The "NC" letter being sent, the OW freaking out and this all hopefully coming to an end once and for all. That is what I mean by closure! I want to focus on my marriage. Not be scared or feel vulnerable all the time. Have you told him that?

There is no one that can watch the boys for you guys? You really need to get a way. Not to just talk though but to have "FUN"! Do you remember fun? We had forgotten how much fun we had together until we left for a few days.
7142

I can get a sitter for an hours or a few, maybe even a night, but for the weekend, no! IL's are in NY this week, not sure and don't really want to ask the neighbors! My parents, both sets live out of town, along with my S and B. The family I do have here, we really don't talk to! This has always been a stuggle for is.

I plan to talk to him! I just need to put it out there and talk to him calmly. I've got to get it out of my head that he's going to go into PA mode. It's holding me back!

Hey rinderella,

It sure does sound like we are on the same path right now.
I know I have some conflict avoidence issues myself so that just makes this whole withdrawal thing even harder.

I am on this address at night only.

I don't want to jack your thread talking about my self so write me if you have time or just need to vent and or chat!

Stay strong!

Blind

I've got it and will be emailng you shortly! Thank you, I've done a lot of thinking on the way to pck up the kids and home. I just have to face my fear and I've thought of a plan!

Hi, Rin,

You can fear WH going PA behaviors...and act, anyway. They are not about you. Until you really get that, you will fear greatly--and each time you open your mouth, without LBs, with ownership, you will fear less.

Working on DJs helps a lot...and yes, having a sitter for one hour a night for a walk...no R talk...after it has cooled down...helps....for two hours while you guys go out to see the sunset...helps...and you can plan a weekend away for August...when you have coverage...and a no contact letter.

This isn't a demand...it is you stating your goal, what you're willing to do to save your marriage, stating your feelings and fears...and affirming that you will trust him someday, accept his efforts, when you know you are safe with him and his commitment, through no contact, recommitment and transparency. That today is today...and you choose to love him.

Rest is critical here...DJs and AOs happen when you are physically fatigued and emotionally vulnerable...can you try relaxation cd's set on loop at night? A calm, reassuring voice throughout your sleep, telling you of God's design or even, nature sounds?

I didn't have adult sleep walking...I did as a child...and I remember the episodes...even the dreams...might try stating to yourself...my WH is not attacking me...he cannot erase or negate me...he is attacking the marriage by breaking contact. Separate in your head what is happening...be reassuring to self and know you are in control of you...Anger can feel inside (our inner children) like annihilation...and it isn't. Outside anger is outside...not a great mantra, but useful, maybe?

Have you considered calling OW by her last name, as Orchid or Pep suggest? When WH said that OW thought your neighbor had a crush on him, too, say "I value your opinion and my own. I will not listen to OW's last name's opinions as they are from someone who wanted to break up our family."

I played that game of listening to my WH talk about OW...and I had near panic attacks...such rage...which I breathed through. If I could go back, I wouldn't do that to myself...and I stopped doing it after NC was established. I used his honesty as self-punishment and I wouldn't, in hindsight, do that again. Respectfully, "If you want to talk about OW's last name as a person, I must ask you not to--because she is and will continue to be a fantasy attacking our marriage. I believe I will be able to listen to what you have to say about her if we get to six months with unbroken no contact. From what I've read, and transparency, I will be able to deal better then; though I know I will not deal with her opinions, ever. They are irrelevant."

Way too long...I know. My H wants you to know that your WH hasn't gotten she's a fantasy...and it takes time...and he said, "You know, I really didn't want to let OW go...and I'm ashamed because it wasn't about letting her go, it was not wanting to give up my own feelings." Can I say, that even after a year and half...there's an ouch in there, inside me? Takes a lot of time to get those feelings back, within the marriage, safe and falling in love, because the A is a love buster...continues to love bust...smaller and smaller...by existing...and I do believe, no doubt, he won't want to give up the feelings he has in our marriage, the more we work on ourselves, the P/A behaviors, trust and intimacy...

Gets better, Rin...and remember...you have the right to terminate your marriage...you can commit to staying and rebuilding; or you can leave now, you know...your right. I didn't feel I had that right...I don't preach on exercising it because I needed redemption...please don't let me step over that with you...

