As most of you already know, I feel that my H told me only as much of the truth as he thought he had to tell me in order to get me to come back home. He has, for the most part, been wonderful to me since he finally admitted the "one-night stand" from which he contracted trich and then passed it on to me.<P>However, I still believe that something went on between him and Cafe Woman last year, based on things said and my own observations of their behavior around each other. However, for the sake of relative objectivity (is such a thing possible?), I'm trying to focus on facts in order to figure out if my suspicions are really valid.<P>Fact 1: Shortly after I confronted H with my suspicions that he was having an affair (did not know with whom at that point), Cafe Woman said to me (after making an insulting allusion to my weight): "....H really does love you, SP. He's told me so many, many times."<P>Fact 2: H denies that he has ever discussed his feelings for me with CW.<P>Fact 3: After our "go-'round" last October, when H told me he knew I suspected him of having an affair with CW, he told me: "You know, CW asked me about a year ago if you thought there was something going on between me and her."<P>Fact 4: At our counseling session, H denied ever telling me that and also denied that CW ever asked him if I was suspicious of anything going on with them.<P>Fact 5: At last year's Halloween party, I observed my H rubbing up against CW's butt as she was bent over an ice chest.<P>Now, just based on the statements alone, I conclude that someone is lying--probably my H.<P>RE: Facts 1 and 2: If H isn't lying, why did CW tell me that H had told her how much he loves me many, many times? If nothing is going on, why would she tell me something that isn't true?<P>Facts 3 and 4: H has contradicted himself. If nothing was going on, why lie?<P>And then, there's the butt-rubbing incident, along with other observations that aren't so objective--such as looks between the two of them, the flirting, etc.<P>So, am I being rational in my suspicions?<P>[This message has been edited by Sweetpea (edited October 02, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by Sweetpea (edited October 02, 1999).]

Sweet pea, what you're feeling is normal. We all want to be able to fit all the pices of the puzzle and have a correct picture at the end. However sometimes it's time to let it go a bit. <BR>If your h has been consistently showing that he wants to work it out with you and if he realizes how serious something ( even a one night stand ) can turn out to be, and you feel that he is really trying , maybe it's time to focus on that instead.<BR>Obessing over anything doesn't let us see the good things happening around us, and we feel wrose and worse as time passes. On the other hand , if you just let go a bit, there's a chance that all our question will be answered at some point. At the begining there is a feeling of being judged ( rightly but we tend to defend ourselves from that ), defensive ( fear of saying something that will wreck the relationship, or just plain normal reaction ) .AS things progress, and are more positive, usually the betrayer feels more confortable talking about it, but that usually takes some time.<BR>Your need to know is valid, but maybe now it's time to relax, the answers will come at a later stage.<BR>Take care<BR>Kat<P>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.

Hi, Kat,<BR> I am appreciative of H's efforts to be more loving and affectionate, and I enjoy my time with him now. NO lovebusting in the past couple of weeks!<P> I don't know what he's feeling about the whole thing. He told me that he regretted the one-night stand, and he said, "I apologize." I do wish he had been more specific as to what he was apologizing for, but he just said, "I apologized and wasn't that enough for you?" Somehow, his choice of words seem "off" somehow. I guess it's because I don't equate "I apologize" with "I'm sorry." But, I'm trying not to dwell over that, because he may have meant that he was sorry.<P>And, yeah, I know that I need to just sit back, enjoy the present, and wait. The problem is that I waited for over 13 years to get any admission from him! 13 years of lies are hard to get over!<P>When I'm with him, I do very well. However, I still wonder what he's doing when he's away from me, even though I'm almost sure the last year thing is over with. I feel that he had an emotional connection with the Cafe Woman, and I felt that he was in heavy withdrawal after our confrontation last year...so much so, that he couldn't even stay away from her restaurant after I asked him not to go around her without me, which is why I packed up and disappeared for a while.<BR> Also, I feel that his activities would make it relatively easy for him to cheat again. For instance, he and a group of buddies are catering a BBQ today. He was gone until midnight last night and is out there all day today. It would be very easy for him to "have to run to town for something" and disappear for an hour or two without my being any the wiser--unless I stay out there with him the whole time. <P>I do NOT want to have to be a watchdog for the rest of my life!! I want to trust him, but I can't trust him if he keeps lying. I feel like our whole marriage has been one big lie.<P>I'm also waiting for a new marriage proposal and recommitment. He knows that I want it, and I'm hoping that the only reason he hasn't proposed again is because he hasn't been able to buy the new rings. And, I'm not bringing it up to him again because I want him to want to do this.<P>I guess that my problem is that I've been waiting for so long that my patience has worn thin.<P>Anyway, thanks for reaffirming what I know I must do. It helps a lot!

