WH wants to take DS out of state to see his parents. 3 states away. I am not comfortable with that. So, I am sending down a note simply stating this:

"WH, I do not approve of DS taking a trip to XX state. Kim"

WH has waited last minute to ask about "helping" out w/ uncovered weeks between school & summer camp. I have already taken care of arrangements.

Do I need to say more in my note?

Do I have the right to NOT allow WH to take DS out of state?

I do not have "legal" custody. So if WH chose to not return DS to me, I have no rights.

Kim

Depends on the state.

Here, once there is a legal separation, or divorce papers are initiated, there is an automatic order preventing either parent from taking the kids out of state until custody orders are finalized.

If there's no legal separation or divorce or custody decree, though, then neither parent can prevent the other parent from taking the kids anywhere. And you're right, your WH could decide not to come back or bring the kids back, but he could do that anyway if ther eis no custody order. He could pick them up from school/daycare and just take off with them if he wants to. Now none of that would look good for him once you do go to court for custody. But he'd still be legally able to do it.

You could probably get an emergency custody order if you wanted to. Without that, though, I'm not sure that you have much legal right to stop him from taking them out of state.


Need to add a disclaimer -- I'm not a lawyer, just have been through all kinds of custody battles.

Good luck.

This is a question for an attorney. One on the board may be able to answer, but you need to see one and make sure what your rights are and get yourself and your son protected.

I don't think he would not return DS. I just don't want him taking DS out of state. It's a very long way ---- DS and I have not been apart like that. I would be fine if WH wanted to take him overnight or for 2 days or so to the beach or something......

Thanks for the input. There currently is not a legal separation in place. WH has been paying his share of bills as requested.

Kim

Sorry don't know. State and fact specific.

Mr. W

Georgia.

edited to correct spelling!

Then consider this a "practice" for you to become "emotionally dependent" of your kids. It will also be a "learning experience" for your kids to travel. Allow this TIME away from them for YOU to LEARN things about yourself. Consider this thought as well. It is something you would need to learn anyway years down the road if and when they (your kids) choose to go to college farther than 3 states away.

So RELAX. Your children will be fine. And so will you.

With the state of our Marriage, I think it is unfair of WH to even request to take DS out of state. As I said, I would be fine with a trip to the beach. DS didn't even want to do an overnight with WH when he asked not too long ago.

Plus WH's car is not in the best of shape. I wonder if it could even make the trip.

Plus, like I said, WH has waited until two days before school was out to spring this on me. I have made ALL of the summer care arrangements - next week is covered.

Kim

Why? He's still your DS's dad, whether or not he's a good husband. Don't you think that WH ought to be able to foster his relationship with his DS?


I'm a step-parent and the daughter of divorced parents, so I'm very biased, but I do have a different perspective here. In my experience, one of the surest ways you can foster long-term, deep resentment from your child is to try to come between them and their other parent.

No matter what kind of a jerk the other parent has been to you, as long as there isn't abuse or neglect, I really, really think you're much better off being supportive of the child's relationship with them.

Your DS will eventually figure out which parent is REALLY there for him, and who's taken care of him all along and always had his best interest at heart. And he'll also figure out who was using him as a pawn to get back at someone else.

It's SO hard in an emotionally charged situation like this, but you need to look very hard at what's really in your DS's best interest instead of at how you feel about WH.

I understand what you are saying Ami, perhaps my view of WH is tainting my view. Yes, WH has been awful - my story is no different than any other BS out there although ML says mine is one of the worst.

I guess my point is that I have given WH info about childcare for the summer, asked his opinion, etc. and got no response. I even told him in a note that there was some uncovered time. I got no response. SO, I made all the arrangements. 2 days ago WH thinks it is "great" of him to offer to "help" and wants to take DS to Ohio.

Maybe I am not sure what it is that I have an issue with. Perhaps it is a combination of everything.

A tiny part of me is scared that WH will not return DS.

I am also a bit angry that WH has ignored my second request to return my tax information so that I could go ahead and file separately and my request for DS's new Insurance Cards so I can take him to the Dentist and Doctor.

