I have been diligently working on myself, and what part of the relationship I can. (BTW I AM STEAMING MAD RIGHT NOW)

She says she sees the difference in me, and things are going well. Then in conversation, I tell her an area where she has hurt me. She has asked me what she has done to me, and I finally get up the courage to answer, because she always gets so defensive about her part.

I tell her where she has hurt me, the action and the feeling. Not in a blame manner, but rather a matter of fact, and the consequence.

Everytime this happens, she will turn it around and say that she did this or that because of what I did. I do not feel as if she will take any personal responsibility other than if she can justify it at my expense. Granted, I have not been perfect, but for pete's sake. How can I be so powerful that I force her hand in her actions?

I am at a stopping point with her. I don't want to talk to her, I don't want to see her, anything unless in the current situation, she will accept responsibility for hurting me by HER actions. Whether or not I had a part in things.

I have told her, I will clean my side of the street, but I have to be able to get from her, her cleaning hers. I refuse to accept all the responsibility.

What can I possibly do about this?

You are continuing your reactive relationships, LM.

Gotta call you on it. You see her as not taking responsibility of her stuff...which is her feelings, thoughts and beliefs...

Yet you said how SHE hurt you...and she in turn said she reacted to what you did to her...

This cycle has no beginning or end, LM...unless you use "I" statements and own your stuff...

"I feel belittled when you say _____"

"I said I felt _____ when you said/did __________; and I heard I made you hurt me, is that correct?"

Are you opening up to your own stuff and sharing with her...or are you putting it on her, divvying it up like we did when we were kids...one for you, one for me...two for you, two for me?

I'm not putting you down...I know you're upset and working hard...I want you to stop, breathe and relax your shoulders...

Anger is a secondary emotion...what was your first?

If you want a great marriage with anyone (someday)...you've got to take blame out of the relationship.

She does/says something and you feel hurt...now, is she defining you? Telling you who you are? Is she telling you how to feel, think or believe?

Or is she sharing her truth, what hurts her, and it hurts you because you believe you are the cause...or you believe SHE believes you are at fault, to blame?

Hey, take great pains to separate your pains...'k?

No one can make you take responsibility for what isn't yours...she can believe you are responsible, that doesn't make you responsible.

Are you doing this to her? Are you saying what she is responsible and she doesn't believe it?

Know your penchant to withdraw...to end...find your fear and look at it closely. This is not conflict...it is a disagreement...you have an expectation for her to own this...does that mean she won't own anything?

Why and what do you have to get from her in order to get to your own?

No attack...changing the reactive dynamic is tough...first goes to your perspective, which I believe you have changed, and then to your reactive habit...and then to the underlying beliefs which give permissions for this habit...notice your cycle, your pattern.

You can do this.

LA

She tells me that I should let her know what actions she performed that hurt me. She performed an action on her part recently that humuliated me, and hurt me. Instead of saying to me, Honey, I know that what I did I should have given more thought to, or something along those lines, taking ownership for the act, she instead tells me that the reason she did what she did was my fault.

How in the world is her hurting my feelings, and causing me humiliation MY FAULT? IT WAS HER ACT!

I am way too stressed over this crap tonight, and I just came from my best friends showing of his 19 year old boy who passed away.

I can't even begin to digest a new line of thinking right now. I need to breathe.

LA thank you for the insight, and I have way more questions.....as they become known to me.

Thank you AGAIN for your help. I will meditate on this tonight, and reply as soon as my emotions subside.

I get that she invited you to tell her what she does to make withdrawals from your love bank...and you did...YOU had the invitation to tell her...not the commitment to take responsibility for it.

Breathe and grieve, LM...Rome wasn't paved in a day...anger protects against pain...jumps in there right after, sometimes, to distract you from what looks like it will hurt...or hurts.

No rush in the reply. Contemplate why your hurt was humiliation...sometimes what looks to others to be ugliness of the perpetrator does not bode anything for the victim but understanding. Double check if your humiliation and its depth was from that one incident, of if it packed a punch from a lot of similar incidents going way back...long before present GF, 'k?

