Hey Lake,
Glad to see you posting.

I'm glad things are looking up for you. It is very hard not knowing the why isn't it?

My fws said it was ust stupidity on his part. I know he thinks that, but deep inside I think there was something else. It makes it hard to get to the heart of the matter.

I think the best plan for us is to do the very best we can to meet their needs. Don't allow anything to slip in and us get sloppy with that.

Hang in there and take care of your self <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Lake,

I am a FBW whose FWH was engaged in a short-term online EA. As you can see from my sig-line below, I am also in a long-term marriage. The difference in my situation is that the OW was a stranger. I discovered the contact accidentally by looking in the internet history folder on my H’s computer. I discovered the EA after the OW had invited my H to meet but before a meeting took place.

I confronted my WH the night I found the online contact. He agreed to NC the next day. I called a pro-marriage MC that day and met with her weekly for a month before having my H join us for another six months of MC.

Today, over a year later we are in recovery and there are many more good days than bad. The bad days are all on my part and are infrequent. My FWH is careful about being totally transparent for me. He has given me total access to all email, financial records, cell records, etc. I can even track every single website he visits due to special monitoring software he placed on his computer for me.

You can recover. I know you can. From your description, your H sounds like mine – a very good man who made a terrible mistake. But mistakes can be forgiven and a recovered M can be better than you could hope for.

If you would like, I would be happy to tell you anything that helped me get to where I am today.

Dear Eaglesoar,
Thank you for your post and offer of help. I went back and read much of your threads to see what help I could find and understanding.

You seem to have gone through much the same that I am going through.

I too struggle with showing admiration when my H was clearly looking for admiration in his EA.

My H readily acknowledges his inappropriate behavior. He is extremely embarrassed. Like your H, he would rather just go "poof" and make it all go away. He is aware of the pain he caused me and is totally dedicated to me.

We have had some discussions tonight. One thing that came out of the discussion: His EA was all about him and not at all about OW. He was meeting his emotional needs for admiration. He really did not care about her. There are details about the situation that make me aware that this is true--details about how he used her in a way that he should have known better--details that I don't want to disclose just in case she is on this site.

Anyway, I know that he was using her--not really emotionally attached to her. He gave up the relationship very readily and has not had any need for it--does not miss it.

Do you think this was what went on with your H--no real attachment--just using OW to meet needs?

Lake

Hi Lake,

Absolutely. My FWH said that he was flattered by the attention OW showed him online. On the chat feature she was using she only had a limited number of emails she could send on a daily basis and she sent most to FWH. It filled his EN for admiration that she picked him even though she was much younger that him (young enough to be his daughter – yuck!).

So how to fill that EN for admiration for a FWS? This requires concentrated effort. My MC had me literally write a list of qualities of my H that I liked. Then for a week, I was to write in my journal DAILY one or two things that I noticed that H had done that day that were praiseworthy. Next step – TELL HIM. After doing this for a couple of weeks it became a habit.

When I feel my mood begin to darken and my thoughts turn to that darker time, I redouble my efforts on this front. I stop – and immediately think of the last thing H did that was a good thing. It could be a really simple act such as taking out the garbage without asking or reaching out to hold my hand as we walk into a restaurant. But notice the little things, mention them, and they tend to grow.

Lake, have you considered an MC? Ours was really, really good and I credit her (and MB) for our recovery. I had never been in counseling before and felt foolish that I needed it. But I swiftly got over that silly idea. She very skillfully at the end of our 6 months with her helped FWH see “why” this happened. She did it in such a way that he discovered it himself. This significantly has reduced my fear of a repeat of the behavior.

Eaglesoar,

Yes, I have considered MC. Then, I think I am getting better and don't follow through. H would go if I initiated it.

He still can't say why he did what he did. He just says he was being greedy. He continues to insist that he was happy in his marriage and that he was not thinking about his actions in the context of his marriage. He does acknowledge that he was keeping it all a secret from me. Somehow he justified the secret and also was telling himself that he was going to tell me some version of it--of course not the whole enchelada--so he could feel ok. He was clearly obsessed with it all through it--I can tell that after looking at the phone records. I am telling him that I do not believe that he could have such an intense relationship--peaking to taking up about half his day when you add up e-mails and phone calls--and not have some sense that it was bad for his marriage

He says he was just re-living age 17 and just thought he could get away with it.

