angry the past two month. Remember he wasn't going to "Kiss my a$$" and stuff like that. I'm taking everything in stride, LOL, trying! His even agreed about "no expecting", and realized he did it last night, said he was sorry he "thought I knew."

Well, I'll keep everyone posted. Take care, and I appreciate you all for helping me through the good times and the bad. We're on an up slope right now, and I'm thanking God for all the blessing that I have, including you guys!

Oh, i forgot to mention the keychain. H said when we got home last night, "okay, I don't want you to get mad, but this is the only keychain I had to put the new key on." I said I knew he still had it but I wasn't going to push the issue because he knows how I feel about it and I figure he'll deal with it in his time. Today, I suggested going get a HD keychain, because it's only befitting that he have a Harley davidson keychain for the Harley key. It's up to him what to do with the other one, I just can't look at it everyday he plays with the Harley. I can hope that he gets rid of it but I'm not going to expect it.

HL- I know you think that's not right but it's working for me! Not expecting has turned out to be a good thing, and we've made a lot of progress in my eyes!

LA- I owe that insight to you! Things are alot more peaceful!

Update on the keychain: H kept it, I didn't think he would get rid of it yet, so because I didn't expect anything different I'm not disappointed or anything.I'll keep you posted.

Thank you for the updates...please keep them coming!

On the keychain...your choice to see the reality that this is a time issue is fabulous...and I believe you want him to throw it away as a true symbol, not a forced one. Wow, NC...you really are proving to yourself how very much you can trust your own decisions. Building your own trust.

I did that with something my WH held onto...until he threw it away. At some point, of your own choosing, would it symbolically work for you to give a HD keychain in a little box, a present? You're directing your effort toward the most important areas...so it doesn't have to be now.

Maybe this symbol can remind you to stick to your O&H statements, along with reporting how you feel about your changes...until you don't need that reminder?

Maybe when he does toss it that will be the truth of him getting the fantasy of it all...and we can throw away fantasy stuff...easy...not real.

Would you consider putting your DDay info in your sigline? I asked my H about the keychain and he asked how long since DDay and I went...uhmmmm....uhhhh....I'm a little holiday slow today.

LA