From someone who's got more than her fair share of lies to obsess on: Yes, you're being rational. From the same person: Truth-tellers tell the whole truth up front, while liars continue to lie - telling only as much of the truth as they have to at any given moment - so obsessing is pointless. It is also very destructive to your mental health and the health of your relationship. For this reason I choose not to obsess about old lies - just keep an eye out for new ones. Suggest you do the same.<P>------------------<BR>--Girlfriend in a coma (I know, I know it's serious)

sweetpea - It sounds to me like you're being VERY rational, putting all the pieces together. I've been following your story and remember reading a post of yours a while back that described Fact 5. I thought about that a lot, because it always seemed to me that that was the most telling evidence of your H's infidelity. I mean, guys don't DO that (if they don't want to get busted for harassment) unless they have a sexual relationship with the woman. (I think my response to your post then said something like this.) I also think that even when cheaters DO confess (which is like pulling eye-teeth) they still tend to minimize what they did. From your description, it does sound (I hate to say) like this is what your H is doing.<P>Hey, don't let either your H or your couples counselor try and convince you you're crazy. Stick to your guns. If it's any consolation, I'm getting this very same kind of treatment from W and couples counselor since I confronted her with seeing her and OM together. Hang in there, my friend! Regards and blessings,<P>--Wex

Hi again sweetpea. You're doing fine. And thinking about things is o.k.<BR>I can understand that as the waiting period gets longer the more things turn and turn in our head.<BR>However pay attention sometimes things are not just white an black:<BR>Fact1 - it seems too much for coincidence. Do keep in mind, however, that even if nothing was on at the time she could be trying to make some trouble between you guys, and usually "inocent"comments are known to work quite well.<BR>Fact2- my h also denied discussing us with her, however she seemed to know a lot about it. What's the truth? Well she was very good at gauging what he was feeling - and better at using it to influence him - , she also used to make comments about us, and get her conclusions by his reactions if not by his words. And yes sometimes he might have said this or that, but in the middle of a conversation where all he was thinking was her, how would he remember? I know now that it was a mix of all this in my case, Not necessarily that he was choosing to discuss us with her..<P>fact3 - go back to fact 1. If she was trying something she would probably work on both of you.<P>Fact 4- counseling is a "scary" time. People are not confortable at first, they're afraid of what their answers might bring, they feeling bad for being on the wrong... should I go on?<P>Fact 5 - well that one... it depends on how your h is, you know him better. Could it be a joke ( bad joke I admit)? a slip? Just one of those things? AT a party ( I think it was an halloween party too ) long time ago - maybe 8 years - one of the women who was invited got a bit tipsy and started "feeling" every guy in sight. Nobody really payed much attention to her, but I noticed that a lot of the guys didn't really avoid it, even though they were in stable relationships and weren't even thining about anything else. I know it's not exactly the same thing but sometimes I think if it's not a male ( wait! Don't kill me yet guys: not all male population, O.K.?) thing not to let something like that pass even though they don't have anything else in mind?<P>Now sweetpea, I'm not saying I am giving you the right answers. What I'm saying is that along with other interpretations that could be taken in account too, there are more, and sometimes the truth is not here or there. The saying "I call them as I see them" as many holes in it.<P>Again your questions are valid, and what you're feeling is too. Don't think I'm overlooking that, but what you need to know is: what kind of life together do you want to have from now on? One where doubts are present at any moment, and you're either wrong - which won't save you the worries and the bad moments where you're just trying to figure out where he is - or you are right - and on top of all the worries for days and days, you will feel the pain . Or one where you choose to trust, and make an effort to relax, and either it was justified and you'll live happily ever after ( kind of thing ), or it's not justified - and you will feel the pain, but would have spend some good times free of worry -. The results seem the same, but really aren't. There's a risk in everything we do. ANd we can get hurt by mostly any action ( ours or from others ). If we're going to worry about that on a regular basis, we don't really live fully, since basic instinct gets us to close to avoid pain. Sometimes we just have to "jump". yes we might get hurt, but we might not. The choice is ours.<BR>Once again please don't think I'm dismissing your feelings and thoughts, I just feel that sometimes we are so focused on certain things that we waist possible positive things, good solutions, because of it.<BR>DO take care<BR>Kat<P><BR>------------------<BR>Each and everyone of us is deserving of a kind word, a gentle thought, and the gift of understanding.<p>[This message has been edited by Kat1 (edited October 03, 1999).]

I am doing the same kind of obsessing right now and I've been asking myself when I should stop or when I will be able to stop. I know I need to stop asking questions, but I just keep finding small things that imply that he is lying. I know if I don't stop asking questions and give him some time, he is just going to say forget it soon. I just get so angry when I think about the fact that I could piss him off and he could decide to leave after all he has done. Why do they deserve so much pampering? I'm tired of it but soon I will have to stop asking questions or leave myself. Sad...but true.

