***I hope that time is the answer as long as we both keep meeting emotional needs.***

I think you're right on the money with this. Remember that time *alone* heals nothing (who said that?) but time + good works can heal a great many things.

Good luck to you and please keep posting.
Mulan

Mulan,
After reading your recent posts about your saga with your H, I began thinking again about what brought me and my H to this point in our relationship.

My H has always been emotionally detached. We met in 1976 and he "courted" me for a couple weeks in the beginning. We felt very comfortable with each other and were committed to each other from the beginning. Of course at first it was week by week but very soon, we realized we were going to stay with each other for the duration.

After the first couple of weeks, my H, then boyfriend, stopped the courting behavior: That winning smile, the eye contact, the loving attention greatly reduced. I was not happy about it and tried to express my dissatisfaction over the change in behavior.

I don't think I was mature enough or aware enough to effect change. Also, I guess I was just willing to accept the reduction in emotional connectedness. I had always been quite a loner and independent person. My FOO was not one to express intimacy. I had never had an intimate relationship with my mother (I cannot even recall any conversations with her--just one 3 minute one about periods and napkins that my father told her she had to have with me).

I don't think I caused my H's emotional detachment but I think this was a part of his personality and I was just willing to accept it.

Looking back, I see I half-*ssedly tried plan A and plan B many times. But my H did not get it. As the years passed, I became more succinct in expressing my needs to him: One of the pivotal moments I remember was when our oldest S who was 7 at the time said something to my H. My H looked at me and said, "What did he say?" My H was very disconnected and relied on me to be connected to keep family dynamics going. He routinely tuned out family and wifely issues and emotional needs.

When I discovered the EA and read his e-mails to her, I could see he was treating her like he had treated me the first couple weeks of our relationship. Even some of the same phrases that I could recall from our first week that really meant a lot to me were in those e-mails to her. What a blow to me--so painful. He was courting her the way he had courted me--nothing expicitly sexual, just that "I want to connect with you" sort of message. Again, so painful for me to read.

That ascpect of it was one of the issues I was able to express to him immediatley after D week. It seemed to hit home with him and he finally "got" what I had been saying to him for years. He saw how compartmentalized he was and how emotionally detached he was. He now says he regrets it and saying he will from now on be emotionally attached.

Mulan, aside from the pain of the EA, this is my greatest fear: That he will slip back into emotional detachment. He says he won't because he is enjoying the rewards he is getting from the emotional attachment and meeting emotional needs.

How can this be? How can he change so drastically and be able to sustain the change? I want him to sustain it but I am expecting the pain of the emotional closed door again. I know I am willing to risk that pain and I have to keep reaching out to him. Right now, his need to heal me of the pain he gave me from his distructive EA is motivating him to do good. I guess I just need to keep positive, compliment his efforts and keep my end of meeting his ENs going--one day at a time.

***Mulan, aside from the pain of the EA, this is my greatest fear: That he will slip back into emotional detachment. He says he won't because he is enjoying the rewards he is getting from the emotional attachment and meeting emotional needs.***

Hi lake,
That's a good question: How to keep the good things a FWH is doing from being only temporary - to be blunt, to make sure he's not doing them just to shut you up and get his marriage back and then go right back to his destructive behavior.

You are certainly doing the right thing by both of you filling out the emotional needs questionnaire and both of you making sure you are taking care of each other's needs. That way, there's little or no room for somebody else to step in and do it.

I would also make sure you are staying connected with each other whenever physically separated, such as at work. People having affairs stay closely connected through email, lunch dates, cell phone calls, the works. Married couples should do the same and never fall into the trap of ignoring each other and saying, "Oh, we'll just see each other at the end of the day."

One other thing - will your FWH agree to use The Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) with you? This is probably the best tool in the MB arsenal for keeping couples connected and content. If a spouse refuses to use POJA, as mine does, it is a very, very bad sign that he/she intends to be a Boss in the relationship and not a partner.

Oh, my WH will agree to use POJA all right - but only if HE gets to decide what we will POJA and what we won't. That would be really funny if it weren't so jaw-droppingly arrogant.
Mulan

Mulan,
Yes, you hit the nail on the head again. FWH and I work in the same city an hour away from our home. Yet we routinely did not meet each other for lunch!!

