Aptiva, I hope you find a way to work through your bitterness and come out with your marriage intact. I know it's dark right now, but if you start using MB principles, you can recover.

Its not really bitterness Longhorn just a fact, I`m so tired of reading how some can forget and usually somewhere down the road they regain their memory. Longhorn I do pratice the MB`s and it does work pretty good but the best thing that does help is honesty. The honesty to trust in your spouse that they can deal with the truth and go on from there, with out that I don`t really think MB can help. I`m sure this lady has a gut feeling she IS still being lied to and she may be right, if that is what she really feels then she should question her husband more till she is satisfied. I`m sure if she keeps up the questions her hubby may have a memory recall at some point down the road just as mine did.That is only when she can go on with her marriage and learn to trust him because he did finally tell her all. Time will tell Longhorn.

WS-Speak: "I don't remember" = "I do, but prefer not to recall because I think it will hurt you and make me feel ashamed of what I did."

or I really do remember but don`t want to tell you so you won`t really know what I was doing.

How are things going with you?

Well, it definetly has been a roller coaster of emotions. He still is good w/ answering any questions, sometimes I hear in his voice maybe a slight frustration like I have already told you this before, maybe I'm just being over sensitive and I want him to kiss my butt lol., but I have asked him, are you getting frustrated, don't you remember the things you've read, same questions, over and over, long road ahead ect? He always says I didn't mean for it to come out that way if it did, I'm sorry, so I think I'm just very over sensitive to his behaviour. Some are the same questions and some of them he says he can't remember, whch I have read that if someone really feels guilty about something, they do forget or suppress it because they want to forget it.

I now am just going through the feelings of what was wrong with me, I have always taken care of myself and have stayed fit and in good shape. He says it had nothing to do with me. He says he doesn't know why, that I have a hard time with. He says our M was good then so it's really confusing. We have talked alot and he says since then he never did anything like that again that he has been faithful to me since. He said he has had alot of guilt over the years (i never felt that) but didn't ever want to risk losing me and our family and he said our Marriage always got better. I hope that MC helps, we start on the 19th.
I still have a hard time with affection. Sometimes I feel like when I'm having a bad moment,(especially evenings) sometimes I feel like he gets distant. I feel like he should be trying harder to give me affection. I told him this and he said he would work on it but that he needs me to give him affection too on my own, not to always have him inititate it. Should I be initiating affection? Plus we are going through ALOT with his medical cond. & he hasn't been feeling well at all. So I need to understand that too. So thats my update. Still any advice from any of you would be great! I'm still struggling with believing that was the last time. Sometimes I really do believe him. He says to me, did you see any signs of me cheating again, and I always have to remind him, no, but if it weren't for the crabs I never would have suspected the ONS. He reminded that we have always been together, he always calls when he's gone, or if hes running late, always called me from work, he doesn't go out with friends or anything, we always do that together. But if he was going to do a ONS again, I'm sure he could have found sometime. Someone told me not to worry or pursue that with him right now that we will talk about that in counceling. His past when we were engaged has been bothering me too. But I don't know if I should let the Pre-marriage bother me, if we should just work on ONS and then our M now.

Thanks for asking how I was doing. CRYING ALOT!!!

Yes I know it is a roller coaster and may be for some time as I am there too.You hubby sounds alike like mine. The only difference between yoursand mine is, I have proof, I just need mine to admit it to my face and for him to understand why he has done this all these years.I do have days when he and I show affection but then theres that days when I can`t bear to look at him and the questions begin again. Yes I have cried till my eyes felt like they were gonna fall out, I have also felt like I can`t go on in this marriage no longer, there are so many emotions its just terrible.Im sure you feel them all and will for some time.But you do want to work on your marriage and are going to MC thats a good thing maybe more will come out there.I know we must let go of the past and forgive but it does take time and patience.Don`t try and think of showing affection right now, just try and do things together even if it is small things, the affection may come naturally.My que to my WH was I would tell him I was having a bad day and he would say everything will be alright and hold me.It helped some.Talk to your MC let him/her know the emotions you are feeling they can help you.
Is your H still reading this site with you? I hope he is,he sounds like he is trying. Keep in touch.

Wanting,

I read the first page of this thread and then the this last page. I know you are hurt and I know you are frustrated. I am NOT going to apologize for your H's behavior as it was plain and simple wrong.

You are not the first poster to come here over the years I have been here having just found out about a long ago affair. All have asked essentially the same questions and particularly how could they have lied about it all of this time. I have thought about this alot and I have reached a conclusion that may or may not help you.

