Okay, I'll get right on it! Thanks, I appreciate the support! I did go to the Hd store yesterday and buy one, just not to have to see it everyday. I asked him what he did with the other, and he just picked it up. That's fine with me. H probably thinks of it as just a material thing, not a reminder of the worst time in our lives like I do.

D-day was 4/23/06 @ 3 am in the morning! WOW, huh? He was still drunk from the surprise B-day party I gave him! Great way to find out! Oh, well, that's the past, but I can tell you this, It'll be a while before I give him another surprise party! LOL Dont want anymore surprises like that again! LOL Don't think I could handle another! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

Can you believe that he apologized again? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> I was so in shock! Amazed, still am, for him to have thought that much to say that, and he didn't expect me to say anything back. That was wonderful! Still makes me happy and that wsa two days ago!

(Cheesing like a Little Kid at Christmas!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

LOL!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I love your energy and perspective, NC...I remembered as soon as you said the surprise party...just not the month and day...and the No Contact date would help...

Timelines aren't exact...another way for me to relate from my own...and others...

What do you mean he just picked it up?

His apologies matter...you taking note of, not DJing them...matters, also. Good job.

I know you'll be aware of the red flags for the future, so there won't be any "surprises".

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Now, tell me what you've got going on your recovery road...because I'm going blank about anything less than a week ago...me, not you...counseling, communication exercises, RC time (I know...HD time)...

And with your new safeness...what is going on inside your FWH with his father...listen for FWH's fears...I'm sure there are many.

LA

Thanks for the reassurance. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> I feel safer these days! Of course, OW found BF's phone number, not sure how, and called him. Bf asked how she got the number, and she said she had her ways. This was shocking! BF called H to ask him, then, BF asked to talk to me and told me the convo. b/t OW and him, then convo. b/t H and him. H said he would find out. After I got off the phone, H asked what was wrong so I told him what BF said and said my anxiety level was up. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> He said not to worry he wasn't going to call her but if he happen to see OW at store he would ask. He hasn't seen her since b/f NC date and he told me of both times (right after party).
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
I'm not sure what I have planned as for as recovery. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> SAA is in the bathroom for H to read at his leisure. I made sure to put it in there as soon as we got back since H mentioned it. No pressure but I know he'll read it in there, and he a way he doesn't had to be embrassed (uncomfortable really, you know in front of me).

I would like to getting H around to doing ENQ so I can have something other then the obvious to go by. As far as RC time, well, I'm gunho (SP, LOL) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> on learning to ride the other bike we have. Yamaha 650, prefect beginning bike, not to heavy! I started in the driveway with first gear and the brakes. I'll practice more today, I can already feel the wind in my hair! LOL H's excited for my to learn to, his excited about my wanting to learn like yesterday! LOL

I feel like I'm in a good place, not just with myself but with my M. I'm soooo much more happier! As far as the keychain, H just put it somewhere, probably in the house, out of my sight. That's find, I can hope that one day, He'll hand it to me or he'll trash it in front on me. I'd like to take a hammer to it! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" /> LOL Make me feel a whollllleeee lot better. Soon Enough!

Btw, FIL got out of the hospital an disappeared. I mean we couldn't find him. Probably at his GF's house but no one has the phone number to contact him and her house is maybe an hour and a half away. No sure exactly where that is either. We didn't get any paperwork done, so that's another trip up there! What a b!!!h! H said he not going to chase him down, FIL's a grown man!

I would love some suggestions for the road to recovery and would love to hear what your H thinks about my situaton. I didn't have a bad day yestrday but I was out of sorts with the keychain.

I do get some flashs in my mind of H and OW when we are involved but their not as often. Lord, do they knock my for a loop, but then again, I'm not sure what happened b/t H and OW so I'm sure I'm thinking the worst. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Can't wait to seewhat the future holds! LOL All smiles! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I was just on another post regarding a NC letter and I was wondering: Do you think that I have somehow failed in not getting H to do a NC letter or phone call? It does make me nervous that I don't have it, and my anxiety level is up after having read the other post. Melody Lane was really pushing for the letter saying that there's no room to negotiate a NC letter, basically. Is this something I should be concerned about now? I do worry from time to time that he will bump into her at the store or something unintentional. I don't worry about him calling or TMing OW.

