rprynne and MT...

Hey, I hope that you guys don't think that I was being malicious in my most recent post to MT...Honestly, I wasn't...I was just callin' it like I saw it from the perspective of a FWW...I was talking about ME when I said that I almost medaled in the "sport" of blame shifting...and much of the rest was just an attempt at a humorous way of calling bullshyt...I *think* MT took it in the spirit that it was intended, which was "a friendly neighborhood 2 x 4"... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

MT, you asked if this type situation had ever happened here before...well, my renewed contact didn't happen exactly like that, but it certainly was no better than yours...I just told Mr. W before I did it (ie "Honey look, I'm about to stab you again!"-geez! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)...I even came here and told everyone of the "clarity" that I had gained from this contact, and I also flat out lied here and said that Mr. W didn't mind that I had contacted OM one bit...Clearly, I was NUTS <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />...What I failed to see at the time was how hurtful and disrespectful that what I had done was to Mr. W...Mr. W was in a full on Plan A at the time and told me that he didn't like it that I had contacted OM, but also didn't bash me for it...that Mr. W was a Plan A master...

rprynne, do you know when something really clicked for me? When Mr. W essentially "gave up"...now, he didn't tell me that, not at all, but inside himself he just said, "Well, this may well be the last time that we all have together as a family, and I'm going to make the best of it until the end of summer"...When he did that, though it was unspoken, that's when I started to come around...from my point of view, he had gone back to the man that I originally fell in love with...the confident, self assured, fun man...he no longer seemed needy or clingy to me(I hate using those terms now, but that's the way that the fogged out WS me saw him then-But now I say, good grief, who wouldn't appear needy and clingy when their entire world is torn apart?) Anyway, not sure if this helps at all, but I thought I'd throw it out there-I was thinking of something that smartcookie pointed out to you once that I wholeheartedly agreed with...she told you something like that you shouldn't ask MT if everything was romantic for her...the restaurant, the conversation, etc...SC was right, we chicks just don't dig that-asking somehow sucks the romance right out of it, and could come off as you trying too hard...make sense at all?

How are you guys doing on the 15 hours per week thing? That, along with NO CONTACT is key...

Mrs. W


P.S. I really am still interested to know what MT perceived as judgement by rprynne if you guys are willing to share...I'd be glad to let you know if I would have felt "judged" by it...it is important because MT needs to feel safe to share...I agree with SC that rprynne doesn't seem judgemental here, but MT, I will listen with an open mind if you'd like...

Mrs. W

No I don't think either one of us took your post as malicious. MT said she was going to start another thread.

As to your question about asking MT about things. Message recieved from both you and SC. I don't think I was asking questions so much in the vein do you think this would be romantic or that would, etc. What I usually ask about comes in one of two forms. The first is just general feedback about how she most likes her EN's to be met. For example, I like to send MT flowers. I actually enjoy doing that. But I also know that some people don't like flowers. So my questions are around do you like to get flowers? You can tell me if that is unromantic.

The second form is a little more difficult and may come across as unromantic. At least with me, MT has historically not been very emotional. That may be the wrong word, but I'll try to explain. Early when we got married I would do the normal birthday, anniversary, etc. gifts. I had tried for years to get MT something that really wowed her. I tried little gifts, big gifts, creative gifts. Nothing ever wowed her. Maybe my expectations were to high, I don't know. After, quite a few years, I just got depressed about it. Now this may mean I'm the biggest j***a** in the world, but I finally decided nothing I get her makes her happy and went to a mode of just saying "what do you want for your birthday", then "do you want anything for your birthday" MT would usually say nothing, don't worry about it. So I didn't get her anything.

Then, after D-day, we were talking and MT explained to me, that it really bothered her that I would ask if she wants anything or not get her anything. Well, that shook me a little. When I was getting her things, why did she act like it didn't matter, then tell me it doesn't matter, and then tell me that it really bothered her?

At times in all of this, I just feel like I'm swinging in the dark. I have a terrible fears about this. Am I doing the wrong things. I don't want MT to tell me 3 years from now, you know, I really hate getting flowers. Did OM magically know the right things. Did MT like the way he wrote something personal in the cards he sent, does she want me to do that?

I honestly don't know how to solve this without asking her and expecting an open and honest answer. The romantics will tell me, well if she has to tell you then its not romantic. But, her reaction is the same to almost every thing I do. Very cordial and nice, but never wowed. Now maybe that's my fault of expecting to much, maybe MT is not wired that way. Before D-Day, I had grown to accept that MT was wired that way. But, the A makes me think otherwise. I feel like OM had to do soemthing to make deposits. So I ask.

I've also thought about this in reverse. Maybe my faults were not in my deposits, but in my withdrawals. I struggle believing that is the whole equation. I mean, would being with an OP who just avoids withdrawals and makes no deposits cause an A? That doesn't fit with the Love Bank concept.

Either way, just avoiding withdrawals isn't going to get MT and I to romantic love. 1) I'm not perfect and I can't avoid all of them, I screw up sometimes. 2) How's her love bank ever going to grow?

So maybe the answer is just keep swinging in the dark, but that goes against my nature and its hard for me. I read books, articles, etc. to try to improve, but I feel a time pressure. I feel a desire to be more efficient. A desire to get the information straight from the source.