I do know that there is great self-respect in fighting for your marriage.

LA

I didn't een get to read your post yet LA! The neighbor came over and kept telling me my M was ending and about all the arguing H and I have been doing! I said what arguing? Needless to say, S kept at it, I warned her that she was making me mad and I was fixing to kick her out of my house. SHe said a few more statements about my M, and I told her to get out of "my F***ing House!" Opened the door, said I will be her friend tomorrow but right now I couldn't.

Okay, she the one that came over, she wasn't invited! SHe walks into the living room aftr one of the kids let her in, and says "We need to talk!" She sit on the loveseat with her arms folded and her leg bobbing away. I should have known right then and there! She didn't hear a word I said, and all she kept saying was all H and I do is argue. We've "argued" twice maybe three times, I kept saying we're fine. SHe kept telling me I wanted a D. SHe didn't even hear MC or IC months ago! From this afternoon's conversation, I believe that I wouldn't be having some of the problems I'm having/had with my H. I think she been feeding him misinformation longer then D-day! I've said in the past that I thought she was in love with H, and I now think that she had been trying to break us up.

I may feel differently later but I'm pissed! I called H at work, balling my eyes out, telling him what she was saying! Then, she called while I was on the phone with him. H said he would talk to her H when he got home and asked if I could try to calm down. H said she was wrong for telling me what I felt and didn't.

I'll write more later!

HI, I'm back, H came home and asked me my side of the story. She says that I'm blaming her for the problems that H and I are having I said I wasn't blaming her. I said H choose his actions, he's the one that decided to go to OW's. And, basically my side is she didn't hear a word I said. I tried to talk to her about the resentment I held until yesterday, explaining that I couldn't expect her and her H to do blah blah blah (like we talked about because it was the truth)...

After all has been said and done...that was worse then trying to hold a conversation with H before I moved the buttons...not she's the victim because I blame her. Nope! Absolutely F*****G amazing! I didn't need this...I even thanked her for coming over during the conversation because i needed to talk to her. I explained that the reason I hadn't been to their house or the other neighbors is because my M has been the only thing on my mind and I felt like that's all I would talk about. That I didn't want them or the others to feel like they were in the middle of us...she didn't hear any of that either...just me blaming her. At one point, I felt myself about to explode and I contained myself (thinking I can't do this...we have to live next door to each other or something like that). I held my tongue.

SHe tried to tell me that H and I shouldn't have bought the HD and that we should have waited months. She even asked when H's B-day was and counted the months since D-day! She made it sound like H bad mouthed me and I know that's not the truth. Even during the A, he would tell everyone how great I was, and that he couldn't have picked better. That's one of the reason people were so shocked.

Well, if she set out to hurt me, I let her do it! I was arguing with her, trying to tell her that H and I are going to be find, we jut had a few things that need to be worked out. That's what he said tonight too. I think his friendship with them is going to change too.

We were like family, us and the other two houses, but post D-day, I withdrew and didn't talk to either households very much. I was caught up in myself, shocked, wondering what to do next. I turned to myself for comfort, then, that horrible one day to her, then I found MBers.

She was trying to tell me what I should have (beat OW and H multiple times), communicate with him (like I'm not), Don't hold in anger, and blah blah...BUT, she only said this after I told her what I was trying to do. Now, there was a period in time where I didn't like going to her house because all her H and he did was fight and DJ's (out the @ss)! Dyfunction is an incorrect description but yet she's telling me what we need to do! I should have laughed in her face. I'm still so angry!

H asked me at one point what I was thinking about and I said so many things but I did see how you (generally speaking) could be friends with someone who doesn't listen to what you are saying. I said I would be friends with her tomorrow and let today blend into the past but I don't know right now!

I know she can keep her happy @ss nose out of my M, and not get that God awefull advice (what she called advice) to herself. ANd she can stay her happy @ss across he road, because I outgrew HS bullsh** a long time ago! Oh, she so worried about us because we argue all the time. I wasted my time and energy today. That will not happen again!

I'm definitely taking a few steps back with our "friendship," like I said before with friends like that, who needs enemies! I really didn't need anything else right now!

