Rinderella,

One thing about reading. I was a sales manager for a long time. One time I went to a sales seminar and the guy said something that really opened my eyes and ears.

He said instead of reading 5 sales books read one sales book 5 times.

There is too much information to possibly absorb and implement just reading it once.

Find the area causing you the most problems and just read that book and PRACTICE the techniques for 21 days. That is the time it takes to break a bad habit or implement a good habit.

IMHO you are overloading yourself right now. Find the one area of your self that may be the greatest problem in your M. Embrace the book that will help you through it. Practice that technique for 21 days and see if it gives you some of the results you are looking for.

I do highly recomend Breathing though. It is usually very good for you. The alternative sucks.

I got you you on that one! I'll make a point to slow back down, one day at a time!

You sure about that breathing thing? LOL :::exhaled:::

And you're right, I'm trying to do to much again, overloading myself, impatience are getting me! I see more of my villagers! :::squinting eyes:::

LA-Where's the 2x4? :::hands up:::

Rinderella,

One more thing you cannot push or pull your H along for the ride.

He has to want to walk next to you. If you see him falling behind a little just stop and wait for him to catch up.

Other wise you might look back and see he is not there. Take a few steps look over and see if he is still there. If not be still and wait.

Oh, HL, what I got upset about was I know he was in PA mode today, and he was trying to make me feel guilty, total manipulation! I never saw that before, and I wonder how I lived with it for so many years! Thinking it was all my fault, I had done something wrong! I wasn't being a good enough wife. I read caretaker behavior, which I found was a form of controlling behavior. That's not me at all. I thought caretaker was something different.

I''m sure you can understand this...if I don't do what needs to be done around here, it won't get done...I waited almost a year for two screws in the dishwasher! But he would go across the street and help the N out! He says I didn't ask, well, I did several times, until there was an arguement about him not helping me. I said I needed him just as bad as the N did, more so because I was his wife. I got a story about how he doesn't have to worry about me because I can take care of myself, she can't, H is offshore for 2 weeks at a time, has 5 kids, blah blah blah. Whatever my needs came last!

I don't know how you, LA and the rest have done it! I think the biggest problem is the PA stuff. I've thought all afternoon and evening about it.

I was really happy when he got a call from a friend to go ride. I think it's the first time he's done something without me in months. At first he just said he was going, I didn't say a word, then he came out of the house and asked if I minded. I said no, not at all, and I appreciate you asking! H just called a few minutes ago, said where he was and he would be on his way home. Said he didn't want me to worry, I was in bed asleep. A break from what I would have done, waited on him.

I feel ashamed for getting all worked up because of him. I let it get to me, I know I'm not controlling. I know what he says it's true! bOy, did I back peddle! I guess I changed my dance so he changed his. Doesn't matter! With every opportunity I'm getting to learn the behavior!

I'm just in shock I guess, it's the first day that I knew instantly what he was trying to do. This is not a withdrawal thing, head in the fog thing, he's always been like this. And me constantly wondering if I was the one going crazy! It's always been about him, his control, him being selfish, his mood, him, him, him...

This is why I wonder if I can go on...I'm Very angry about everything. I'm angry with him, I'm hurt, and support, true love, and remorse doesn't seem like an option.

How could someone be so cold-hearted and other times be so wonderful? Never thought I would be abused in my adult years!

I'm just shocked today! Tomorrow will be better, I have a goal for tomorrow! Just be...be happy...be calm...just be!

Thanks again everyone

Rin,

Just wanted to stop in and say hi. You did a lot of good work in the "owning" thread and a lot of what you said helped me. I can certainly identify with your perfectionism tendencies!

I am learning to be at peace with myself and my situation. I have learned that peace doesn't necessarily mean that I will be without sadness or uncertainty. I am learning to embrace those things as integral parts of the journey.

Sending a hug your way, Rin.

((((lizzie))))

Thank you so much for the words of encouragement! Everyone has been great! As for the owning thread, I have been thinking about more little villagers. I plan to make a list, I have a better idead of why their it me.

I had found that inner peace and had some really great days! Thanks for sharing that peace doesn't doesn't necessarily mean that I will be without sadness or uncertainty. I never looked at it the way and I like your perceptive. I think I need to keep that in mind.

HL- I read on manipulation last night, and the more I read the most mad I got. I never realized what extent people go to manipulate others. I even read on the caretaker behavior. I was thinking that it was me but it's not. H does have the behavior, another controlling aspect of him. He would do things for the N because she was so incompetent to do it for sheself, and he was worried that she would screw things up or hurt herself. He was over there every day, he even put up new paneling in her kitchen. He's never done that at out house, matter of fact, I ordered new light fixtures for the living room. I'm perfectly capable of putting them up by myself, but H told me to wait. It's over a week now, question is: how long to I wait? I guess I really need to post on the PA thread, since I feel that it is the biggest problem in my M.