They did NOT lie all of those years...they denied all of those years. Apart from anything else that may or may not have happened in your marriage and for the moment let's assume that your "gut" is a pretty good and sensitive one as it has proven so far, and that he has been honest. What he has been doing is "denying", now some including my might call it lying but the purpose is a bit different. The purpose is to not gain something but to avoid losing something...YOU. In short, YOU counted to him.

He also gave you the reason he did not do it again. You stated it in your first post, but it is not phrased as you would like HIS reason to be so you are rejecting his answer hoping that he will read your mind and tell you what you want to hear, in the words you have in YOUR head, in a way that meets your choice of phrase. It doesn't often happen that way. Listen carefully to the man, and take what he says in the context of how he handles other things in life, how he normally speaks and how much/little he speaks of feelings specifically his.

As to how it could happen, I am guessing you were both YOUNG. I am guessing he was not particularly mature when you two married. I am therefore guessing that he did not fully appreciate the gravity of a "quicky" with a girl that chased him UNTIL he got the crabs and had to face YOU. I am betting the boy grew up real fast right about then. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> It sounds as if from what you said, he learned his lesson and has not repeated it. I could be wrong, your "gut" could be wrong, and he could be lying, but you have no evidence of it, and your "gut" is something you should trust until proven otherwise.

Having said all of this, you should feel deeply hurt and betrayed, and you should ask whatever questions you need to heal. But, remember one thing the man you have standing before you NOW, is not the boy that did what he did. Just maybe he learned his lesson, in which case you just might be one of the very lucky one that will NEVER have to go through this again.

Just some thoughts, I am truely sorry this has happened to you, and I hope that you and your H can take all of this and learn from it. I suspect one thing he has not learned is how much you would be hurt...That piece of information I think he knew, hence the denial for all of these years.

God Bless,

JL

thanks JL for the advise. Yes you are correct in saying we were young when it happened, I was 21 he was 23. I really haven't been able to trust my gut on whether or not there have been more. True I haven't had any suspicions over the years but again w/o the crabs I would have not suspected a thing.

I'm sorry but what do you mean when you said,

"Listen carefully to the man, and take what he says in the context of how he handles other things in life, how he normally speaks and how much/little he speaks of feelings specifically his."

He doens't really do much reassuring other than wanting to be w/ me or hold my hand or say I love you, doesnt say much else, but when I start asking questions ect. he doesn't say or do the reassuring things I need or want to hear, it's usually I already told you, then I become more upset then he seems to become distant and not say much. Maybe because I'm confusing I don't know, all I know is I need the reassurance. Him telling me, holding me during those times. Thanks again

Wanting,

You said earlier
You asked
See the first quote. He is telling you many things but you want to hear it differently. It is not likely to come to you differently. More importantly is the manner he said the things I bolded similar to how he speaks and handles other things? If so, then you are getting the "real" him. Listen to him.

You then say something that made me laugh. No not at you or even with you, but at myself and my experiences here. You said
He is reassuring you, but not in the way you want is it. I was laughing because over the years I have been accused of NOT being sensitive enough or reassuring enough to some posters. I really see no need for the approach most women seem to like and often use here. I am NOT putting them down, but it is not my style and I am a problem solver not an emotional soft place to fall.

If you reread my post to you, it is not very reassuring and "there, there, it will be alright" am I. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Be honest, you really cannot hurt me. The point is to get to the point, discuss the issues and see if I can help. But, HELP means to me putting your marriage back together NOT making you feel better with my words. I am fully confident as you recover your marriage, as you put the marriage back together YOU will feel better based on your and your H's actions NOT any words I might say to reassure you.

Now if you want your H to say specific words hand him a script and tell him to read it to you. I doubt that would satisfy you either because you have put words in his mouth. What you seem to be hearing are HIS words in his voice. That may not be enough for you. IT is your call.

Now there is one other thing you need to realize and appraise him of. He has known about this for 15 years or so. He has come to some accomodation about it over this time, he knows the full story, and HE knows if he is telling you the truth, if he loves you, and how he feels inside. YOU on the other hand know none of these things and you have just heard about all of this, so it is very new to you. I would strongly suggest that you point these things out to him and tell him that while he has handled this stuff in his mind it is going to take awhile for you to do so. Further, since you are NOT a mindreader you are going to need his help in telling you what he is thinking and feeling. Your assumptions about his good heart and intentions have been shattered. You now need to rebuild on solid knowledge and information and ONLY he can provide it and help rebuild this marriage.