Hey Sweet Pea and all the rest of you that are reading this,<P>I think you are being totally rational!! I have known for 4 months now about my H affair of 2 years. He told me himself but I have felt all along that there were too many things missing for me to feel as though I knew enough to move forward. I posted recently about wanting to confront the OW-I was so angry about some lies she has told her H-they of course incriminate my H. My H told me he didn't want to hurt me any more. Well, it hurts to know that neither the OW nor my H is accepting their part in the affair enough to be totally honest. I can undeerstand their desire to hide things since the more they did wrong the more it works against them. But I just had too many questions to relax. My H has been more than happy to try now to show me he wants to be with me-problem is I want to know why he ever felt a need to screw my best friend and why she felt the need to screw my H. Well, I found out this past week. First let me tell you it hurts to know any details!!! I am not tlaking sexual details as I am sure I could never even hug my H again if I knew any of those details-I don't want those. But I couldnt understand how they had a 2 year affair (off and on) but there were supposedly no feelings. I couldn't understand how they had a 2 yr affair and fooled around just twice ............ These things didn't add up-why have a 2 year affair if there was so little going on? Well, as I suspected there was much more depth to the affair. Gawd it hurt to ehar it. But I now feel much better knowing that I wasn't trying to dwell on the situation as I have been accused of doing and I wasn't off my rocker by wondering the things I was. I knew my H couldn't just go have an affair with no feelings-he is a geat guy with feelings! The bottom line is-they were both to blame no matter who started it and no matter who ended it. Both had ample opportunity to say NO many many times. Until they BOTH are able to admit to their TOTAL involvment they are still in denial-and I think that it is unfair for them to not have to be totally truthful. If you feel the need to find out things that don't add up to you then you have every right to get those answers. You probably can't focus on NOW until you do. I know I couldn't. This past week has been super trying for me-I have wished myself dead for all the pain I am feeling. I will continue to live day to day and let my ehart guide me. I don't know where I will be tomorrow or the next day. I do not know if H and I will make it. But I do know that I never stopped loving him and I know I feel better for knowing all. I hope you can get your answers also-maybe you need a new counsler?????<P>best wishes for great success-<P>*heartache*

Thanks to all who replied.<P>Yes, Wex, your thinking is the same as mine about my H rubbing up against Cafe Woman's butt. In 30 years of knowing him, I have <B>never</B> seen him behave that way toward another woman--no matter how drunk he was. Sure, he's flirted around a little--with kidding remarks, etc., but nothing out of the way--but has kept his hands (and other parts of his anatomy) to himself..at least, publicly. So, I feel very sure that something sexual happened between them.<P>Kat, Fact #1 came almost on the heels of my asking him if he was in love with someone else. Also, Cafe Woman was obviously very angry with both him and me. Angry glares cast in our direction and virtually ignoring me as far as speaking to me (she was supposed to be <B>our</B> friend!). The catty remark about my weight was also totally unlike her. My take on it is that my H broke it off with her out of fear of being caught, and she was POd big-time about it. I think that my H may have intended to start back up with her--hence the butt-rubbing incident. However, she's been with the new BF for nearly a year now, so maybe she's gone on...<P> I really don't think she would have done anything to cause trouble between us unless there had already been something between them. I also think that she would back him up in his lies if I confronted her.<P> There are a couple of other women in the past with whom I also suspect my H may have had a "fling". The H of one of them accused my H of trying to "f***" her during a party--I had also had the same thought cross my mind during the same party, but shoved it back. I <B>did</B> ask her recently if my H had made a "pass" or something at her (didn't want to put her on the defensive). She said that he had been "sorta all over her" but that he hadn't done anything out of the way. Now, she quite often goes out to bars by herself and usually gets very drunk--and has been known to leave with other men. Also during that time frame, it seemed that everytime we went out anywhere, she would show up. H thinks her H is a sorry, no-good SOB and says that he is insanely jealous (which supposedly accounts for his behavior at the party). That doesn't exactly ring true to me; if he's so jealous, why was she always out at bars <B>alone</B>? Anyway, I sort of think that my H sees himself as a "Knight in Shining Armor" type...maybe these women make him feel heroic in defending them? I dunno.<P>The other woman I suspect is, quite frankly, a slut. She has been known to go after married men (preferably ones who she thinks are financially well-off), and her standard MO is to try to cause trouble by calling the wife and telling the wife that her H is cheating on her. Then, the wife will start b****ing at her H--and drive him straight into her waiting arms. I got such a call, and didn't bite. She was also showing up everywhere we went. My H's brother was working for H at the time, and he started cheating on his fiancee with her best friend.<BR>And, my son was only about 8 years old at the time, but he made a comment one night about whether I thought Daddy had a girlfriend. My H would often take our son along on service calls (that OW was having plumbing problems then), and I now think that he must have seen something that put that thought into his head. This was long before the STD tramp.<P>As you can see, my trust in my whole marriage has been seriously eroded. I can trace a change in my H's behavior toward me back to 1974--when I was pregnant with our second child. Before then, he had <B>never</B> been nasty to me or treated me with disrespect. It wasn't until last year, though, that he lost sexual interest in me or had difficulty with sexual performance with me (I think because of emotional involvement this time). Thankfully, that problem seems to have gone away. The sex life is back on track and as good as it ever was. <P>Anyway, I'm still plagued with the lies. If he's in town over lunchtime and I have to be out of town on business at that time, I'm plagued with the thought that he might be taking advantage of my not being in town and going to Cafe Woman's restaurant. I'm just hoping that since our daughter now knows that her dad <B>did</B> cheat on me at one point and that he's not supposed to go around Cafe Woman, H will avoid the possibility of her catching him there.<P> Anyway, thanks to all of you for responding to this.