I just got the book love must be tough by James Dobson

Interesting concept may be I should sit her down or write her a letter putting boundaries
To her behavior.
I know I’m in plan A I’m thinking of giving her this letter or telling her all this
Need some input. please

Dear WW

When we got married I did not force your hand and you did not force mine into it
We both chose each other as husband and wife.

We never fought never argued we always respected each other, I took care
Of everything since the day we moved in together, and still do till this day.

We started growing apart a few years after DD was born. GOD knows I tried
To get through to you but I did everything wrong, I didn’t know at the time.
I begged pleaded, cried, told you how much you meant to me and how much I
Loved you, but all this made you lose your respect for me, made you feel more trapped
And pushed you further away. And this was way before OM came into the picture.
I’m sorry.
I’m sorry for my part of paving the road to you’re A

I’m not sorry for doing whatever it took to uncover it.

You need to know that the A must end it’s destroying our family, your losing friends
Over it and you will lose more friends.

The A is your choice I will not take any blame for it all the blame and guilt should be on your shoulders. And you’re the only one that could stop it before anything bad happens.

I know the PA is still going on, I know you’re wasting the family’s money to support the A and in my opinion this is wrong.

You need to know that every time you’re with OM I hurt.
The pain is unbearable, you could not imagine how hurtful it is to see the person you love, lose her heart to a fantasy that is not real.
You are the best thing that ever happened to me in my life and I’m losing you for a fantasy.

Well I’ve been doing some soul searching lately, and I think I’m done being a doormat
I’m done being disrespected,
You told me you didn’t want divorce, but you’re not willing to give up the OM
You keep telling me he is your best friend, and that the PA is not going on anymore
It’s only an EA.
Well I know that the PA is still going on I know every time you have been together

Physically and I can not tolerate that anymore, it hurts way beyond belief, and I know hurt
I’ve been hurt too many times in my life; nothing even comes close to what I’m feeling now.

I’ve always been dedicated to our family to our marriage and to you.
I still am and I will do what ever it takes to save our family our marriage
And our way of life.

I’m will make our house a happy home a sanctuary for us and for the kids.

A place where love rules a place where kids can play without fear of being yelled at or judged, a place for you and me, you keep telling me it wont be the same, of course it wont be the same look where our actions led us, it should and will be better, I promise you that
And you know I can keep a promise.

I will give you some time to think but you need to decide between your families
Or your fantasy, knowing that the fantasy will not last, and the OM will not be always
They’re for you but your family will.

I still love you with all my heart.

Please notice when humans are in pain or fear, we use "never, everything, always, anything, every time, forever, ever, etc." These aren't our adult truths...they are our kid inside who is wishful and may tell an untruth (I did that tomorrow already!) without the intention of lying.

I began revising your letter...until it was unrecognizable in the first two paragraphs...I'm sorry, I had to stop. These are your words.

Tell me what your intent is, please? You said you want to put boundaries around your WW...which is impossible. Boundaries only go around us...

Do you want her to know your goal, what eats at your heart, your truth? Or do you want to make her do something? Or stop doing it?


Dear WW

We both chose each other as husband and wife.

(this paragraph says you're entitled, you lived without conflict...and avoiding conflict does not mean not living without it...are you sure this is what you want to convey)
We never fought never argued we always respected each other, I took care of everything since the day we moved in together, and still do till this day.
(the above paragraph says she isn't needed...you did everything...she was along for the ride...useless and childlike)

We started growing apart a few years after DD was born. I tried to become close to you again, in my old ways, but I now know I was did everything wrong, I didn't know at the time.

I believe I begged pleaded and cried. I believe I told you how much you meant to me and how much I loved you. When I did this, did you lose your respect for me? Did you feel trapped? If you felt pushed further away, way before OM came into the picture, I'm sorry. I'm sorry for my part in the state of the marriage before your choice of an A.

Please know my boundary...I cannot remain your husband when you continue to choose your A over your marriage. A's destroy families...means losing your husband, child, your friends...because a marriage is for two people...three breaks it apart, along with the hearts within it.

The A is your choice. I know you own you are choosing this instead of recovering our marriage and working on making it a wonderful one...as long as you continue to have contact.

I am not responsible for your choice. I cannot make you have an A. I cannot drive you away. I respect you choose as I choose.

I know the PA is still going on. I know you're using our family's money to support the A. This is wrong.