Wanting, I have kids older than you two were then. I also know from experience that most men don't really reach emotional maturity until about 30. None of this excuses his affair, but it does mean your H is not the same man most likely. It is up to him to show you this, but realize this during your recovery, it will help YOU.

God Bless,

JL

JL, thanks again for responding. I don't find you being insensitive or unreassuring in any way. I still though am confused by this:

He is telling you many things but you want to hear it differently. It is not likely to come to you differently. More importantly is the manner he said the things I bolded similar to how he speaks and handles other things? If so, then you are getting the "real" him. Listen to him.

That is confusing to me because, he has been able to look at me seriously and tell me for 15 yrs that he has not ever been unfaithful to me, (even though I suspected). The ONLY difference that I haven't seen yet is that he would get MAD if I brought it up, he would say I already told you, stop bringing up the past. Of course he hasn't done that, and hopefully he wont. But I suppose if he started getting angry and losing patience with me & my questions then that maybe a sign that there are more??? He does insist there haven't been anymore, I just don't yet believe him, I DO NOT TRUST ANYTHING FROM HIS MOUTH RIGHT NOW. Thanks again.

Wanting, you said



So let me ask you something, why are you asking him questions when you KNOW you won't believe his answers? He has answered your questions, but you KNOW you will not accept them. Seems foolish to me for you to ask.

Now normally I would say you will regain trust when his words match his actions, but it is very likely true that his words have matched his actions for 15 years. So you have a problem there. You say he fooled you all of these years HOWEVER...

I think that is you lying to yourself. You have KNOWN all of this time what went on. You just wanted him to confirm it which he has now done. You know he could not lie to you and you know you did NOT believe him because you have been questioning him about this for 15 years. YOU KNEW what he did and with whom.

So what are you afraid of? You know you can tell when he lies, you have known all of this time. It is time for you to face yourself abit here. He cannot prove a negative.

So it is up to you. Are you going to remain married or not? IT is your call. You have the right to divorce him. You have the right to do many things including feeling very hurt, but you cannot claim you did not know, you knew.

It is your call, but I would encourage you to quit asking questions about things you don't want the answer to anyway, because you don't trust him. Your lack of trust is normal at this stage. However eventually you will have to decide to risk trusting him OR your marriage is over.

If you want to really learn things from him you are going to have to truely listen and accept his answers. RIght now you are not so inclined.

So what do you think? Where do you want this to go? You have COMPLETE control of this really, it is your call.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

JL, well I am just really confused and don't even know what to do, what to expect or what is even normal for me as far as my actions go at this time. I am completely lost in my thoughts, and even as far as how I'm suppose to treat him. I thought it was normal for the bs to ask questions, true I don't necessarily believe his answers but like you said I thought that his actions should meet what he is saying, yes that is difficult for me, plus I thought that if you ask questions and they seem to not answer the same or their actions are different then it could very well be a sign they are lying. But then again, your're right I don't know when he's lying or not. So does that mean we don't work on the M when you cant even tell something like that from you spouse whom you've been Married to for 16 yrs? Or is this the point where I say ok we're staring over from this point on, the past is something we'll work on so it doesn't happen again, but from now on is what matters, lying, decieving ect.?What makes it even more frustrating is his smirking he has a problem w/. He is a jokester type person, but he'll smirk when I'm asking a serious question, he visibly can tell I am hurting but cant control it. It pisses me of. The smirking makes it worse because to me it does seem like he's guilty or avoiding the true subject we're talking about. He does it at other times as well, w/ the kids and they can't stand it. All I know is at this point I do want to save our M, but with some of his actions I don't know if it will be possible. I guess MC will help us come to decide that or work through these issues. Thanks

Your feelings are understandable.You know you have been lied to all these years, therefore no trust and when you question him your still not sure because you have been lied to all this time.Its very confusing and it hurts deeply. My WH does the same thing when requestioned, he does the sigh or the eyeroll.It shows hes not interested in resolving or being honest about enything, just his own selfish ways to try and cover up.Even in MC he is not being honest,I think mine is going to MC just to satisfy me, he has no real intentions on rebuilding our marriage.I have given my WH 30 years to come clean, asked and reasked till blue in the face, cried, got angry ect.Last meeting with the MC was a joke when we got home I said just admit you love her, he said I loved her and looked me straight in the eye which he never usually does when talking. I said dont you feel better now thats its out in the open after all these years? he stated I feel funny saying it because I feel like you made me say it, to which he layed on the floor and said it again I love her.No one can make you say anything that is`nt true.You can`t keep up this kind of behavior forever. You either have to try and accept it and get over it and start anew or get out of the marriage.I myself have went down too long of a road with my WH and I`m tired.Next MC meeting will be for me to back out, if he continues to go which I know he won`t, thats his lose, he needs to find out why he did this all these years to our marriage.I can`t say I`m even in love with him anymore.I really can`t. I just hope your hubby really is sorry and IS not continueing to hide anything more because it hurts to find out more through the years of their bad deeds.Mine will lie till the day he dies.This I know. Good luck hon.