I guess I need to concentrate on learning the behavior inside and out, a pretty large task, just for my sanity alone!

I have to apologize to you all for my impatience! Not only is it rough on me, but you guys too! I promise to try to be better in the future. Remember to take one day at a time. I will be adding that to my list of little villages. If I had to put them in order of which effected me the most...that one would be at the top of the list.

LA-I understand what you talk about now, about being wonderful, amazing, humans. I didn't know what that meant before and why you spoke of it, but I know now! We're fragile, prong to mistake, side-stepping, wonderous, awesome creatures by God's design! Thank you for being an awesome human being, willing to share yourself day in an day out with me and others! I, too, am blessed just to have you in my life! Thanks, again!

Wishing blessing to you all! I'm blessed just to have ya'll!

My LB is in the negative!

Oh, I had been asking him to pick me up a Snicker for like a month, well, I mentioned it again the day before. He said that he figure he would get it since I had been harping on it for a month! I said I asked twice, I thought you have forgotten about it! Am I just dealing with an @sshole (like he says) or is this part of the process?

(I'm with ChaCha...work is getting in the way of my work...(my posting) the last few days!)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Let me get this statement really clear--the one that knocked you up and over, spun you around, before you plummetted...

You heard your H telling you that he hears you saying, "It's Rin's way or no way!" is that correct?

I wanna be really clear on this...because when I read the lunch encounter, I thought he was saying he wanted it his way or no way...

Then we'll go from there, 'k? And I do want you to note your LB balance now...and then again, later, 'k?

LA

You got that correct! He's always saying that, because I want NC, because I refuse to allow a 3rd party in our M, because I'm enforces my personal boundaries. When he says that I hear I'm controlling. He use to say that I was controlling, out right, but I stated saying that it's impossible to control anyone, so now it's "Rin's way or not way!"

Ok, I'll keep my balance in mind. I have been reading on handling control issues this morning...I do see some areas I need to work on...

Hey, Rin.

I'm in my own rough spot right now, but thought I'd remind you of something that you said to me recently, regarding empty LB. It helped me!


Your quote (that I edited a little bit):

"It appears that you are still expecting something from him, what is it that you're trying to get from him that you can't get from yourself right now? It's still early in the game, apparently he's still not capable right now of whatever it is that your looking for. (Even if it is just a Snicker!)

What's holding you back from (getting it for yourself, doing things for yourself?) ... Do what you need to do to make you ... happy."


It was great advice for me, so I'm echoing it back in the hopes that it will help you feel a little more re-centered, too.

Hang in there. You're making great progress!

-AmI.

I'm looking for respect to be honest! I'm looking for him to back off when I say I don't want to do something in SF because I don't like it and/or it makes me uncomfortable. I'm expecting him to take no for an answer and not try to get me to change my mind. No, means, no, it's my body, not his! I guess I'm really expecting his to understand, acknowledge! Okay, there's the real motive. I'm expecting him to understand and acknowledge my feelings.

Thanks, AmI!

I asked for the Snickers because he goes to the store everyday, well, I'll just do for me. If I want one or anything else, I'll just may a point to care for myself. the next time he tells me to call or ask if I need or want something just ask. Amazing, the N can call, and he'll jump right on it! It's okay, I'm cool! Changing my focus, I need to do a little more detachment where he's concerned, get out from under some of the enmeshment.

Rinderella,

You will experiance a lot of frustration now that you realize the dynamic. IMHO

As you have said it had been going on for a long time. You were an active part in it so don't forget that.

Now you want it to change. YOU REALIZE NOW THAT THIS HAS CAUSED YOU MUCH PAIN, HURT AND ANGUISH.

You are probably now going through your past together and looking at all of the sitch's that this PA behavior has caused you problems. So now you are not dealing in the today with those actions but the past as well.

This is not the first time he has done this it is the 100th time in your mind. It is not the 100th time in his mind. IMHO.

So take it a day at a time. Look at his PA behavior today and try to do as much as you can to avoid it.

I see you bringing up much of the past with the N and the amount he didn't do at your home in the past. You had a chance to deal with that then and didn't(or didn't use the tools you have learned here) Now you can just say he is doing it now. Not again, not for the 100th time etc.


I don't know if you remember my feeling on POJA so I will say it again.

I don't believe that you can POJA on every thing. I think compromise is important sometimes. HOWEVER. I may not agree with you but I will AGREE TO LET YOU DO IT YOUR WAY. Again I am not agreeing with the decesion, I have agreed to let you make the decesion.

The PA will never agree to agreeing with the decesion. If they can't POJA there is no agreeing to let you have your way. That is control.

The other thing I have noticed is that if I do agree to agree and there are consequences she will not own them. So now agreeing to agree doesn't make sense for me. If she agrees to agree with me and there are consequences I own them and try to minimize the effects on any one else that could be effected by it. The PA doesn't do that.

What you are going through is normal.

I look at it like raising a kid.

If I let my son stay up until 10pm everynight and then tell him bed time is 9pm there will be some serious arguments for a while. If I don't stick to my guns he will get what he wants. I have to keep sticking to them in the beginning.

When I notice something my kids are doing wrong I make sure to be very strict on it for a while. That way they know I am not kidding about it.

You need to stick to your guns.

One more thing. What works sometimes for me is offering to do it her way if I can do the same.

The third party thing. Maybe you can agree with him and say I see your point. You said before you are like a trophy to him. HMMMMM. Do you think he would want an OM in the picture?

I know this is drastic so don't jump on it. Get out the digital camera. Get all dolled up and ask him to take some pics. Then ask him how he would describe you physically and write it down. Ask him all of the good things. Then when he does that homework tell him you are going to use the pics and the info to post on a dating website. OF course he will object to it. He will probably get very angry.

Then tell him HE IS BEING CONTROLLING. Say, can't possibly be saying it is ok for you and not for me are you?

I have had to use this on my FWW sometimes when she thinks I am being unfair.

Now again this is a back pocket last resort type of thing.

Thanks, HL- You've made a lot of sense. I'm not rushing into anything...I let myself be thrown of balance yesterday...well, I want to learn to be classy in the way I deal with things around here...

I can't change the past, you right, no sense in focusing on it...I just need to stand firm in the present...I feel that this is for my self-respect...maybe with time...he'll respect me too...if not well, I can't control that...

I feel I need to work on being patience forth most...learning what I can't control and what I can, needs some more work...and owning my own...not someone else. I've seen where I faulter and the only thing to do is get up and try again. Practice doesn't make perfect (LOL) but it's a good thing to do...

I have even caught myself trying to read into things again...I've got to remember...it is what it is...

Nope it doesn't. I have a 6 soon to be 7 year old son. When we are practicing I tell him one thing.

PERFECT PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT!!!! If you practice in the wrong way Practice will actually make you worse.

Not only that it takes a long time to fix something that you practiced wrong. Actually takes longer to fix it then if you didn't practice at all.

I see you read about detachment. Try doing this a little.

What he does is what he does. The more you let it effect you the more likely you are to react in a way that is non productive.

My FWW is scared right now. I can see it. I can feel it. She doesn't know which way is up becuase I have emotionally detached from her so I can work on me.

I won't be a codependant, enabler that avoids conflicts. I cannot do anything with the conflict avoider part RIGHT NOW because if I did we would always be in conflict.

I can detach and not be codependant, I do not need this relationship as it stands. I will not enable her to act in a PA way. I will walk away. Again I need to remain detached or I will not be able to fix myself.

She can't figure out what is going on. I am calm, cool, collected. I am not asking her for anything. I don't even want anything from her.

I say things now I would have never said in the past about my feelings without worry. Since we moved into the new apartment the AC drives me crazy. I said it last night. It bothers me. It is not a jab. It bothers me. Normally when I say something like that she gets mad at me.

Imagine that her getting mad at me because the AC is placed in a horrible spot in the floor plan she chose.

So I said it. When it goes on you have to turn the TV up and when it goes off the TV is blaring loud.

Felt darn good. She is so off balance she didn't thorw out the usual "am I going to hear about this forever" and try to be confrontational.

Because confrontational is not getting the right results for her right now.

I'm going to your reply to my post and haven't read the rest of the other posts, so I may be repeating...

"...because I want NC, because I refuse to allow a 3rd party in our M, because I'm enforces my personal boundaries. When he says that I hear I'm controlling. He use to say that I was controlling, out right, but I stated saying that it's impossible to control anyone, so now it's "Rin's way or not way!"

You are hearing his opinion...not THE TRUTH...and you let his truth run right through your hopper, directly into your brain...so much so that you began to search about control, controlling people...what is different from when he said it out-right, "You're controlling" and him saying now, that he sees your request for NC, no third-party as controlling, as Rin's way or no way?

His truth is not yours...only you can know this, not allow his statements into your brain until you KNOW you know this...otherwise? You can it as fact, something to contend, to refute, a bash, a slam...something to fix, to cure...a cause...is that correct?

That tells self...you're like you were...you are choosing to define who you are through others...read into things again...act on what isn't a your truth...

Natural...reactivity feels natural...doesn't even feel learned...does it? It was...dust off the hopper, Rin...place it on your brilliant head and listen, repeat...and do not allow in what isn't your truth AS your truth, 'k?

You can do this...

Your feelings are valid.

LA

OMG...I let this man have control over me for so long...he changes the content of the conversation and I'm thrown off...

I guess I did want something to "FIX," I feel like it was more so an affirmation to myself that I didn't see it, questioning if there was self-deception...I did learn alot that I think will help me out with the PA...I very well took his opinion and tried to prove him wrong again...It's he great at manipulation, causing self-doubt...well, he's only as great as I let him be, right? Oh, man...

:::dusting, dusting, oh, found a cobweb:::

I've got my head screwed on tight and straight today...LOL...I declined lunch with H today...needed my space to get a little clarity...sat in the silence of the house, being still for awhile...posted a little...

Wow, you got that right!

I got you LA! My Mentor...my sharer...my sister...!

I'm a good person! I try my very best to be O&H, to lend a hand when someone needs it, I know what I'm capable of, and what I'm not. I know my hearts in a good place. Do you know I've prayed more in the past month, then in years?

I guess I'm going to have to treat H like a virus...he has his moments of contagiousness...those moments I stay away because that's the moments that impact me the most...handle the other moments and I can build up to these...a little at a time...soon I'll be immune! That's my goal...being immune to owning other's stuff!

First real goal I've set in this whole thing!

HL- As the days go by brother, I understand more and more why you are where you are. I think that detactment can be healthy...it's not withdrawal! Thank you for all of your wisdom!

Okay, I was reading a thread and have a question!

Here goes..

You know I've found that I like knowing what to expect, in general...Where are we going...who's going to be there...what do you want from me? If I'm expected to work hard on a project, I would like to know...why?...

Am I just thinking wrong with living up to others expectations? SOmething I'm missing...I can't expect anything from others...but they can expect things from me? I do this so that I don't create resentment, anger, disappointment...

What am I missing? What am I not getting here? Simple, please...a lot of things I thought I knew I don't think I really knew! Like manipulation I can't believe what I learned...so expectations?

Hi Rin -


Oh! Oh! Oh! Pick me! Pick me! (Shrek reference there <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />).

I can so identify with that - it's much the way I feel right now. I even brought this up with MP this morning.

Her response? "It's not that you can't have expectations of others - you just need to tell people what they are, and take into account their ability to meet those expectations (this is where observation and knowing someone comes into play)."

OK - that was a paraphrase, but maybe she has something?

I don't know...I still feel like I'm missing a large piece of the puzzle. Then again, I'm having one of those days where I seem to have misplaced my flight plan and fallen out of the nest again...

BB- I can always count on you for a laugh! LOL

I don't know, are you thinking that sounds like trouble too? Knowing my H, I can ask for something and not get it!

"Oh, BTW, can you pick me up a ____? H agrees! I expect it!"

Well, like AmI asked me today,
I figure...I can't have any expectation...even if I say what I want or need...That's just a little example. So, I do for me, no expectation, and I guess I don't have to live up to anyone else's cause if I disappoint them. Well, it's not my feelings, I don't own them. Seems a little unfair...what's the payoff for living up to other's expectation?

The answer is it depends.

It depends on why you are trying to meet the expectations.

Do you want to meet them or do you feel like you have to meet them?

See if you want to do something for someone you should do it with an open heart and not expect anything in return.

The other thing to take into account is how do you really know what their expectations are.

Someone might make a request and you feel like it is an expectation.

Then there is the old caretaker thing you have going on.

Once you do something for someone long enough they come to expect it from you.

For instance my FWW used to help out a neighbor by going shopping for her. At first it was a request then it became an expectation.

And yes you can expect things from other. You can expect for them to give what they can. They not be able to do as much as you do or as well as you do it.

For instance I have a friend I helped move. Now should I expect him to help me move? Come on what is your answer. Don't stall just say yes he should.

Well my friend has MS. He can't help me move and it would be unrealistic for me to expect him to. This is an exteme example but I hope it makes my point.

Now as far as it causing resentment etc. If you really do something today hoping for something in return you are setting yourself up for resentment.

There is a point in time that in any relationship if you are putting in more then you can ever get in return you should cut back on your putting in.

We have all had friends like that. Hey can you give me a ride and you do it for them once a week then you need help and they won't give you a ride because it is inconveinent for them. Well if the friend asks me for a ride again I probably wont' give it to him if it inconviences me.

I won't resent the times I did it before but I might come to resent it in the future. He has no right to expect a ride from me after not helping me out. I have no obligation to give him a ride either.


It is healthy. The minute you take the power away from them you can work on yourself.

I have beat my head against the wall enough. It freaking hurts and now I gotta get the wall fixed.

You can't own everything. I tried plan A. I tried talking. I tried just about everything without results. Now she can't hurt me. Because I am detached.

Again I will tell you it is bothering her.

Soon she will make the comment I know is coming. You don't seem like you want to be around me. This time instead of putting myself out there. I am going to say no "I just don't need to be around you anymore".

So on to your 3 way relationship. If you don't want to post on a website. Browse on one one day in front of FWH.

When He asks why say just checking it out. Want to know my options if you don't committ to NC.