Each time you're with OM, I hurt. Each contact, word spoken, hurts. My pain is unbearable; you could not imagine how hurtful it is to see the person you love, lose her heart to a fantasy.

I believe you are the best thing that ever happened to me in my life and I'm having a really hard time realizing I am losing you to a fantasy.

Well I've been doing some soul searching lately, and I know I believe I have chosen to be a doormat in my desperation to save my marriage. I will no longer accept being disrespected. I heard you tell me you didn't want divorce, and you're not willing to give up the OM. Is this still your truth?

I heard you tell me he is your best friend, and that the PA is not going on anymore; that it's only an EA.

Physically and I can not tolerate this pain anymore. I hurt way beyond belief, and I believe I know pain in my life--nothing even comes close to what I'm feeling now.

I believe I've been dedicated to our family, our marriage and you. I still am. My goal is to do what ever it takes to save our family and our marriage. Our way of life.

I pledge to you to be respectful--to do my part to make home a sanctuary for us and for the kids.

A place where love rules a place where kids can play without fear of being yelled at or judged. A place for you and me.

I hear you tell me you believe it won't be the same. I agree. With what I'm learning and realizing, it can only be amazing. I promise you that. And you know I can keep a promise.

I am asking you to decide between your family or your fantasy, knowing that the fantasy will not last, and the OM will not be always there for you...your family will. Your own integrity will be...if you choose.

I still love you with all my heart.

Joe

Okay...I have to run...hope this helps. I believe in you, your heart and mind...hope I didn't disrespect you in my rewrite...I do get carried away, Joe...that is me, not you!

It wouldn't take my submit...you moved your post! Looks like I revised anyway, huh?

LA

What took you so long huh.

what I ment by boundaries is that I will not tolerate being a doormat and that she had to chose between her family and her fantasy, you relayed it great in your rewrite.
and yes I'm trying to get her to drop the relationship with OM, I want her to know my hurt, and my goal.

Thank you so much for revising, you know I've been always bad with words, maybe because english is my 3rd language,
I find it hard to find the right words, you are great LA.
I was hoping you rewright my thoughts.

thank you again.

English as a third language...wow...you do really well.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Hey, I edit novels as a side job...so it's virtually automatic with me.

Watch for me changing your content, though...

Now, boundaries are around you...and I backed out a time limit. You need one. "I am asking you to choose" after the paragraph where you said you can't take the pain anymore...what is your time frame on her choosing? One day? Three days? One week?

Boundaries are more about enforcement...not threats. You have to back up what you say by laying out your enforcements. Are you willing to file for separation and have her removed from the house? Have you researched your legal options?

Better to have done that first, 'k?

What took me so long! LOL...work...then you moving the post negated me getting to get mine up...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LA

I was just kidding LA I'm surprised you find time to write
Back you have helped me tremendously, with easing my pain I always look forward
To your reply.

I didn’t research any legal option I’m not ready for separation I still have a lots of work
To do in plan A.

I just needed her to see how painful her choices are and pressing the NC, she never agreed on that she claims they are good friends and she is not willing to give him up.

Now the pastor called me yesterday and asked me for more time he will get back with me
On Tuesday, he asked me not to tell OMW yet he agreed that she needs to know at this
Time it might hinder his investigation.
And he told me that he believes that “when you shine the light on the darkness it will go away.”
Hope he is right.

I talked to her dad this morning told him that I loved his daughter and I want to save my marriage, and I needed their help, he said we couldn’t do anything, I asked him not to validate her position, he asked me if we would go to counseling I told him I would appreciate it if they talked her into it, but she doesn’t want to go.
I mentioned to that the PA did and still is happening in spite her denying it ever happening.
And that I considered them as my own family and that we need to sit down and talk about it with her mom, he said mom wouldn’t talk unless WW is present I told him absolutely.
So I don’t know if he is going to do anything, but I needed to tell him that, her mom wouldn’t talk about this with me.

Now wish me luck.

If this is your intent...to communicate your pain due to her choice in contacting, then we need a rewrite...again.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Can you re-read what you wrote and find the manipulation? This isn't a put down or an attack by me...this is a good lesson in how your marriage worked before...and you probably were not aware of it.

You want your pain to be heard, understood...and for her to act to stop your pain.

She's fog-brained, Joe...until she goes no contact and through withdrawal, she cannot stop your pain.

Understanding this inside you is important. Getting that you are both separate and equal human beings--you can only control you; she can only control her is really important.

Now, boundaries are about you...she makes her choices and you make yours. I hear you want to really do a great Plan A...give that your very best. Manipulation cannot be in Plan A...continues the pre-A dance which contributed to the state of the marriage.

How about keeping an anger journal? Something safe to yourself...where you can really let yourself go...express your pain and the anger coming from it...your fears and the anger coming from that...

What's your take on working out at a gym? Ever do it? Best pain management I experienced. What do you think?

I hear your pain, your suffering, your anguish. So does everyone else here. They know it. You are not alone. You are not crazy, defective or inferior to anyone at any time. Those are facts.

You are taking steps...talking to her folks, talking to the pastor (I am SOOOO against his approach, by the way)...set a deadline on pastor...unless he informs OMW within one week, then you will. Did you communicate your pain to him? Did he recommend anything for you in pursuit to save your marriage?

Does he have a boss? A board to go to?

LA

I told you I don't know what the heck I'm doing.

I'm going to give the pastor less then a week before I expose to OMW. I think he is the top of the chain.I will
inquire about that.

I think his hands are tight because of no physical evidence
unless OM is confronted and he confesses than it''s a different story.
I know I'm taking a gamble on this but I have to give him
a few days.
and like I said it might end OM's job.
Oh yes I called her after I talked to her dad and I told her that I did clarify some things for him and asked him for his help in saving my family, and my marriage.
she said ok but they wouldn't get involved you know,I told her maybe not but I had to try, no hard feelings their I was relived.

thanks for the words of encouragment.

Does any word get through the fog or I'm just wasting my breath.
and how to get to WW to stop the A and the contact if she is in the Fog and thinks OM is her best friend, sounds like a catch 22 to me.

any suggestions...
Please!!!!!!!!

You are wasting your breath. Trying to reason with a fogged out WS is like trying to reason with a falling down drunk. Why even bother?

The only thing that will break through the fog is EXPOSURE. It is like turning on the light in the crack house. Do you think the crack heads like smoking crack when everyone is watching? This is why exposure is ruinous to affairs. As soon as you expose it, I suspect the affair will quickly crumble.

I am getting worried that this pastor is covering up for the OM, though. The OM SHOULD lose his job. Such a man cannot be in a position of authority in a church. If that doesn't happen, I would broaden your exposure to the church BOARD.

Joe,

I remember where you are now...that deep need to get through...if only's are involved.

If only she would see from my eyes;
If only she would feel my pain;
If only she would understand the devastation.

Complete those sentences, and you've got: then she would stop her A immediately.

I remember. It isn't unreasonable, unless you're wayward.

Those if only's are in every family where somone is on drugs, alcohol, gambling...and I've learned when I'm living in my if only's, then I'm not living in my power.

I want you to live in your power of choice...exposure, as you are doing, is sharing truth; Plan A is choosing to examine, understand, accept and change your beliefs to be wholly a respectful person, living in God's dynamic design.

There is no choice in if only or a what if...there is fantasy. Much like the fantasy waywards conceive before they take apart their lives.

You captured the painful status of being betrayed really well: I told you I don't know what the heck I am doing.

If you've been living a doing life...doing for, doing about, fixing, pleasing, earning love...then this place you're in right now is incredibly confusing, difficult, and frightening because it appears powerless, doesn't it?

It's why I encourage you to make a new approach to your life...move closer to the state of being, not doing. Not extremes, here...you don't stop your efforts to expose, or to act respectful...you change your intent.

You are used to choosing your actions based on possible response. As a BS, this will eat up your own skin. WW is impervious to previous manipulation...I believe, a lot of being wayward is retaliation for manipulation...doesn't it feel manipulative to you? A lot of justification for having an A comes from believing they are controlled, deprived, manipulated and cornered...all those ingredients in entitlement...which is hardened resentment...which is why you cannot get through this fog...it is a protection from manipulation...they have stopped your influence believing it is how you control them.

You are asking your WW to see the damage, feel the pain, because your dear wife wouldn't countenance this...but your WW ignores it. You are asking your WW to examine herself, which is the opposite of fantasy, isn't it?

I'm asking you to stop asking her for reality. I am asking you to live in reality, example it, own it...begin choosing your actions from your own code of standards and boundaries, and stop focusing on her.