In the middle of this e-mail to you, he and I had a conversation. He has always been in his own fog. We have 3 high needs boys and he routinely was in his own world during their upbringing. I routinely would tell him--"I need you now" or in some way ask him to pay attention. It has always been a struggle for him. I gave him suggestions about how to do it--don't leave magazines on kitchen table or kitchen counter, If you need to attend to a family task--make some list so you will do it, etc, etc.

He assures me he won't have a relationship with another woman again. I'm telling him that this relationship was a culmination of his ability to live in his own little world. He says he is doing better with being involved with the family and taking more of a lead role (another example--I had to push him to have talks with boys about birds and bees). I am telling him I am tired of being the one in his life to guide him out of his general fog. It makes me his "mom" which he does not like and I don't like.

I think he needs someone like a counselor to help guide him in how to be fog-free. I think this relationship with OW made me see that I should not be the one to do this for him. It is strange for him because he and I are both in the "helping profession". It means we have to find someone very competent.
Lake

lake,

He did say "why" and I didn't like the answer (I got the same one) anymor than you do. Greed. Lack of Character. Entitlement. Narcissicism. Pretty ugly words....couldn't assomciate them with my husband....and what who I believed him to be. I wasn't some unavailable wife. I didn't cause my H's affairs....his unethical choices arose from his own failings. Like your husband....it created shame for him....and he needed to be a better man if we were going to be whole again. As part of the conditions for reconciliation....I required some unusual things consequently. My H had to confess to his priest, recieve IC for a period of no less than 6 months. He had to begin attending church regularly, and finally, he had to do community service....find time to give to others. All of this was meant to help raise his level of consciousness....ethics, morals, values....put priortities back in place. His demonstration to follow through....didn't just help me....it helped him.

Hi Lake,

For my H, the "why" truly was an outside event. When I first asked (actually it was more like begging to be told while sobbing hysterically) H didn't know. He said all the same things your H said. I asked multiple times over the months and each time the answer changed ranging from "I don't know" to "You were mean to me" (the all-too-familiar rewrite of history that WS's engage in).

But finally in MC my H had an "AHA moment". He realized his insecurity and rebellion came in response to a series of horrible life events that occurred over a short number of years. He now knows (and so do I) to watch himself for signs of depression and to get his fanny to counseling pronto.

On the "mom" thing - I can relate. I tend to be the organizer and doer in the family while H is much more laid back. In our case, I was spending too much time being my H's manager and too little time being his wife. Watch that tendency - it sows the seeds of resentment.

This is where POJA can really come in handy because there are important issues that have to be dealt with. But rather than you setting the agenda and running the meeting, it needs to be a more collaborative process.

It is still a daily struggle for me not to take over and try to run the family my way but the decrease in H's frustration level with me is worth it. I am still working on this by the way. I am truly still a work in progress.

By the way - might I suggest you start a journal? I started one on D-Day and kept it daily for about 9 months and occaisionally make entries even now. It helped me process my emotions more effectively than just letting them spew out all over the place. It also became a terrific way to see how far I had come, the progress I had made. There were longer stretches of time between times of anger and sadness. I could see how I went through the grief stages, etc. Big help to me.

star*fish,
Those are really good ideas. I am going to request that my H get counseling. I'll have to think about the community service. I started practicing a religion a few years ago. My H has not been on the same page with the religion I practice. I have not been good at keeping up with all the celebrations each year. Components of the religion would keep an A like this from happening--the dangers of a married person having lunch alone with a person of the opposite sex are discussed and there are others. The marriage is treated as central to the family. Maybe I will request that he read certain books and help me strenghthen the celebrations within the home re this religion. It is not that he is opposed to the religion and it does not require anything of him that he does not support. Community Service--we both do so much of that already!!! I think our establishment of date night is more specific to our needs. Maybe I can request he set up a date night 4 times a month.

Lake

Hi Eaglesoar,
I think we need to work on a POJA. I am trying not to take the lead with the kids and he is doing better at staying out of his fog during key family times. This EA was a huge wake-up call for him regarding fog behavior.

I think he needs more "aha" moments though. He so quickly makes up his own reality about situations that I don't think he will ever figure out his demons without honest reflection.

I wish I had started a journal from the beginning. I am using my letters here. I guess I could start one now.

Lake

Hi Lake,

Being in touch with one's feelings is IMO, a trait more commonly found in women than in men. This may be why some individual counseling may be helpful to your H to discover why he is somewhat disengaged from you, the family, and even himself. Also to discover why he put effort into engaging with someone in an inappropriate fashion.