Oh, she even had the nerve to ask if I was cheating on H? What gave her that right? I did let her know that I'm not going to do that, I'm not stooping to that level! It's almost like she was trying to get inform to go back and tell H!


AAARRRGGG! Okay, I'm going to stop and focus on me, I'm still pissed! I don't think this can be repaired. Right now, it's not worth my energy!

Ugh, Rin.
Sounds really upsetting.

I need to go back a little in your thread and catch up to understand better. I'll do that.

In the meantime,
Breathe, try to focus on what's yours, what's important and what you can control. The rest is not yours to worry about.

((((((hugs))))))

-AmI

Hi Rin,
I know how hard it is to defend your decisions to people who just can't understand why you are doing what you are doing.

My family thinks I am nuts for trying to save my relationship.

Instead of letting peoples opinions drive you crazy just use them to increase your strength and put all of that energy into your Plan A.

Blind

Rin,

How would listen and repeat have worked, instead?

When you choose what level you want this relationship to be with your neighbors, then you hold yourself to that level...

DJing her whys, intent, motivations...is betraying yourself. Listen and repeat...and ask...inform. How you act determines how you feel about yourself...not how she acts, what she says or believes...that's her stuff.

Center, Rin...Reactive Rin is a spinner...Today's Rin has tools, like Blind said...knows more, reacts less...acts more.

Choices, Rin. Stay in your power.

One thing I had to learn was to find out why, inside myself, I was reacting so strongly BEFORE I shared what I felt with my H...because this was mine...not his...if my feeling loved depended on his reaction, then we would have continued a reactive marriage, both being filled up from the outside...

LA

Please let me know if you feel that I should do someting different, but seeing that (will call the neighbor HB) HB does not listen to what I have to say or anyone (That is a Fact), I'm choosing to write a letter. I would appreciate your thoughts and ideas, I do not want to come off as blaming, which she sees me doing, I want to be positive, and I need to write it in a way that we will all be able to maintain a friendship in the future for the sake the kids. Our kids are all about the same age, in the same grade, go to the same religion classes, and so forth.

After I have wrote the letter and have gotten the approval of you guys, I plan to have H read it, because I want to do POJA with him on this. Then, I will mail it. I feel like I need to do this quickly. So, what follows is right off the top of my head:
(Please keep in mind that she is a stay at home mom of five kids, ranging from 9 to 2 yrs. old, with barely a GET education. SHe often makes references to how peopl treat her like she's stupid, but that is her perceptive, my H nor I have ever seen anyone do this other than her H. I am sure she has PA behaviors, and from what I see her M is more dysfunctional then mine could ever be. Of course, that's my opinion.)

Dear HB,

Since, I feel like you do not really listen to me when I speak; I am writing because I feel that you and I need to resolve a few things.

First, I am not holding you responsible for any part of my M. Only my H and I are responsible for our M, therefore, you had nothing to do with the choices, good or bad, that we have made. I said this to you yesterday, although, I don't feel like you heard me.

Second, I said that I was holding resentment against you and your H for going to my H with information or lack of correct information. I was having a bad day and my talking to you that day about my plans, I put you (and your H) in a bad position, that's my fault. I should not have expected you to protect me and that's find. I don't hold that resentment anymore, as I told you yesterday. It wasn't your fault, you two were doing what you thought was best at the time.

Third, I have not been going over there for several reasons. The first being the reason above, I needed to work on that myself. Next, I feel that because my M is the foremost thing on my mind, that I could not go over and not talk about my M, same thing with the other neighbors. I felt that this would put you or whoever I chose to talk to in the middle, and that is unfair to you, your H, or the neighbors next door. If I did speak about our situation, then, you (or anyone else) would have an opinion about our M. I do not intend to try to hurt your feeling, but your opinion, or someone else, does not matter, this is our M and we will be the one's do deal with it as we see fit. There's no need to create more confusion by involving other people.