Since D day, we have been meeting each other regularly for lunch: picnic lunches, running together, nice lunches. It has really been fun.

He works at home part of the time and travels out of town part of the time. He calls me all the time now when he is out of town and buys me presents. What a treat. We both see what we were missing out on.

Your H is obviously missing out on a ton of fun with you. It is unfortunate that he seems to see power and control as his primary reinforcers. You clearly have much to offer. I hope you are able to get your emotional needs met in some manner. It is hard to see how you are doing that with the situation you describe

I (BS) am the biggest threat to the marriage. I am experiencing extreme anger right now--As big as when I first found out--only without the despair--just pure anger. I am not working on the relationship, I am possessed by anger. I don't see a way out of it. I guess I need counseling. Besides counseling, anyone have any pointers on getting through these waves of anger? Mine are bigger and longer each time they come

I understand your anger.

My H had a platonic EA, and we had 3 D-Days, because he kept lying to me about ending the relationship, when really he would just go deeper undercover. The repeated lies is what caused me to have such a hard time getting over it. I have always told him that if he would have just stopped on the 1st D-day- my resentment would not have lasted do long.

One thing I did realize was that the lost trust was what kept me angry. I value trust in my relationship-and now I feel the need to check phone records, "clean" his truck out every now and then, etc. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

I came to the realization that I would probably have lingering resentment until I could fully trust him again. I told him it was hard to let it completely go as long as I felt there was a possibility of it happening again. It is kind of like a self- protection thing. Just my experience with this.......

I say give it time-make sure he is transparent- that really helped me get through the bad days- knowing I could check up on anything if I felt the need to. As long as you don't get obsessive about it..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Hang in there!

Hi Lake. I've been quietly following your thread, because it's similar to my situation but the roles are reversed (I'm the WW who had an EA with a former boyfriend). I've been listening to your feelings because my H may be feeling them too.

Your anger is normal- feelings are always normal! Trust them and let them tell you what's wrong. Your anger is telling you that there is something unresolved about the situation. Tell your husband and see if he can help you identify the specific issue.

If your anger is out of control and you're afraid you might do something you regret, then yes you need counseling. Behavior should always be kept in line, but feelings are often a key to learning more about yourself.

Good luck and please keep writing!

I think counseling would be a good thing. You need to express that anger. Have you talked to your H about it?

Don't stop working on the marriage. Make sure you are open and honest with your feelings about this. My H gets really discouraged if I express resentment regarding the EA, but if I keep it in- it builds into anger, ans causes me to not want to work on our marriage as well.

I say see a counselor- but make sure you are expressing these feelings to your H, without LBing ofcourse.

lake,

You have gotten some stellar advice from Pep, Mulan and others. I agree with all of it, and I'm so sorry that you've been hurt. I want to give you another perspective, because I agree that you may have become the bigger threat to this marriage, and I'm worried about how this will both undermine your recover and your own happiness. Ultimately, forgiveness is a gift you give yourself.

If you continue to be stuck in anger even while your husband is doing his best to make amends....it will create a vulnerable environment for your marriage. It will weaken rather than strengthen your marriage. You've married an imperfect man, one who hurt you and made a mistake....but from your own description of him.... you've married a good man who loves you and is trying to make this right.

What was your marriage like before the A? Was it "fun"? Did you give your husband the admiration it sounds like he might be looking for? Was your sexual relationship satisfying to both of you? Were you spending 15 hours a week together? What things can you identify that may have contributed to the vulnerability of your marriage to an affair? What can YOU do to help strengthen the marital bond? How might focussing on strengthening your marriage and how valuable it is to you....help take the "focus" off of your anger and back where it can produce positive results.

Anger is produced by a drop in self value. Feelings of betrayal, abandonment, fear, etc. cause a sharp drop in personal value that trigger your fight or flight response. It's your instinctive way of protecting yourself....but it will interfere with your ability to "find" your own value and create a loving marital environment.


This EA is a dark gift....a wake up call...one that creates an opportunity to grow a mutually satisfying marriage that is more resistant than ever to outsiders. Like most of the pitfalls of life....it can be an opportunity to learn valuable lessons. Only you can know if your husband is the only one who became complacent or took things for granted. The loss of "blind" trust is not much of a loss in my book. I think each of us needs to have enough healthy suspicion to protect the things that are important to us....and not to lose sight of the fact that no one is immune to failings or threats.

Harley's whole program is based on the fact that "unconditional" romantic love is myth. If we don't fulfill each other and refrain from hurting each other....love will suffer. Your husband took you for granted.....don't make the same mistake he did. Your husband looked outside of your marriage for something he felt he was missing....ignore that at your own risk. He's shown proper action to correct that, shown remorse, and he's opted to reinvest in your marriage and family....please follow his lead and help him succeed because your mutual happiness depends on not just his effort....but yours as well.

If you feel as though you can't do that on your own....even though he's doing all the right things....then yes...please do seek counseling.

I see every reason to offer you encouragement about this marriage. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

((((((((((((((((((((((lake))))))))))))))))))))))))

Thank you all for your responses. Each one of them has something helpful.





I think this is one of the most frustrating aspects of this situation for me. My H and I have been together for 30 years. We have had a decent marriage. We did not have a perfect marriage. I thought it got better with each passing year though and I continued to become a more mature and self-actualized person each year. About 12 years ago, we had severe problems over our discovery of that our middle son had very serious developmental issues. We worked like dogs fighting the school system and bringing in our own tutors and developing our own curriculum to help him develop.

BUT...things have gotten better the last few years, our son has abilities that we helped develop, we built a dream home, I have been able to focus a little more on myself and have gotten into good physical shape through exercise. My H likes to spend time with me...We have been the best together that we have been ever. Sex life has had its ups and downs...but again...I think it was about the best it has been just prior to the A. So why the A now?

My H blames it on delayed mid-life crisis.

I know I have had trouble giving him all the admiration that he needs...I have become aware that I frequently think of something complimentary about him...but I keep it in my head instead of saying it.

Hi 090886,
I think that my anger is telling me about something unresolved. I am angry that after I figured out there was more going on between them than he was telling me, I looked at his work e-mail. I did not know how to access his server, but I was able to look at e-mails he had saved from off of the server. I found about 5 days worth of their e-mails that they had been sending back and forth. I read them quickly... he walked in on me. We had words---He was angry, I was angry but also feeling very guilty for looking at them in this sneaky way. I walked away from his computer. He deleted all the e-mails from his special "saved file" that he had been using for their little affair, then he accessed his server and dumped all the other correspondence too.

As the weeks pass, he routinely tells me he can't remember anything about their communications. This from a man who can remember phone numbers and baseball batting averages from childhood. So I think the anger continues to build in me because I have never figured out exactly what they were doing with each other.

Also, I just continue to figure things out. He has routinely said he just wasn't thinking during the time he was involved with her. Well, I have figured out that he WAS thinking. He got a phone call from her once in the evening while we were watching a movie. He told me who it was and immediately went into the other room and came back shortly. Stupid me--I just got re-involved with the movie and forgot that she had called him. I did not question him about the call.

But now, when we talk about this event, he acknowledges that he felt panic and thought he would have to explain himself to me. When I did not question him, he just let it go. So he knew he was behaving badly but he just continued it.

I just keep jumping back and forth between these two thoughts:

Thought 1--He had an EA but he did not realize that he was having an EA. He says he knew he should tell me about his correspondence with her and that he kept planning to tell me and normalize the communications with her but it just got away from him. He thought he was just having fun, he didn't give her or their relationship any thought outside of the fun little conversations they were having. A couple times within their conversations he told her how happyily married he was. I know he was aggressive in keeping the communications going, but he just says it was addictive and it didn't mean anything to him.

Thought 2: He had an EA. He had a million opportunities to stop his behavior. He had numerous signals of guilt and panic that he chose to ignore because he WANTED the EA. He also lied to me in order to go and meet with her in secret. I think he was keeping his options open about how far he was going to take this EA, that is why he met with her in secrecy. He could have easily told me she had called and that he was inviting her to our house for a visit. That would have been perfectly logical to me since I knew he had re-connected with her and we have had other old friends over to the house in a similar manner. But no, even though I would have been fine with a visit from her and he acknowledges that he knows I would have been fine with a visit from her--he chose to see her by lying to me and seeing her in secret.

I don't feel as though I have radical honesty from him yet and I think that he continues to hide feelings from me the same way he hid his e-mails from me by dumping them. He still can't look at his behaviors from this recent past with any honesty and so I am left trying to figure them out on my own.

I don't even trust the true nature of their e-mails and so I have asked him to attempt to retreive them.

Hi Liz,
Your situation and mine do seem similar. My H did not go undercover with the relationship of the EA once I discovered it. But I do feel like he is and has gone undercover regarding the nature of the EA. It is hard to explain but I just think he has not been honest about his awareness of his actions during the course of the EA.

I feel some comfort from hearing from someone in a similar situation.

lake,

I want to give you two links that I believe will be really helpful to you and may help with your discussions with your husband. The first one....is an article about the real dangers of recontacting old flames through sites like classmates.com:

The Truth About Former Flames


The other is an incredible article from Peggy Vaughn about the "need to know" and how important the details are to healing after an affair (EA or PA). It contains a letter from a man named Joseph to his wife that many many people here have found comfort in, and the words to explain to their WS why the "whole" truth is so vital.

http://www.dearpeggy.com/com023.html

You've been rather clear about your feelings. My H has done similar things in our marriage over the past 3 yrs. He somehow, inadvertantly forgets to tell me about these OW who he talks with on the phone for lengthy periods and when I ask him about them he suddenly gets amnesia. He says they're nothing, then he says his friends are gold to him. One OW is married so he tries to justify his conversations w/ her as being about her kids. Your husband should give you whatever information you need to help the two of your work through this situation. Don't let up! It sounds like you have some leverage. I don't. No kids and my H is living with his doting parents -- go figure!

thank you star*fish,

one of my other hurts for those who are following this is: He wanted to "play" to "have fun". Didn't he know that he could "play" with me? I can have "fun" I would like to have "fun" with him. I am just so angry that it is difficult now. I see the possibility and I want it. But my time and his is now taken up with this wearing exercise that I can't believe I am going through.

I am very sorry for the pain you are going through and wish you the best.

Okay,
Today, I commit myself to putting forth effort toward having a good day and a fun time with FWH. We are both on vacation and I want to have some time with him where we are having "fun" together--the fun that he needs and I need. This EA is a dark gift and I want to work through this and make the most of it.

Just thought I'd update for anyone following this thread. I have not had a serious anger phase since I last posted. My H and I have done some nice activities together--bike riding, errands, movies, etc. I am not feeling emotional in a bad way. We have even had SF together and I seem ok.
Maybe I am over the hump. We have a busy week coming up and a nice outing for ourselves with no kids on Tues. and Wed.--bike ride and overnight at a nice resort. I need to go finish polishing my nails...
Lake

Things have been better--still feeling a little numb about the "why?" part of this--feeling can probably best be described as resentment. H still has difficuty expressing himself about the "why". I still feel like he hopes that if he doesn't talk about it, bad feelings will go away.
Lake

I finally looked up his cell phone bill for the month that he was involved with her. He had 9 days of intense phone calls to her. More than he had acknowledged to me and a couple that were at night when I was out playing taxi mom with kids.

He says he has blocked all of it and he is deeply embarrassed by it.

It's painful to see this and put these pieces together.

I wish he had been more forthright in telling me the details when I asked for them.

Oh well, I do see him differently than I did before the EA. Hard to describe but when I look at him, I see a different H.

I also have trouble thinking about him thinking about other women--looking at them. I can't imagine what it would be like now if it had gone beyond the EA.

He says, he just took the opportunity to have fun, didn't realize the harm of it until he saw it from my eyes.

She probably wanted more based on her behavior.

It's just such a shock because we were in about the best state of our relationship that we have ever been in.

Lake