I would love for WH to have overnights with DS. Everytime WH comes to pick him up I am positive and tell him to have fun, etc.

I am excited to see him come home & make sure I say that I hoped he and Daddy had fun. I ask about their day, but not too much b/c I don't want to hear about WH.

I think it is fair for me to be uncomfortable for WH to take DS 3 states away. And, yes, it is due to the state of our M: He is not trustworthy.

Ami - thanks again for your perspective. I also needed to vent.

Kim

You aren't comfortable with WH taking the children out of state because you don't trust him.

Period.

It's a genralized distrust..which is why you can't quite put your finger on it.

WH has demonstrated that he is untrustworthy..that his judgement is poor, that he is willing to hurt you.

It's hard to even KNOW what is in the best interest of the child.

Children in the custody of a crazy person = crazy making anxiety.

Understand..I *am* the grownup version of a child who was essentially kidnapped.

Oh..everything went through the proper legal channels..eventually.

Yet..the inital action was..that when my mother decided to leave my father..she left the state with me in tow and I have literally never seen my father or any of my paternal family since.

I was five.

So I know that these things DO sometimes happen, I would not allow it if I had any other recourse.

What are your options?

Noodle -

Thank you. Even though, the HUSBAND I knew would never do anything like that, I do NOT know him any longer. He is a WH. You are right, I just don't completely trust him.

I am so sorry that you went through what you did. That is sad that you have not seen your father nor his family. Did your mother re-marry?

I am going to see if I get a reaction from my note that I sent WH tonight. If he pushes the issue, then I see no other way around it but to go the legal route to protect my custody of DS. In my state, I don't believe the courts look favorable on an H moving out of the home. Technically he has deserted us.

I have continued to dance around the Lawyer thing.......Fortunately, I have been blessed in that WH has continued paying bills.

Thanks again Noodle. I am glad you posted.

Kim

I probably should not have commented since I don't know you're story. I guess this is a pretty touchy subject for me and I feel strongly about it. So I get a little one-track-minded about it sometimes. But none of the "other parents" that I've ever known would have hit anyone's "worst" list, so I don't have much room to speak here.


Here's what I really meant and how I should have said it:

If you think that your WH may not bring your DS back, or that he can't be trusted (as a parent, to provide appropriate care for your child -- obviously WS's in general are not the trustworthy sort), then I think you're absolutely right to not want him to go.

If you're just mad at WH and trying to get back at him for not responding to you on your timeline, or for not helping you make childcare plans for the summer ... then I think you may want to look at your motives a little more.


I definitely did not mean to imply that you didn't have your son's best interest at heart, and if it came across that way at all, I truly apologize.


-Ami.

Kim,

Yes, my mother did remarry..a man she hooked up with while still married to my father.

In my opinion that makes it an affair marriage.

She herself would admit that she probably left her marriage for good because she had replaced him with someone else.

For me it was an out of the frying pan and into the fire sort of situation..very extreme and so I wouldn't ask anyone to relate or identify very closely..nor do I think you need to use my history as a model..just one unlikely [but very possible] possibility.

I wouldn't allow it if I could prevent it..if that meant filing for legal separation..I'd say pull the trigger.

Establishing custody..charging H with abandonment..whatever it takes to DEFINE the boundaries for you both..and to already have the tracks layed if he steps out of line.

Immagine if WHILE he was out of state he decided not to come back..and rather than being able to call the police and report a kidnapping..you FIRST had to run through the maze of establishing that the child WAS kidnapped?

WSs do some crazy stuff. They are not trustworthy..their judgement is not sound.

Ami - Hi - it's o.k. I value everyone's opinion and viewpoint here even if I don't follow it all the time!! I can understand that you have different experiences than me -- it all comes into play!

Noodle - I am still glad you shared your story. Bottom line is that I don't have any guarantee that WH will return DS. Again, WH loves DS and I don't think he would do anything to harm him or make him unhappy. But who knows????

Here are some other factors: 1 - WH has yet to volunteer to me where he is working now. He got a new job in January. 2 - He is also keeping it a secret where he lives. Granted, I have not pushed to ask about either one since I am in Plan B.

I got a return note from WH. I will post it shortly and an attempt at a response ( or should I even bother??) WH is quite angry.

Kim

Red flag.

You don't know where he works or lives?

That is just waaaaaaaaaay too little info for me to accept from anyone I am trusting my child with.

It's fishy...this secretiveness.

I'd go ahead and set a legal precedent to protect your custody rights.

BTW..Why are you having so much contact from someone in plan B? Seems like a lot of interaction.

WH's Note:

"OW and I haven't spoken in a month or more. Do not spoil this by continuing to contact OWH. Just let it go. I believe things are over and done with. Just leave it be!

PS I can't tell you how mad this note makes me!

You take DS to XX(my home town), why can I not take him to see his GrandParents in XX?

Everytime I'm on the verge of doing what it takes to be with DS as a family, you throw in some new demand or condition or roadblock. Maybe we just wouldn't be able to live in the same house anymore."

WHAT????? First of all, my note said nothing about OW. Just "I do not approve of DS going to XX, Kim"

Perhaps he is mad b/c I didn't sign "love" to it??? Or that I didn't give him some long, mushy note??

Who knows.

Should I even respond?? Here are my thoughts:

"WH,

I understand that it is hard for you to put yourself in my shoes. I don't expect you to understand how I feel.

I love that you are continuing to be a part of DS's life, but asking to travel out of state with him is a bit different than my taking him 2 hours away.

I am sorry that my feelings have angered you, I cannot understand why the blame and responsibility continues to fall on me for your actions with your Affair and your inability to do what is necessary to gain mine and DS's trust and respect. That is what is keeping this family apart.

Love,

Kim"

O.k. ---- help me cut and whack it into shape. It could be a bit much. AND I realize I broke Plan B in a major way last week. I feel so much stronger right now though. I am finally Letting it GO.

Kim

edited to correct spelling and remove OWH's name. OOPS

I know Noodle. WH ran off my intermediaries back in December. What can I do when he asks about child related issues?? I can't ignore it -- that would look bad if we ever had to go to court(I would appear uncooperative)

I have had major moments of weakness over the last month or so with staying in Plan B......MelodyLane I am sure is disappointed in me.....

I am SOOOO fighting bringing in a lawyer on this. I am finally getting my finances in order & hate the idea of putting any more financial stress on myself. I also need to get over the thought that bringing in a lawyer does not mean the end of the M.

Kim

Oh, and Noodle - WH is so secretive b/c he is worried I will tell OWH where he works & lives. WH is scared that OWH will come and beat him or something worse.

Kim

I'd say something like..

"H,

I am not comfortable with DS traveling out of state with you at this time.

The conditions for recovery [and your welcome in our home] have been outlined. Until these conditions are met your return to our home is completely out of the question.

If you have an alternative suggestion regarding DS that does not include out of state travel please send word to *intermediary*.

Your name."


You are in plan B..which means that you do NOT engage in these sorts of defenses and arguaments.

The point is this..you don't feel comfortable with him taking the child out of state. Don't address any other point..don't defend your feelings or your actions. H isn't stupid [all evidence to the contrary] he doesn't need it explained to him.

Total black silence is what he should be getting from you..exposure was part of plan A..if you skipped that part while IN plan A..it's unfortunate..glad you did it..but while it might have impacted the A..it also impacted your plan B.

You are already back to dialogue with WS.

Don't let him draw you back in. It's fine that he's mad. He doesn't have to like it. The loss of control is PART of the consequence of plan B. Don't *talk* to him about consequences..show him. That's where the teeth are at.

Either he is willing to commit to the recovery of the marriage on your terms..or he isn't..he gets to decide.

I promise you that you don't want his return without him having met and agreed to the stipulations.

Many a false recovery there.

So don't allow that to be a threat..you don't want to live with a WS anyway..when he can come as H..that's a different story.