I don't do this because I'm needy or clingy or desparate. I do this because I think MT truly deserves to be loved. Really loved. I'd liek to be the one to do it and I would prefer not to fail.

Any advice on that big ramble is much appreciated.

As for what came across as desparaging remarks. MT and I talked about this last night. I think it was really 2 incidents. About 2 weeks ago I told MT that it really bothered me that her EA turned into a PA on the second date. The second was on sunday when I said "this guy keeps contacting you and is turning you into a wh***". I'll accept my punishment if these were DJ's and welcome others perspective.

FWIW, my thoughts around this were, I am bothered by the fact that the PA started so quickly. SF for us has been very infrequent and I feel like I have to beg for SF. I feel like I had to before D-day and still do. This hurts mt self esteem. MT has told me for years she just has a low sex drive and still does. She said in recent history it was because we were trying to have kids and she didn't want to. Well, we've stopped trying to have kids, and still low SF. I know she had SF with OM on more than 50-75% of the times they were together. Well, this bothers me. Again, related to my ramble above. I've been affectionate, passionate, I've hinted, been aggressive, been passive, in the morning, the afternoon, new places, old places, etc. So I'm left to conclude that the problem is me. That is very difficult to accept.

On the other incident, I can't stand the thought of the OM thinking that if we snaps his fingers MT comes running. This is the fifth ending of this A, and each time the OM has contacted MT, and she has renewed contact with him. Some of his contacts to her have been to tell her F*** O** and one said she does not deserve to be loved. Maybe my reaction was due to pride or ego, but in my mind my statement had more to do with the fact that I don't think MT is a wh***, but OM must, and I don't want anyone to think that about MT. I just want her to end contact.

As MT said, she has apologized and admits it was a mistake. We will have to do the best we can from here.

As to 15 hrs, we probably get close to that. I think the real point we miss is the daily contact. MT is only home on weekends and that has been averaging about every other weekend.

Sorry again for the ramble, as always open to suggestions.

Honestly rprynne, the REAL POINT is that she hasn't withdrawn from OM because she's still been in contact...all the time spent in the world won't make a dent until that truly happens...

MT, you've been here saying that you just don't feel "the spark" with rprynne...and Kiddo, you NEVER will unless and until you let yourself withdraw...Even an eff off email gives you a fix, hard to believe, but it's true...I know, because I got those too...

The w'hore comment would have stung me too...but honestly, because I would have known that there was truth in it...my actions certainly resembled that remark...deep down, I *think* that's why it stung MT too...you know, it is what it is...

rprynne, hard as it is, try not to let the SF timetable of the affair bother you...realize that in fantasyland things are in fast forward mode...kinda like the friends you made on vacation as a child...somehow those friendships seemed to get deeper much faster, remember? But think about how superficial they actually were-based purely upon hedonism...same goes for the affair...

On the other stuff, rprynne, I'm still thinking...but MT MUST allow herself to withdraw before she will be afforded any real clarity...

Mrs. W

MrsWondering~
I wish my wife could read the advice you just gave.
This sounds a lot like my situation. My wife is home but can't find feelings for me either. She is really struggling with her emotions and what to do about them. My thoughts have been that NO CONTACT from the OM must be the first step for anything else good to happen at home.

It sounds like you have first hand experience of being in that aweful place of being stuck between two men.

Another thing you said really stands out to me. The part about the relationship being in fantasyland. It appears to be clear to you now that the relationship was not really that good. Are there anything that can be done to help a woman see that there feelings that are real are actually based on what you call fantasy.

In other words how can a woman stuck see her way out of the mess she is stuck in? Any idea's that could help my wife figure out her emotions and feelings that are really mixed up?
It seems that choosing which way to go for a person stuck between there spouse and other person is so unbelieveably hard and painful to do. Almost like an addiction. I say this because you used the words with drawl. Is an affair really like an addiction? Can you give some advice how to find that clarity for both spouse that is stuck and hurting as well as the spouse that is trying to help find a loving marriage again?

I take it that you did return home to your husband. If so how are things now?

Thank You!

btw~ both me and my wife have access to use the same user name. I hope she will read this and maybe even comment.

Mr. Nvrgvnup...

I responded to you on a thread that I started for you...

Mrs. W

Mrs. W - Thanks for the advice. I understand what your saying. I guess I just assumed MT and I were through WD.

I just thought I'd give an update for any who might be interested.

After the 4th NC letter, things have really started to improve. (Not that they had been really that bad between NC letter #3 and #4). No snide remarks please, we're doing the best we can. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It appears that NC is really in place, again. I think MT truly regrets breaking NC. MT has been much more open and honest. She has brought up some R talks. I was very proud of her at the next session we had with SH. I know that was hard for her. She has been much more transparent, and generally much more sensitive to how I am feeling. She posts here a little more often, and I think reads here even more than she posts.

I don't know if MT is in WD. Outwardly, she doesn't show any signs. If she is, I hope she will let me help her through that. In the meantime, I continue to work on myself. I guess I have ups and downs, but generally more ups than downs.

We still need to solve that not living in the same house, city and state thing, but were working on that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

For my own benefit, I continue to try and peel the onion back a little more on this whole M, R, A, BS, WS, LB, EN, DJ topic. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />