p.s. this is true, but in her case, the intermediaries were a DISASTER. Her WS successfully manipulated them and had them calling her and lecturing her on "how can you save your marriage if you won't talk to him??" Her intermediary even lectured her on the foolishness of a making him "sign a letter!" [the nc letter] So, I was RELIEVED to see them go. They put her through he11. Can you imagine having to debate with your intermediaries while you are going through the he11 of Plan B? sheeesh....

Heh..

So he did in fact "use" the proper channels..just not in a constructive way.

----> Fault of the intermediary. They should not have allowed dialogue. Just the facts/info and pass it along.

***sighs***

Hi Mel --- I haven't pushed this issue. I believe though that if WH asks to have DS for an overnight that I have the right to know where he will be staying. Do you agree? Should I insist on knowing before allowing DS to do an overnight?

I wish I could find a new intermediary too.

Any MB volunteers?? Jusk kidding......

Peachblossom - thanks for your post & your take on the sitch!



So Jean, you will have to fill me in on some cyber secrets. Perhaps I could pay to get that info somewhere?? BTW, I am doing the opposite of what you suggested.....I already told him I didn't approve. I'm not one to go back on my words. Oh well.



Noodle - I'm not sure if I am following you on those points there. Could you explain further & tell me what the points are referencing?

AD - thanks for checking in. Were you in Plan B when your kids traveled out of the country? I think basically b/c my H is not forthcoming with info to me, I have no clue where his head is. Perhaps he is planning on "rescuing" OW w/her kids and taking DS along to start a new life elsewhere. Kind of far-fetched I suppose, but I really have no clue.

Here is my update:

I decided to shorten the note even more. Left out the first sentence about me not being comfortable with DS going out of state. I figured that 1 - I already told him I didn't approve and 2 - He would take that one step further and think "O.k. Kim doens't trust me even with DS. I will NEVER be able to gain her trust again."

Maybe not quite the right logic to leave it out, but here was my final note:

"WH, If you have an alternative plan with DS that does not inlude out of state travel, please let me know via a note. You can pick DS up at our house on Tuesday at your normal time. Love, Kim"

Kim

Heck yes, I would want to know this! You have every right to know where your own child is being taken. And he should have no reason to not tell you, unless he is hiding something.

K,

Sure thing.

He was using your boundary as fuel for his own lack of committment to your marriage and your son.

The truth is..he could spend an enormous amount of time with his son..if that was his priority.

The truth is..he will NOT be welcome in the home until and unless he is willing to not only accept but also embrace the protective conditions.

I didn't see you take this perspective..what I saw was defensive, apologetic, self explanation in the face of his accusations.

Lots of "How could you think that..I'm sorry you feel" and such.

So..if you were feeling insecure enough to address it..I thought..hey, beat him to the punch..take his thinly veiled threat and use it as a weapon. Not "maybe" we can't live together unless I give you your way...instead.. we *definitely* can't..because I don't WANT you back unless you are willing to commit to the rough road of reconcile..on my terms.

I know a power play when I see it. Right now you have leverage via plan B..he wants it back.

I also don't think your rescue fears are totally invalid.

I'm living proof that these things do happen..it isn't likely..but when as person has demonstrated that they are untrustworthy..I don't send them off with my children just as a personal policy.

I think you did good with the note you sent. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

noodle, this has been the overriding dynamic in their relationship and you have zeroed right in on it. He is very manipulative; she is very reactive and he uses that reaction very effectively as a weapon against her. She doesn't have a manipulative bone in her body so is often oblivious to his tactics.

Kim, sorry to talk about you like you are not here! But noodle sees what I see and I wanted to affirm her perception.

Thanks Mel & Noodle - Got it & understood! Gosh, I hope my thread can help others......Thanks for your posts.

& Noodle, thanks for going over your points again.

Steve Harley also labeled WH as manipulative. Why do I associate that with being evil?

The truth is..he could spend an enormous amount of time with his son..if that was his priority.

So true Noodle. He is satiated with the 3 days a week thing.

So, here is the response note from WH that I need help with:

I will preface this with the fact that WH's grandparents really are not in that great of health. So traveling for them is not a great option.

"Kim,

There is no alternative plan to see DS's grandparents - the live in XX(3 states away). Please tell me your objection to this trip.

I would be best to take this trip as a family, but right now than's possible since we're not talking. At least DS should get a chance to visit his other grandparents. No matter what, we cannot use DS as a bargaining tool between us. Please tell me DS's schedule so I have an idea of where he will be and waht I need to pay for.

Love, WH"

I will tell you guys that I have given him all info on summer camp that has been paid so far along with the dates.

O.k. - more help needed. What should I do or not do next?

Thanks!

Kim

Do nothing. He is trying to take back control of the situation by opening up a new debate with you by disrespecting your wishes. This is how he ALWAYS does it. IGNORE HIM. You have stated your wishes and that is all he needs to know. YOU are in control, NOT HIM.


Thats not possible because he is actively pursuing an affair and refuses to meet even your minimum requirement to come back.

Agree with ML..

This is nothing but a new direction in an old tactic.

I'll bet it wasn't remotely important to visit Grams and Gramps before now.

How many other summers has he insisted on it?

I smell a fish..or a corpse..in any case something's stinky that he's pushing so hard.

The real trouble is that already you are sucked back in..that you don't SEE this manipulation for what it is..instead you are considering this from his standpoint and accepting his script.

Do nothing..you have stated you objections..don't allow him to draw you in to a dialogue..don't defend your distrust of him..let it stand as is.