As for yesterday, arguement, and I do consider it an arguement, because I heard you tell me time and time again, that this is what I needed to do, that I was wrong to feel think, or belief what I did. When you tell people they are wrong about this, it's abusive, verbally and emotional. I kicked you out of my house because of this abuse. No one deserves to be treated that why and I refuse to let you do that to me. Repeatedly, I hear you tell me that I wanted a D, I have never said that I wanted a D. I had some choices to make after D-day, and I chose to fight for my M, any interfence from you at this point is not needed. I heard you say over and over again that H and I argue all the time, we don't. We have a few things that need to be worked out and we will do this on our own.

I do want to remind friends with you. I also what to thank you from coming over yesterday, even though, I thought your body language and tone of voice was on the defensive from the time you walked into my house. I will not hold any resentment or anger toward you or your H. I would love to enjoy dinner, BBques, B-days, etc. in the future. So, I'm asking that you do not take it personal if I choose not to talk to you right now. H and I are dealing with the situation and are getting better day by day. We both want to remind M, and feel that we will survive this bump in the road. We are both committed to our M and making it work.

Should you want to talk about this in the future, I will request that other parties be involved. I will not speak to you in private because I want to heard correctly. I do not want to be disrespected or judged, especially in my own house, which I felt happened yesterday.

Once again, I am not blaming you for anything, and we can remain friends, but I will not allow you to create a situation like yesterday again.

Sincerely your,

Rin

I would like H to sign it to so that she knows he has read and approved it.

OKay, guys, let me have it! LOL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Thank you for your posts. I hope that I am moving in the right direction with this letter. I am trying to enforce my boundaries, own my own, and not dismiss her "own." I thought I did a very good job of listening and repeating yesterday.

I guess even though I was extremely pissed off, I still had no right to DJ her here. I was merely venting!

I look forward to quick responses, I really would like to have the letter done by lunch so that H can approval, but if I can't it will just have to wait. I don't feel like this needs to drag on, I want closure for myself today or tomorrow!

What is the purpose of the letter? Are you wanting to apologize? Continue the argument? Get the last word in?

I'm sorry to be blunt, but it sounds so argumentative. If you already said things over and over, then she heard them. She just didn't want to accept them, and no amount of letter writing will make her do that. She isn't going to listen to this letter anymore than she listened to you in person.

If you just want her to mind her own business for a while, but still keep a polite relationship, then I would cut out a lot of the detail.

"Dear neighbor. Thank you for coming over yesterday and expressing your concerns. H and I are concentrating on improving our marriage right now. I'm sure you can understand that we will need some privacy and time to ourselves to do that. I hope that you and I can remain on friendly terms and continue to support our childrens' relationships with each other. Thank you for respecting our request for privacy. Sincerely, 'Rella."


Don't respond to her baiting, don't leave an argument open, don't give her anything else to argue with. And definitely don't give her more amunition to try to beat you up with.

-AmI.

BTW ... I think she's just a nosy nag (disrespectful judgement, I know) who thinks she can save the world by telling everyone how to handle their problems. You will be totally wrong and misguided unless you agree with her, and she won't hear a word you say until it's "Yes, you're SOOO right and wise!"

Not someone worth arguing with.

I'm sorry you've had to deal with her, too, when you have enough other things on your plate.

How are things going with you and H recently? Are you trying that honesty assignment thing?

-AmI.

I want to set up some boundaries, I want to end this now. I want to be able to have the family get togethers the way we use to before d-day. yesterday, I thought that just remaining polite would be enough for the future. I do not intend to apologize nor to I want one from her and I sure do not need the last word. I would like to resolve the issues between us, and keep her nosey @ss out of but business. She was very supportive with exposure, chewed H out, but she is creating more problems now. I want that to stop!

I loved your reply. I hope that the final letter sound so great!

"I want to set up some boundaries, I want to end this now. I want to be able to have the family get togethers the way we use to before d-day. I would like to resolve the issues between us, and keep her nosey @ss out of but business."

Oh, this is so much better! Keep your points just to these pieces, then. Of course you'll make them sound nicer. There's just no need to re-hash the argument.

What boundaries do you want to establish?
How often do you want to get together with them? What do you envision these get-togethers looking like?
If you want to be friends, what kind of friendship do you want to have with her?

Rin,

I agree with Amiok! Go with what they wrote and let the rest go. I am not responding to my situation except for here. Focus on what is important!

I will check back with you later.

oKay, Second draft:

Dear HB,

Thank you for coming over yesterday and expressing your concerns. H and I are concentrating on improving our marriage right now. I want to set up some boundaries. I want to end this now. I want to be able to have the family get togethers the way we use to. I would like to resolve the issues between us.

First, I am not holding you responsible for any part of our marriage. Only H and I are responsible for our marriage, therefore, you had nothing to do with the choices, good or bad, that we have made.

I have not been going over there because I’m sure you can understand that we need some privacy and time to ourselves to resolve our issues. We both want to remain married, and feel that we will survive this bump in the road. We are both committed to our marriage and making it work and love each other more and more as the days go by.

As for yesterday, it’s the past! I will not talk to you or anyone else regarding our marriage. Should I slip up, I expect you to listen, not offer advice or your opinion.

Should you feel the need to talk about this more, I will request that our husbands be involved. Today is a new day and I will not let the past effect our relationship in the future.

Once again, I am not blaming you for anything, and I’m certain, we can remain friends.

Sincerely,

Rin


thanks for your support!

Rin,

Where has rush gotten you in your life? Your urge for closure is yours...your actions are your choices.

You say she doesn't listen to you...you don't believe she hears you...and your answer was the letter.

Would you consider that if you believe you won't be heard by her...then any action to take, verbally or written, is to MAKE her hear you, which is not in your control?

You say you want the relationship back to where it was pre-DDay...would you consider this is wishfulness...your suspicions that she wants to break up your marriage, has a fantasy in her head about your H--that would be pre-DDay, too, wouldn't it?

Boundaries..."Do not come in my house unless I invite you or let you in."

That's a boundary. What is more important, is what reasonable enforcements you have for the boundary.

"I will not listen nor speak of my marriage with you. That topic will be off limits and I will terminate any conversation or visit if that boundary is crossed."

Can you see how you would have to do that for you, too? We can't have boundaries that do not match our standards...we will be full of conflict if we attempt to enforce something that we already do ourselves.

Personal boundaries is where we start...and they must be made with conscious knowledge that they do NOT protect...they do not stop us from feeling pain, facing conflict...they are statements about us, for us...and up to us to understand they are our guides to living, not protection from others. Others will cross them...our parts are establishing the lines and enforcements...and holding ourselves to them, as well.

Now to that killer open and honest Rin...truly, one of your strengths...decide in your adult experience where you want this neighbor relationship...what degree of relationship...can't be pre-DDay because there was no respect, lots of expectations and intimacy, messy with self-deception and lying by omission, wasn't there?

"I believe you have inappropriate fondness for my H."

Have you said that?

"I do not feel heard or understood. I believe that is vital to any friendship I commit to."

Amp up to your truth, Rin...find those true statements in you and write THOSE down...look at them...in order to be honest with others, we must be with ourselves...

Can you see this as not conflict to be resolved, but growth to be understood?

When we attempt to control our feelings from our actions, like closure, which includes what we cannot control, then we are teaching selves that feeling betrayed, angry, unheard, discounted, manipulated is wrong...instead of telling self, "Hey, thanks for the information...I'm on it!"

Feelings want to be understood...not closed. Feelings are temporary in and of themselves...once the information from the belief you have is delivered, they are done for right then...communication achieved.

What I found I did was take my feelings and look at what I'm doing to me...in the way I'm handling conflict...am I hearing myself? Am I trying to manipulate my feelings? Am I angry because I believe I shouldn't be treated this way, have earned better treatment, or am I crossing my own boundaries and standards? Am I discounting my self? Betraying myself?

All that internal stuff is not in place of taking action...it is in preparation for choosing what action I take...and until I do this, and my feelings leave because they delivered...then I can act to my code, not react to my feelings.

You've taken some blows this past week...emotionally and mentally...this is no bash or me saying "you're doing this wrong." This is me, to my friend, saying, "Center again." You were getting the center to self, before...gave you a high...maybe made the two blows you sustained feel like you fell harder, failed in some way...and you didn't.

You're living, Rin. First, find your beliefs...write those down. Don't jump to solutions before you fully understand if there is a problem...isolate and identify it...and know your power. Don't step over it...we've done that way too long, don't you think?

LA