Wanting,

You asked a whole bunch of questions. I'll do my best to answer them.

This is NOT unusual so relax. Your world has been turned upside down, although you have suspected for all of these years. I think you would be well advised to find Harley's book Surviving an Affair and perhaps read it. It will take time and patience to get your feet back on the ground.


Yes, you are supposed to ask questions. Just don't get mad when he doesn't answer them as YOU would like them answered. Yes, different answers could me he is lying, but given it has been 15 years it could mean he does NOT remember all of the details. But, remember this or better yet try this.

Sit down and write your questions out. Then let them sit a day and write down what YOU expect to learn from them, how they will help you, and what you will know at the end that you don't know now. Then if you feel you have good reasons for asking them, ask them, or even give them to him in writing and ask him to respond in writing. But, before you ask filter them through your own thinking to make sure they going to offer you something you don't know already.


Actually, you have known he was lying about this for 15 years. That is why you kept asking him isn't it? Your gut feelings are better than you think. Especially now.


Wanting all I have to say to you on this is...:) You get the award. THe ONLY thing you can work on is the future and using the past to learn is the ONLY thing it is useful for. Ultimately ALL recovered couples MUST come to the realization you have stated. Neither you nor your H can change the past. You can only change the future and live in today. Learn from this, talk with him about this. I am thinking if the ONS was is only transgression, it was one made from youthful foolishness, not malice on his part or even anything to do with what you did or did NOT do. The marriage was too young, and so were you two. I am guessing maturity wise he was very very young and dumb.

You might think the is going to get a free ride on this, but he isn't. As your marriage recovers, as your children mature, what he did will bother him...alot. If the man has any conscience at all. Accept that and remember he will get an accounting in the by and by, it is not your job.

I am not saying you should not be hurt, but I do think the path to recovery is pretty straight forward. You are about to learn the difference between "simple" and "easy."


Sounds like a different issue, but one HE is going to have to face. If his facial features make you distrust him and they bother the kids he needs to address them as best he can. If they keep you from hearing what he is saying, email each other, or have him write the answers to you. Two separate issues that are influencing one another, remove one from the other, it will help.


What actions would that be that make you wonder if the marriage can be saved? List them and we can address them.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks again JL for all you input, it helps alot.

Correct I did suspect he cheated 15 yrs ago, but I still was unsure, I asked several times point blank & he looked at me very seriously & said, I have never cheated on you. He sounded very sincere. I did call some dr's at the time & actually asked if there could be other ways he could have gotten them, even though they said there is a slight chance I at the time believed him, yes even though deep down I was unsure. His seriousness is what at that time made me believe him. But as I got older and wiser I really started thinking how it didn't make sense to me, that's why I started to really push it. He still would tell me very seriously he never cheated on me. THe only difference was his anger when I would ask & keep pursuing it, thats when I really started to doubt even more, he would just say stop bringing up the past, I already told you a million tiems the answer. That's why now I don't have a gut feeling one way or the other? Yes he sounds sincere when he says there hasn't been any others, but I really dont have a gut feeling either way, that's what scares me. My only feeling that maybe he could be lying is if he starts to get impatient & mad again with me for asking that same question "Have there been any others"? but you say not to ask if I already know the answer. I know right now he's not going to get mad, its still too new and fresh from this one, he's going to be on his best behaviour.

He has gotten impatient and unreassuring to me a couple times which has caused the last week to end up in an argument by the end of the day. I think I was to negative in continuing our relationship, such as saying things like, is our marriage really going to work, is this worth it to me to even try after what you did, or is MC really going to help you? I know I probably shouldn't ask those things if I want to try & make the M work.

I guess the actions that would make me think it wont work is if he stops being patient and reassuring to me, or if he decided to not continue MC. He does have a lot of frustration and anger from his med. cond. its been very scary for us, so I do need to take into consideration how he's feeling at the time when I ask questions, because he may already not be feeling well, and frustrated from his cond.. and he doesn't mean to take it out on me, but I'm sure questions can make it worse. thanks again

Can I leave you a priviate message?

Anitac

Anitac, Yes you can

Sorry i was having trouble posting earlier but I left a post where my original was.