You are not using your son as a bargaining tool..don't buy into that either. You are not comfortable sending him out of state with a man you don't trust..period.

Well...



1. They live so far away.



2. Corrrect. we are not talking because my husband is with another woman.

"These are reasons I don't feel comfortable.

I'm sorry son won't be seeing his other grandparents. Maybe son will be able to see them another time soon."

Send the grandparents a note that says "I'm so sorry that son will not be able to come and visit. Until my h. ends his relationship with OW and returns to our family I am not comfortable with S traveling so far away from me. Hope you have a wonderful visit with H. (and can help him pull his head outta his a$$ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />) " blah, blah, blah...something like that.

But, I would do NOTHING unless/until you are forced to reply. Let him fret. He brought this all on himself.

Wonder if he wants to get money from his parents..trying to make like the dutiful son and father... so it is him that is using his own son....

Not that it matters..but just to TRY to figure out what he is up to...

MelodyLane, Mimi, Noodle & Susan -

Thanks all for your feedback. I agree that no response is the way to go. I do not need to defend my position or get pulled into a dialogue with WH. It is what it is.

I have a more pressing need right now, so I hope someone is out there to help!!

Got a voice mail from WH's mom. Said she wanted to wish me "happy Memorial Day" and for me to give her a call. This is the FIRST time WH's Mom has called me since I told her about the A last year.

We last spoke on Mother's Day when I called to wish her well. I didn't talk about WH at all, she asked how I was & I told her I was doing very good.

I need help with phone prep! Should I use some of Susan's note if this trip thing is brought up??

I have no idea what she is going to say or ask me --- I guess she might ask "why can't DS come out to Ohio." That is all I can figure.

I am going to try calling her in about 15 minutes.

Thanks!

Kim

Just tell her the truth! Be sure and tell her that WS is still pursuing his affair and that it is very hard on you and DS.

I would definitely talk to her because this might shed light on what's up with him.

I like Susan's idea. Tell her the truth. Her son continues to be a wayward..you don't trust him, etc....

You cannot go wrong with the above advice. There is no need to "plan" or "strategize" what to say Kim. Tell the truth. Don't sweat the small stuff.

LM

Oh wow! Guys, thanks so much!!!!

I will be fine. The truth -

You all are on the ball tonight!

Hope you all had a wonderful day --- We sure did! Will be back later to let you know how the call went -

Kim

Well -

Spoke with WH's mom. Will skip over the "how are ya'?" & the "what did you do today" part.

WHM said that WH had mentioned to her a possible trip, but when they spoke yesterday WH said that it probably wasn't going to happen. WHM wanted to know if it was anything that they did.

I told her that I just wasn't comfortable right now with DS traveling 3 states away. Exactly the truth. I can't remember all of the details of the call, but I know I repeated that statement at least 5 times.

I also repeated that "WH was actively pursuing another woman" about 4 times.

She said that WH told her that it was over between OW and him and she didn't know why he would tell HER that if it was not true.

And repeated "This whole thing has been extremely hard on DS and I" about 4 times.

I expressed that I would love for DS to see them. That I would love to see them. WHM asked if the problem was with the amount of time that WH and DS would be spending together. I told her no, that I would love for them to spend more time together IN STATE. And that they have not even had an overnight together here.

She wanted me to think about it & call her back tomorrow. I told her that my feelings were quite strong & that I just wasn't comfortable.

Then she started to push it a bit more. She said that she knew that WH & I were on the "outs"......I interrupted her right there. I told her that for ME, I wasn't looking at it that we were on the "outs". (& here is where I might have blown it a bit-too preachy perhaps? too much of I am still waiting around?) That I still believed in my wedding vows & my Marriage and that if we would BOTH put a 100% into rebuilding and making each other happy and gaining trust that we could have a marriage that would be BETTER than before. That all of my communication to WH has been to that effect and has always been positive.

She said that she they would really like to see DS and that she guessed they would never see him again. That WH's StepDad is not doing too good and they could not travel at all. She then tried to relate to me by sharing with me her experience when she and her first H divorced. That she let him take the kids to see his parents. That she's "been there, done that." That her H cheated on her........

I just kept repeating my stance. She said that it wouldn't help anything(with the M) by me not letting DS go. I said, so I'm supposed to go against what my gut is telling me and just feel totally uncomfortable? That's not going to help the M either.

So, that was basically it. She tried to persuade me. I kept repeating how I felt. I told her the timing was totally OFF.

She said that "She was trying to take care of her own."

I guess I don't have her on my side anymore. She was still quite caring to me, but she doesn't believe the M is going to make it. I could tell.

She told me that WH would not be traveling with a "friend" and that WH & DS would even stay with them. (sorry if I offend any smokers, but they both smoke heavily. I don't want DS to be exposed for days in a smokey environment.) She said that they are not even ready for WH to bring anybody else around. GEE THANKS!


Kim

Kim, sounds like you did great! Is there any way you could take DS and go for a visit?

Follow your gut instincts. The time is not right.

Moms will be moms. They want to think the best of their kids. So does your CH's mom. When they live so far away, they aren't embroiled in the day-to-day h-e-l-l that an affair brings. When so removed, they don't feel the pain and only think about their son. Assure your drama queen WHM that this is not the end of their relationship with their grandson. Tell them that you will encourage with them as well as their father. However, at this point, things are too up-in-the-air for a visit. Perhaps you pull out the lawyer card.

Empathize with WHM that her husband was a cheater. Slide in that one of your goals in life is that your son will be a true and faithful husband. Wonder what she'll say to that?

Good job Kim! I'm glad you stuck up for yourself and DS. If you are not comfortable the time is NOT right.