I'm probably stressing to much about this but with the phone call from BF the other day and Hubbie saying what he did (don't worry about it), I'm feeling a little vunerable! Probably just my fear, I need to pick a time to discuss this with H, but first I would like a few thoughts from you guys.

Greatly appreciate you all!

I think I would ask him to write one, so it is perfectly clear to her that he is done and working on the marriage.

But it DOES seem like things are going well for you.

I agree with believer and you, NC...asking for a NC letter is important. Getting one, well, my mileage varied.

Your FWH's response about if he runs into OW somewhere, he'll ask her about BF's phone call...did I read that correctly?

Also, did he tell you about BF's call to him first, or did BF tell you later, afterward?

Transparency is really important...and no, I didn't have that in the first three months after DDay...or no contact. I say that to insure you do not take them as omens. Time mattered...he is demonstrating remorse...a NC letter is part of that remorse...and a commitment to report any contact, even via third-party...and any sightings...no approach for any reason...ever.

Does BF understand about no contact? Cutting off OW no matter what? Does everyone you exposed to understand this? I remember a poster here who had a BF who fed him information about his OW...which is contact. I believe it lengthens the A...even indirectly. Your choice.

You can share your feeling vulnerable, wanting to share with your FWH how important his decisions and choices are to your marriage and to you. Healthy boundaries to protect the marriage...which is what NC is all about...and you know it will be his choice...this is how you feel, what you think and believe...and you believe in his remorse...and you believe all contact, however brief, continues the A...so you fear starting over from zero if he does run into her somewhere (and your fear is heightened do to her contacting BF, possibly putting herself in his path), which is reasonable...not you being crazy...

You are doing really well...you are full of care and honesty...committed to staying honest. This is working on the marriage...takes being brave...true...aware. Big kudos and hugs...

LA

Thats when I got the "I love you but I'm not in love w/ you speech."! After I gave WH a surprise B-day party for his 40th birthday. I spent months planning it. I had dreams he would get up in front of everyone thank them for coming and announce that he wanted and divorce and was so glad everyone was there to share in the celebration of his new life. UUgghh!

My experience w/ NC letter. Last year after a very breif separation I asked WH to write a NC letter. At first he agreed but never did it. When I asked again he thought it was silly...a piece of paper didn't mean anything. He said there was NC but was very vague and wouldn't talk about it.
Later I found out internet contact continued.

This time in plan B I told him I would have no contact w/ him if he was still in contact w/OW in anyway. He called her and told her he wanted his family back and not to contact him. When he told me about it...it was his idea to put it in writing. I thanked him and told him it would make me feel better even if it seems silly. His response? "If it makes you feel better its not silly at all, I'm serious about rebuilding our family." So he wrote. I mailed it. I called OWH to let him know what was sent. WH knew about it.

A refusal to write NC letter is an indicator. Sure he could write it and not mean it...but for me it was a symbol that he was ready to close that door and align himself w/me.

It sounds like things are moving in the right direction. Have you asked him for NC letter?

Believer, LA, ChaCha- Thank you for responsing.

I have asked for a NC letter, I got no response the first time and a few times after that when I asked. Not a word was mentioned. I will be calling BF and explain that if OW (which we still don't know how she got his phone #), please don't call H and let him know. This situation has made me feel very unsafe and insecure.

H and I got into it last night, no yelling! I sensed that he was antsy all day, but it was raoning and I figured that he wanted to ride the bike and couldn't. I spend a lot of time here. Later, he said "Don't say anything about the amount of time I spend on the computer. You've been on that website all day."

He compared MB to his porn site! I was pissed and said so! I asked does me being on thiss website affect your self-esteem? He said "no"! I said I don't see how you can compare something that is helping our marriage to something that is hurting our marriage. We left that issue alone, he said he wasn't trying to start a fight.

I said "I had a few issues that I was trying to work out." He asked what they were and I explained about the keychain, the NC post that made me nervous, BF's phone call, and his response.

H got pissed, asked "Why it bothers me so much?" I responsed because it reminds me of the worst time in my life. H pulled the Keychain out of his pocket and threw it on the counter. I was shocked it was in his pocket, I can only guess that he felt it was safe there and I would throw it away. He said that if he had to hear about it all the time (which I haven't mention it outside of asking what he did with it after I gave him the HD one) then, I could have it. He walked off angry to the living room and called to me "Did you throw it away yet? Are you happy now? Does it make you feel better?" He said he sees it as a useful tool and that I may as well throw another keychain away that a friend of our gave him.

I remained calm, no yelling or raising my voice, and told him that I wanted him to give it to me because he wanted to, not out of anger. I said that it was a measure of how well we were doing and that was a trigger for me. He threw his head back! I told him that it made me uncomfortable because I always think about OW when I see it and I think the worst because he hasn't told me what's happened b/t the two of them. I explained that I was worried about the call for BF and the fact that he never mentioned it to me but said after I found out that he would handle it. I asked how he planned to handle it, ask her the next time he sees her, or just blow it off. H said he didn't know, maybe!

I explained that it bothers me everyday that he goes to that store. He asked if that was the reason I called him yesterday morning. I said "yes, and I fell back to sleep, so when I woke up it seemed like you were gone for an hour and a half. I didn't think you were at OW house but it did bother me."

I ended up giving the keychain back to him, which I feel is right, he knows the terms under which I want it. I told him as far as it's concerned I'm going back to my old position, which is he knows how I feel about it. (More so then before)
See this is teaching me patience, something I'm horrible at.

He knows that I was angry and hurt last night. I said very calmly "I'm very angry!" and I teared up at one point, but quickly got myself together.

There was alot more said but that's the just of the conversation. I wanted to avoid him last night, and not talk to him but I invited him to take a bath with me. He came in right as I was finishing up, we were pleasant to each other, but didn't really talk.

I woke up this morning, very angry, and not wanting to talk to him (he was already at work). This is the first time I've felt this way in a long time. I've been really good about letting thing so and seeing a new day but not today. My mood has changed from anger to hurt. I'm trying to keep in mind that I need to take that step forward but it's just not coming right now!

I'll write more later!

NC...

Good morning...

One thing I had to face up to a couple years ago...was not getting what I wanted, the way I wanted it, when I wanted it...

He was antagonistic...he threw the keychain on the counter...surrendering it...you gave it back...can you see where maybe this issue would have been finished had you nodded, taken the keychain from the counter and thrown it away right then?

You are learning patience...it can be an infuriating road...I know! So many here, me included, weren't patient...very reactive...not easy at all to learn...worth every moment of frustration, anger and pain, I believe...

And you, not doing your reactive dance...knowing your urge to withdraw and not doing it...

Wow.

LA

I'm more camler today then last night, but I still have that feeling of wanting to run in the other direction which I know that I can not do. I had in fact put the keychain in my pocket and was going to take it outside to slam with a hammer. I thought about throwing it away right then and there but wanting to slam it to pieces would have made me feel sooooo much better. I see how it would have been over, right then and there. When he first asked for it back, I said no, I wouldn't give it to him, but I felt it wouldn't be right for me if I didn't give it back.

I need him to surrender it to me because he wants to not out of anger. It's something I have to have but at the same time, if I find it again, I'm not sure I will be able to restain myself and not do away with it myself. I feel it's very important for me to wait. I keep saying it's a measure of how well we are doing but I'm not so sure today that's the reason. I'm wondering if this is the PA personality making me doubt myself again.

I even went as far as asking him if he felt like I was policing him, like he had a parole office, or if he felt like I was treating him like a child. He said "No."

There was something he said that I remarked "see I feel that's you're being childish!"