Know your own fears...hold them, realize you choose some of your actions from them...and then to stop acting from fear.

I want you to choose to act from love...of your very being, your existence...your choice to love her is your choice. No fake pleasantness...you can smile like the sun when you are filled with great memories. You would love smiling like that for yourself...finding and filling her ENs as your power of choice, would help fill you with love instead of pain, if you would do it from your reality and not her response.

Her response is kicking your Plan A down the drain. You can't control her--you are separate and equal...limited to only control yourself; same for her. Intent matters--choose your actions, in your way, from your heart...and not from her response.

This is where trusting God helps a lot. When you begin to be true to yourself, your goal, your desires, then you get out of his way...if you are busy trying to get your WW to do or stop doing stuff, then where can God get in?

You are an equal force in your marriage as your WW. You are completely whole, marvelously made and loved long before you were born. Live in that truth right now, break your response-based intent from years of doing it, and accept, love, admire, appreciation and understand yourself. Take great self-care right now...nuturing your body, heart, soul and spirit. Approve of yourself, Joe...listen to those nudges in you...hear and examine them...know where they come from...the past or your present...or if you're jumping to a future that isn't here.

Find all your payoff in believing you can control what you cannot, by human design...know that payoff...see it for what it really is...a sad, artificial substitute for living love.

You can do this. You are worth every thought and moment, every effort to know and be known...and so is your marriage.

LA

Thanks ML I have the same feeling about the pastor to
I'm going to give him his last call in a few days,it's been
almost a week now for his investigation to be at the end.

thanks a milion for the advice.

I think us BS are in some sort of a fog to, sometimes we need an outside kik in the *** so we can see what's going on.
I like your threads by tha way, you tell it as it is.
hope you have a great week end.
feel free to kik me when ever you see me foged up.

213601,

FWW here! With my wayward .02.

Exposure is certainly the most effective way of getting through to someone in the fog.

Allowing time to pass while meeting her most important EN's is also helpful.

Everyone's fog experience is different, but I'm gonna tell you what kicked me square in the a55 and got me out of the fog.

I noticed you have kids. Does your wife love them? Does she live for them (like I do my kids!)? If the anwers to these questions are yes, then try hitting her with them. I know it sounds like you're using your kids as collateral, but if it gets her out of the fog, it'll be worth it. Spend as much time together as a family. Subtly remind her of all the wonderful times you've had together as a family. Talk about all the wonderful childhood milestones you are looking forward to sharing with her and your kids. Tell her what an awesome mom she is. Tell her how much her children (and you!) love her, and tell her this often.

Like I said, different things work for different people, so maybe this won't work for your wife, but it did for me, so I thought I'd pass it on.

Oh, one more thing. I believe it was Uzzah who kicked me in the a55 with these words (not a direct quote here)....
Think about how you will need to split up the time you spend with your kids with your ex-H. Think about the odds of them even liking the OM. Kids aren't stupid (even very young ones), they know this OM caused mommy and daddy to split up. Statistics show only 25% of A's last, and IMO, that's probably on the high side. Think about how your children will constantly be crushed by having to chose their loyalty between parents, taking sides, playing parent against parent to get their way. Your kids will never look at you or act the same around either parent, ever again.

So, if you have to, use these statements to shock her out of the fog. But start gently.

All my best,

KJ

Hi KJ I was waiting for some insite from a FWW, you read my mind.
yes she loves the kids,but she is been pushing them away lately, yelling at them most of the time, she doesn't want
to do anything with them, I know it's the fog, I will try your approach, I'm working on the full exposure to.

thank you.

hi.. i am also a FWW, back in my fog, i also pushed the kids away... not physically.. but i spend as little time with them as i could.. i neglected them emotionally.. i still cooked for them, did the laundry etc, but i hardly ever spent any quality time with them. I was too wrapped up in my little world.

The one thing that woke me up out of the fog, was one statement my husband said to me... Since the beginning of my EA, he always said.. i will always love you, i will always wait for you... then one day... he announced: You have nothing to worry about anymore, i dont love you anymore.

At first i didnt even believe him, i figured he was trying to get me mad or whatever, but i didnt believe him... but it ate at me... a few weeks later my EA was over.

Even though i had told him, get on with your life, etc, i never filed for divorce, i played with the thought a few times, but never did it. I figured i had the best of both worlds.. up until that day.. when reality slapped me in the face. I had to loose what i thought i didnt want to begin with, to realize i didnt want to loose it after all.

Uhm, Joe? I am a FWW, also.

Just wanted you to know that...thought I'd mentioned it. And KJ has great insights, so she's needed for her posts...just wanted to make sure you knew you were listening to an FWW here...as well as a FBS.

I will add in my WW state, that the entitlement, which was fueled by resentment and lack of respect (the ingredients to becoming wayward), wasn't only in me from my partner's actions...they spilled everywhere...including my sons. I resented them in the same manner...I'd given and given, sacrificed for and I wasn't getting back what I wanted, what I put in.

With younger children, I don't know...that would be glaringly indefensible...mine were teens and older. Easier maybe? I do know the image of a good mother mattered to me...greatly. Good mothers don't leave their children...and I was prepared to do that. I didn't. So what KJ says is a solid truth to work from. I just wanted to widen your perception of how far the fog goes...

Because it is fog, not reality. Asking if your WW loves her kids would be you asking if she loves you...and then acting from your determination of it...I don't want you to do that...fantasy...it's not real love...not about not loving her own children...it is a twisted, tormented, miscontrued state where every choice looks one way and is another.

LA

HI endoftheroad

thanks for your humble reply I tought of this aproach
she did tell me to go find somebody else, I replied
don't tell me what to do, I'm not intrested in anybody else.

I always told her that I loved her and still do.
may be I should tell her this I know I asked her if she was acting this way so I would stop loving her she said NO.

so I might try that.

Thanks for the input.
maybe I should change my post to caling FWW for inside comment.

endoftheroad,

Isn't that something, how one sentence can just smack you in the face and make you do a 180?! Your statement about your h telling you he didn't love you anymore, wow, that must've hit hard. I remember when my H and I were in MC over 8 years ago (not 'cuz of an A, but having very tough times). My oldest was only 2. He said he just didn't know what else he could do, that we needed to decide what to do with our son. OMG, I about died right then. Picturing my son without either one of us in his life, full-time, just put me over the edge.

I too played with the thought of filing for divorce, even met with an attorney. Strange, isn't it, how neither of us ever went through with it? Do you think there is a subconscious part of us that knew we'd never leave?!

Pushing the kids away. Sounds like several of us WW's did that. Now, if you feel one ounce of the love for your kids as I do mine, tell me the fog isn't a state of mental illness. God help me, I pray I never have Satan inside me ever again. I have no other way of describing how a woman could put her children out to dry and forget about them. It makes me physically ill to this day when I think about what I almost did to them. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Blessings,

KJ

BUMP UP

Is this bump a "Calling all FWW's?" Dorry, Jean36...there are a few...

How are you doing, Joe?

LA

Hi LA
Yes I needed as much inside info from FWW as I can get.

Today I'm not doing well at all.

I don't know how to get pass her destructive actions.
How to get through the pain, how to act happy when happiness
Is been a stranger to me for a while. How to act happy when nothing is going right.

Yesterday I was playing In the backyard with the kids, she got angry because she was waiting for us to go have lunch, it was too early for lunch she didn’t even say anything till we went inside, then she Kind a sarcastically said I’ve been waiting for you to finish whatever you where doing
So we could go have lunch, I said sorry but next time inform me of you’re status so I can
Organize my time, we where just playing outside, you could have interrupted, instead of getting angry.

I know it’s the fog but it’s so hard and painful when the one you love is an alien acting
This way, especially when She acts very happy around her friends, she actually is her own self around her friends
So I don’t understand, why she switches moods when she is with us, especially me.

At this point she is not willing to let the OM go, she keeps telling me he is only a friend
And we are not having SF anymore. Yes right …

How can I get over the pain? How can I stop crying? How can I be happy when everything in my life is crumbling down like an avalanche?

And how can I tell my 6 yrs old D and my 7 Yrs old S, that OM is not a good guy,
He is a stranger, and I don’t want them to talk to him or take anything from him,
When my WW told them already that OM is mommy’s friend?

This is very important to me.

Oh yes I was going to copy and past some of the replies I got from FWW and give them to my WW maybe she gets some insight. I already told her that this is an addiction, she said "i'm not adicted to anything".
So is that a good Idea?