(((((LM))))))

LA

Hi LM,

I know you might not want to focus on this now, while you're grieving for your friend and his family, but I read something about emotions recently that really made sense to me, and I thought it might help you, too.

It said that an emotion is an event that occurs within the body but can be triggered by something outside of you. The author uses the word "triggered" because it shows a connection but doesn't mean that one event CAUSES the other. This is especially important, because other factors (like your being tired, or hungry, or under stress) besides the trigger itself can affect the resulting emotion, so the trigger may not result in the same emotion every time. Sometimes a current trigger may even recall an unresolved emotion from a past trigger, so that the current emotion is even stronger than it might oterwise be.

So, to bring this back to your situation, your GF's actions may TRIGGER an emotion for you, but the emotion is YOURS. It happens to YOU, within YOU. It is affected by how tired or hungry you are, by your memories of past hurts, by all kinds of other things that are going on within you. She isn't making you respond to her behavior the way you do. Another person might have a completely different response to that same behavior.

Does that help?

I'm hoping to hear from you...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

Phew, been a busy few days. Ok here is the update.

Reactive, reactive, reactive. Nail on the head! Both play off one another. I do this, she does that. She does this, I do that. Endless cycles, same results. Hurt, frustration, emotional damage.

In this particular instance, I felt as if I needed for her to make an admission of wrongdoing, or at least making a decision that was not well thought out. Further, I needed her to see, understand, and be sorry for my hurt. I know for myself, that for me to be loving towards any other person, specifically her though, I need to be able to recognize when I have done wrong, assess the damage I have done, and be truly repentant, and make changes in myself to keep from repeating the same mistakes. I also took a page from the Cloud Townsend book that reiterated that same principle.

What ended up happening was a hugeeeee blown out argument. And despite some dumbness on my part, I was able to utilize the tools I am gaining here, and in the heat of things, in a calm voice, ask her to sit down and talk through things. I further, have had issue where she has been closed off to me. After all was said and done, we have sinced enjoyed 4 wonderful days of living! We are struggling, and both still have day by day moments, but in all fairness, things are improving.

She and I both agree that we are both responsible for reactive behavior, and that we both need help in that area. She has also started opening up to me more, Both things i desperately need. Not to feel as if I am the cause of the entire problems of the relationship, and to have her openly talk to me.

I do know that we have such a long long way to go, to stability, and stringing together many days of happiness, yet I feel hopeful, and encouraged once again.

And btw, HTBH, you made an interesting point about something not meaning the same to someone else as it does me. In hindsight, I could have "chosen" to look at things different. I have a new perspective next time around. Thank you.

LA, time and time again, you are on the mark. I have no idea, how you came to this point in your life, but I certainly appreciate you sticking your hand out, and please, don't ever feel it is unappreciated. Your help is paying off dividends in me and my relationship that I can't even believe. I will do my best to practie these principles as I learn them, every day, and pass along all I can when the opportunity presents itself. I am certainly grateful for your struggles in your own life, that have brought you to the point of being able to help me. Thank you so very much.

I will add more to this thread, especially about my friends son, and the events that precipitated this thread. I am tired tonight and just got back home after a couple days away. Good night, and I will write more tomorrow.

"I felt as if I needed for her to make an admission of wrongdoing, or at least making a decision that was not well thought out. Further, I needed her to see, understand, and be sorry for my hurt. I know for myself, that for me to be loving towards any other person, specifically her though, I need to be able to recognize when I have done wrong, assess the damage I have done, and be truly repentant, and make changes in myself to keep from repeating the same mistakes. I also took a page from the Cloud Townsend book that reiterated that same principle."

So you are holding her to your standards, is that correct?

Your standards are yours...only, right?

Boundaries are about you...you're only now finding your self, your place, your power...why require someone else to be up to speed, at your pace, your discoveries?

Heck, you sound like me!

LOL

Honestly...this is your built-in judgment at work...very subtle, under the radar..tit for tat...give to get mechanism that looks like respect and isn't.

No attack here...you are human...so am I...and you're getting there...and you feel wonderful at times...and sometimes not. No judgment. Believe in yourself, LM...you are deconstructing your life-long self-image, sighting true self, and it is a process. Stay centered on you...respectful of her...and yes, your whole life is changing...

How's the dog and cat feeling?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You are kind and generous to appreciate me. Yes, this is payback...the people here shared themselves and save my marriage. And yes, this is from my own process, continuing, to remember, learn, grow and stay accountable. My pleasure to connect to others...share my present and my past...

And yes, I look at all that brought me to and through these last two years as a dark, torturous and wonderous gift. I am deeply grateful to be here, alive and with my DH...my children...and to be living where I wake up with deep gratitude and a smile.

Rest yourself well...I think you have good priorities...and please continue to share. You're already giving back in every post...others read and learn...know they aren't alone...and they are equal, acceptable, marvelously made...

like you.

LA

Hi Loving Man,

Glad to hear that you are feeling hopeful!

I'm glad that my post was helpful to you -- I've always had a hard time seeing that someone else didn't "make" me feel a certain way, so it was a big deal for me to finally understand it, and I'm glad to help pass it on!

I think it's great that you are willing to try a new perspective, but I wanted to make sure I didn't give you the impression that I thought you necessarily needed to. Your reactions and your feelings are yours alone, and unique from everyone else's, but that doesn't mean there is anything wrong with them! You might want to just spend some time thinking about WHY you react the way you do, why you feel the way you do, so you can understand yourself better and then decide from there how you want to proceed.

To me, that's what LA's mantra of "separate but equal" is all about -- knowing that you are different from your GF, and that's OK. And if you eventually decide there are parts of you that you want to change, that's OK too. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I agree with you wholeheartedly that LA is an inspiration! Her advice means so much to me, and I'm so glad she's willing to share her time with us here.

(Hi LA! Hope you're well!)

HTBH

Dog, Cat... It's amazing how healthy the animals are becoming. The depression is starting to wain, and periods of happiness, and peace are showing. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Yes, Holding her to MY standards. Asking for someone else, something that I ask in myself. Nothing more, nothing less. I often look for things in others that I look for in me. Perhaps that is a fault, perhaps that is my way of finding someone I can share with. Someone I can have a common bond with. It is especially noticeable in my relationships with people I care about and love.

It is not limited to just positives either. Often times, the very glaring qualities in myself that are destructive, are the first ones I can pick out in someone else. It is amazing how much my circle is full of people who are like minded as myself.

I am coming to new levels of honesty lately, and having many things revealed to me about myself. Through prayer, and action, I am surprised! For instance, through a discussion the other night with a support group, I realized that over the last 8 years of my life, help that has been offered, I have rejected outright, because I it wasn't help the way I wanted, or in the manner I felt it should be given. I wanted help, and I wanted it my way. Like I could possibly know what that would be. Sheesh! Sometimes I think this brain needs a vacation from itself. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

One of the more positive things I am finding through all this too, is my perception of God, an understanding, and effective faith that works, is changing. No longer is God this white bearded, fine robed man, with a booming voice, that sits in the clouds on a golden throne...waiting to smack me down each time I screw up, or patting me on the back when I do well. He is now like electricity. Silent, I don't really understand how He works. Yet, I do know that I hope that His supply is never cut off. I do know that I depend on Him for comfort, security, and independence. He meets my simplest daily needs, and my most desperate.

I am settling into a place where I can accept that this is a process, and that things are not going to happen overnight. I am not always comfortable with that thought, but I am coming around to it. Heck, if I stop and think about it, it took a lifetime to get to where I am now. Realistically, things have actually taken on a new life rather quickly in some aspects. For instance, I am much farther ahead today, than I was 3 months ago. For that I am thankful.

HTBH Please don't ever feel like I am taking offense at anything you offer. Remember, I am the one who is posting here asking for help. If I don't want it, don't ask right?
I am thankful for your generosity in sharing your life's experiences, that they may help me. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Again, let me close with sincere thankfulness. I appreciate that you guys are here, and that you have concern for me as a person. I know from own experiences in life that when you travel a similiar road as another, you cannot help but keep them in your thoughts and prayers. I appreciate that all of you have had that concern for me. It is evident in your advice. Thank you for making me feel a part of the MB family.

LM! Great to see you!

"help that has been offered, I have rejected outright, because I it wasn't help the way I wanted, or in the manner I felt it should be given. I wanted help, and I wanted it my way. Like I could possibly know what that would be. Sheesh! Sometimes I think this brain needs a vacation from itself."

You are soooo not alone. This was me, too. And you said it very well...now, look how you ended that brilliant realiation...with a self-bash. Learn one critical thing early...self didn't do it. Your brain didn't do it. Your self-image did that. Get rid of self-image.

Do you allow others to blame your brain? Bash you? To have boundaries in balance...what you won't allow others to do to you is what you also do not allow you to do to you.

Balance.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

"Yes, Holding her to MY standards. Asking for someone else, something that I ask in myself."

This is what we're raised with...sounds so fair and equal, doesn't it?

"Nothing more, nothing less."

And it is one of the most destructive beliefs and permissions to have in your life.

It corrodes everything...toxifies perspective and creates distance in all relationships.

No kidding.

You are separate from everyone else...you are uniquely created, well-made...equal. Your standards are yours alone. To hold anyone else to yours, when they rightly have their own is criminal. Don't do it. Detoxify. Understand everyone develops their own code...of standards and boundaries. Your job is to respect both, equally as you respect yours...

"I often look for things in others that I look for in me. Perhaps that is a fault, perhaps that is my way of finding someone I can share with. Someone I can have a common bond with."

This is called living externally, and it is a false shortcut to intimacy...sharing likes/dislikes, displaying emotions in similar fashions...is only exposing a few layers of self and it can seemingly connect us, feel flush with intimacy and acceptance...but it stops there. Why?

Because you are looking into others to see self...and self is right here...accepting self directly, not through others, is authentic. No shortcut, no false intimacy. Accepting self directly leads to sharing self directly with others which is full intimacy...only way to it is to stop using yourself as a measure...a finder...a seer into others.

They are not self. Cannot be self.

All selves are different...that is a common bond...created by the same hand, sharing existence in the here and now...and it's crucial to understanding differences, which have no reflection, are not good nor bad, on your own self...which takes eliminating judgment. Your way of bonding requires judgment...invasive judgment...and do not deceive yourself into thinking but this is judgment for good...which takes judgment to get to judgment...because all things go both ways...nothing is one way. If you will use judgment for good, you will use it destructively...our human brains don't know judgment; our beliefs are not deductively aligned...they apply to all.

"It is especially noticeable in my relationships with people I care about and love." Here is where you are seeking security through connection...adaptation with similarity and though this sounds reasonable, flip it over.

Means higher fear with differences (of opinion, even); disconnection; estrangement and difficulty with respecting others as separate and equal. When fear is higher, love is lowered; fear betrays self, as does disconnection and estrangement...and respect is our essential belief and chosen perspective for being human. Show care in what you choose to belief and live by--it matters. What was comfortable was what you lived...you haven't felt whole living that way, have you?

We are all God's creations...the closer you draw to humans, his creations, the closer you are to the creator. You can see where judgment creates disconnection.

You new honesty awareness and commitment...your self-care and new routines are drawing you closer to everyone, LM. God is blossoming in you...your mind is opening as well as your long-starved heart...your fear rises and falls, but I hear is getting closer and closer to child-size, which it really is, inside of you.

His supply is never cut off. Unless you disconnect.

He gave us that choice. And we do...know when you are and when you are not. And then look at why you are choosing to disconnect...most often, you will find a fear.

You were already loved when you walked through the door...and each day you're growing closer to that truth, LM. I'm delighted you already figured out to let go the timeline...yes, you have taken a lifetime to get to where you can live...we all do...enjoy the process...your journey is important and I'm grateful you're sharing it.

Thank YOU.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA



You write so well and true...like soul speak.