I'm not sure where to go from here, I think for the time being I'm going to do my best not to step backward and to see what he does.

Oh, another thing I wanted to mention, I have been telling him about some of the things said of my thread in hopes of getting him interested enought to participate. Does anyone's WS or BS participate with you and how did they get interested in the site?

I'm a wreck today, not a very safe day! He just called about lunch. I said I didn't know what we were doing that I would leave it up to him, and he says: "I TOLD YOU I DON'T MAKE THE RULES ANYMORE! No, come get me, we'll decide when you get here!"

What is that? Is he trying to piss me off, PA? No, going to do it! What? Oh, I hate him sometimes!

"Did you throw it away yet? Are you happy now? Does it make you feel better?"

NC,
These are normal reactions. I heard the same thing when I was going through this.

You know how much I like to tell stories so here is one. LOL.

OM gave youngest son a football. I asked FWW to throw it away. She didn't/wouldn't. One day youngest wants to play football. My stomach sank. He picked football OM gave him. I asked to play with different football. He said no. FWW comes home from store sees we are playing with football OM gave son. She got mad at me!!! Said something like oh you have to prove a point and play with that football. I said no YS would only play with this one.

I said YS can we play with another football again. He said no I want to play with this one.
That night she went in took football out and threw it away. And asked me " " Are you happy now? Does it make you feel better?""

It sounds like you did a great job not taking the bait.

If it isn't going to mean anything to you unless he does it on his own and you have told him that you are doing the right thing.

I can tell you there was/is a lot of resentment on my part because FWW did not do it on her own. Now my sitch is different though. My FWW refused to get rid of anything she wanted. That would make me controlling.

I finally started bringing all of the things I wanted gone to center stage. She had an outfit she bought with OM that she refused to get rid of. I kept asking her to wear it.

Is he trying to piss you off? Probably. But I like the fact you are not going to do it.

My mom used to say "I will always love you but sometimes I don't like you." So maybe you don't like him right now but I doubt you hate him.

My two cents.

HL- Thank you for posting, I'm glad that you keep coming back. You're right, I don't hate him. I know that a strong word to use but that's how intense I dislike him sometimes. I asked about the statement concerning the rules, he said that he was just joking. I'm sure that's not the truth, it's PA mode again. You know let's take a stab at NC today, she what she does.

It's really terrible to involve a child like that. Did FWW wear the outfit or get rid of it yet?

I'm a little calmer then before lunch, but I still have that want to take a step back. I feel disconnected from him, LB must be low? Or maybe that's what it takes to deal with him, I'm not sure.

What is it with Tuesdays in my M? I'm going to have to break that cycle, maybe move it to Wednesdays! LOL I just notice it was another Tuesday! Hum?

Thanks again for the support, everyone! I'm so grateful for you all!

Oh, I thought about changing my screenname to:

Di-menNtheRuff, but NC still fits and I'm not sure I want to confuse people.

NC,

I don't like that screen name took me 5 minutes to figure it out. I am so simple. LOL

Yes she did wear it. Now I would say that just like you I wanted her to do it on her own. However I got to the point of diminishing returns.

What that meant to me is that at a certain point even if she did get rid of it on her own it didn't mean anything to me. The reason being that IMHO there were to many times that the material object caused triggers for me. Those events offset any positive of her getting rid of them herself. In addiiton to that there were plenty of times we had problems or discussions where I felt she ignored my feelings about something that really hurt. IE the outfit or anything else that came from that trip.

When I hit the point of diminishing returns I was just not nice to her when I saw some of these triggers. I never took it out on her if it wasn't a trigger she didn't have anything to do with. But keeping an outfit that caused a trigger she could have helped!!

So on to progressive enforcement. One time she asked me how she looked in the outfit. Gauging my reaction. I said point blank "well did OM like it when you bought it? That seems to be the most important thing anyway." You seem to be having a very difficult time parting with your memories from that trip. I guess that outfit takes priority over my feelings so just wear it.

She said well if you are going to ruin the day I won't wear it. I said don't kid yourself my day is ruined already. You don't seem to mind reminding me of that trip. That reminds me of your A. That hurts!!! So I guess what it means is you don't mind hurting me.

Now she got rid of it that day asking if I was happy etc. Nope was the answer. Point of diminishing returns. Any positive of her getting rid of it eventually disapated.

On top of that there were still a whole bunch of triggers around. LOL.

Now remember the last set of memories for me took over 2 years to get rid of. Each one was a discussion(more like argument) about how I was crazy for feeling that way.

You are earlier in the process and back when I was where you were I had more tolerance then I have now. But there was barely ever a time where her actions took affect until after the point of diminishing returns.

So for you hang in there. REalize the PA behavior and stay the course. My course is different than yours and quite frankly I don't know how it is working anymore.

It reared its ugly head again this weekend several times and I just don't know if I have the energy to deal with it.

Takes a lot of work and patience.

Its funny how these little objects can be such BIG triggers. OW was a family friend. Just before D-Day she had the nerve to get me a birthday present. I know she went to alot of trouble...as soon as I got home I threw it in the trash. Over time as I was cleaning I'd come across little things she gave me, the kids and WH. Somehow they just seem to get broken...even the little air plant that I had gotten to bloom. I didn't realize she had a "twin" plant until one day when she was over talking about how amazing the plant was. WH got up ran to get the plant to show her the bloom. You know after that day I found that plant didn't do well if you water it with mouthwash...or windex...409...and especially not bleach!!!

WH didn't/doesn't get why these things would be a trigger for me...maybe they don't mean that much to him. One thing I took down but did not throw away was a hand carved sign that OWH made for WH....I wonder if he would like to see that hanging on the wall. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I can tell you both this...I will do my best to continue to fight for my rights, needs, and wants... I'm determined to be heard because in the past I didn't speak up or I spoke only to find that it was barely audiendible.

I think that it's wierd that H looks at it "as a useful tool," where I see H having SF with OW, or them talking and laughing and having a great time sitting on the sofa or some other situation. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> If it's such a useful tool, I'll go out an buy him a dozen just to throw away that one. I'll take away his excuse of "you never know when you're going to need one." He//, I'll put a few in the truck, in the car, in the garage, in the house, and even send some to work with him if that's what it takes. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

ChaCha- I love the little plant story! RMFAO! Bleach, who would have thought it wasn't good for plants! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" /> How do you live with her in your life, or is she, being a friend of the family? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

One thing I've questioned with the PA behavior, if I remain calm, and not yell (body language included) but say I'm angry does that mean the PA has still won?

OH, I got "The Five Languages of Love" today! I read a few pages and I'm really excited about it. I think I'm going to enjoy this book! The book itself has change my attitude today! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I've even thought of a way to explain LB to Hubbie! Why not with the gas tank on a motorcycle? Or the gas tank gauge, man stuff?

Patience is a hard thing to learn and I can't seem to find the positives to pushing on with Plan A. I keep thinking 180, 180, but I know that's not a good thing right now to do. Like you said HL, we're still early in the process. I just hate the fact that everytime my LB gets a little, I get kicked in the teeth, and that line turns red or sit there not feeling one way or the other. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/teary.gif" alt="" />

And I can't imagine getting a NC letter from a stubborn mule, you know it's his what, oh, male pride! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> I was wondering this morning if I can handle living with a man who hides things from you all the time. H&O is my first EN.

NC,

Well that is exactly what I was talking about when it comes to deminishing returns. LOL.

For me the first time I asked her to get rid of something if she didn't that was the point of diminishing returns.

She had the opportunity to get rid of it and didn't. Over time it kept bothering me and I know she could see I was getting angry she would relent and get rid of it.

In me there was no great sense of joy that she did it. It was actually the opposite. I would think "it's about darn time you did the right thing."

Now if I would have demanded she rid the home of everything at least the damage that was done wouldn't be a factor today. I like Cha Cha's way though sounded good.

Don't ask me about PA behavior I am getting very frustrated by my FWW's reversion back to this again. Happened yesterday and I really didn't like it. I did my part though and that's all I can do.

As far as the LB is concerned the gas tank analogy would be good. Not going to be able to get on and have a nice ride unless you have gas in the tank.

Might want to make sure you do general maintence too because if you don't the warranty will become void. Oil changes, etc.

LA- You are my woman! you were so right, he was antagonistic! Everytime I tried to walk back into the kitchen, he would say something else which I couldn't hear. So, I would walk back in there and ask what he said. I did this like five or six times, final I said "BTW, I would say things behind your back, if I have something to say I'll say it to your face." This was just another PA game to see "how many times can I make her walk back in here." Next time, I'm not going to be so curious about what he said and just leave it alone, in addition to what I'm doing already! Act like I didn't hear it and he'll be the one hanging not me.

I think he's still trying to get me to working on me. First, it was throw away the books, and last night it was "on website too much." Is that a DJ? It's like it's a threat to him?

Wow...I forgot about the mumbling...the talking to the tv/radio...

Hey, my H has stopped mumbling to himself when I leave the room...after nearly 20 years! Ohmygosh...thank you, NC...I forgot...and you will...I promise!

HL, NC...anybody...does your spouse talk to the tv when you leave the room or are walking back into it...then shut up? I have to say, he did this on our third date...I thought it was quirky.

The mumbling was a subtle control factor...my not hearing...all me...all the time...I thought I'd lost my hearing! He would be very irritated when he had to repeat himself...if he would...and you know what? I don't like repeating myself, either...so I blew that off, as well...had to be my hearing.

This doesn't happen anymore...and if we are speaking from different rooms, he'll actually say, "Hang on...I want to hear you." Wow.

LOL

As for his present behavior...you guys are back in Conflict...you are choosing to be there...so is he...

I wanted to point out something, NC...about the keychain...beware your own P/A behaviors...we all have them...when he said "Fine!" and threw the keychain on the counter, he was choosing to do that...you could have taken him at his choice. Instead, you ended up wrestling with it because you wanted what you wanted, the way you wanted it...can you see this not as a bash, but as a way of not getting your goal, but the way to get it?

I lived that moment with you, NC...H storming around saying, "What? What do you want me to do with it?" And I said, "Throw it away." And he stopped, holding the darn thing, and said something about that not being right. I didn't say anything...like you, no body language betrayal, stockstill, opened eyed...and he talked it through outloud...and finally threw it away. Had he handed it to me, I would have. My goal was my goal...all remnants gone...this was a piece he tucked away in his wayward room, still in plain sight...

Do you know what he did two months later on his own? He tore out all his journal entries, which were love letters to her, and not only threw them away while I was at work, but put them directly into the garbage cans outside...

Was he cured of his P/A back then? No...but he was getting the fantasy part, finding his own embarrassment from warped thinking...and acted on it...

I was a measurer, a judge-fiend, and a symbol addict...I DJ'd my H all the time, attributing his intentions, motives, actions...not taking care to state how I felt, what I thought or believed...just crucified myself with sick beliefs, picked the most harmful, to make sure I self-punished as well as punished.

Until I understood I was sabotaging my own goals, wanting what I wanted, when and in the emotion I wanted them (not angry...ring a bell), then I couldn't get what I wanted...and that made it his fault.

We're sneaky humans, too...I don't know if it comes from living years with a P/A which gives us associative permission to do it also, or if we were relieved to find someone to do the rejection/guilt dance enough to participate on both sides...

I do know that before I met my H, I was very much a self-deceiver, disrespecter...he didn't make me that way...and I was a rager, in my own way, out of sight, too.

Made for each other takes on new meaning.

You were reactive to your H's mumbling...not active. You automatically re-entered that kitchen again and again...are you competitive? That was my hook...I wanted to win...and you know why? So I would be more attractive to my H...which wasn't attractive at all...considering my winning made him lose...and winning made him kinder.

You know how I got H to stop pushing my buttons? I moved the buttons.

LA