I strongly encourage you to follow the rest of the advice on the main part of the website such as the Rule of Care and the 15 hours a week with your H.

I'm pulling for you Lake.

Thank you for the reminder. We have been doing the 15 hours a week. I will review the rule of care.
Lake
PS I lover your name--saw one just the other day--actually a pair.

I posted the following on another thread, but would like to place it here in case anyone is following this thread and could benefit from it or just needs to hear about a positive situation where a couple is getting their act together.


I accompanied H on a road trip today--he had a meeting a couple hours from our home. I uncovered a couple of angles about my recovery. As most BSs do, I keep going through cycles of recovery.

Today I realized that one reason I cycle is that I keep viewing his EA from the perspective of what I would have done in an EA. In other words, if I were going to emotionally "fall" for someone and start playing around, what would I be doing within the EA.

Well, I know I would be looking for "Love"--someone that I would be infatuated over, someone that would make my heart go pitter/patter. That's me, that's what I look for in my relationship with my H.

That is me, that is not my H. My H looks for "admiration". That is what he was looking for--an audience that admired him.

What I have to remember is that my ENs are not his ENs. I can't view his EA from the lenses of my vision of an EA. My idea of an EA is very ugly--I could never get my ENs met from anyone but my H.

He got admiration, he got a new audience that would laugh at his jokes. He did not get and was not looking for someone that would make his heart go "pitter/patter". I do that for him and I have always done that for him and I will always do that for him.

He can tell me that he knew when he started his communication with OW that I would feel "hurt" by it. He felt when he started the communication that my feelings of "hurt" would be groundless--that it was a simple relationship where he could have a little light hearted "fun", recalling his youth.

Once I discovered it and when he introduced me to OW, it took only a couple of days for him to realize--oh no, BW would have been correct in her feelings of "hurt". This cannot be a simple relationship--kept secret from her. Especially when he read the definition of an EA from this web site, he realized the many ways he had crossed the line--even with just a private little set of communications with OW that did not involve any feelings of SF or the pitter/patter of the heart.

Now I have to focus on how to more concretely define "making my heart go pitter/patter". His need is for admiration. I know that part of making my heart go "pitter/patter" is to look at my H (the man I love) with eyes of admiration. So parts of our ENs do fit together nicely. I must tell him how I admire him--after all, except for this brief set of actions in our M, he has many actions that are admirable.
Some ramblings from BS who is trying not to create needless drama in recovery
Lake

Lake,

That was really great!

I've been noticing lately some things I admire about my H. He is currently helping our oldest child study for the SAT and has been boning up on calculus to be prepared for questions oldest child may have this fall in his AP Calc class. Now that's love for a child!

I have found that if I brag on H to our friends he gets the admiration feeling even stronger than if I just tell him directly.

Eaglesoar,
SAT? We have that going on in our house too--good idea--I bet H will work on that with no coaxing from me.

I did follow your advice yesterday and made note of things he did that I appreciated. I told them to him and he said it felt good.

He is also taking my request about my faith seriously. He ordered books on line that we had loaned out because he knew they would get here more quickly than getting them back.

I think I have made a big step toward healing and we are on our way to that best of all M.
Lake

I still keep cycling. H is doing everything right. I will do quite well for a few days. Then I end up thinking about the EA and go over and over my surprise that he was capable of having secret conversations and one secret meeting with OW who was old high school girlfriend.

He did not have feelings for her. He was just getting emotional needs met by re-living a time when he felt he was on top of the world. I know he has never done anything like this before.

He quit it as soon as I discovered it and was able to convey to him my pain from it. He has had no withdrawal symptoms. He is better with me and with our family than he has ever been.

I want to stop thinking about the EA. Even in his discussions with her, he mentioned me and his happy marriage. It was a flirtation, however, and he is very aware that he was talking to her in an intimate way and that he should not be talking to any other woman in that way. He just got hooked and did not let himself be aware of the wrongness of it because he was having fun.

Please---2 x 4s.
Lake

While you are journaling lake, keep track of how often you are cycling. I'm hoping you see that the intervals between cycling are longer, and that the cycles themselves are shorter.

And when the hurtful thoughts come up, put them to one side and make a list of 3 things that your H does, or 3 traits that you love, and cut off the painful thoughts.

Or, make a list of 3 things that are thoughtful, kind, or romantic, things you can share with him, and put energy into making that thing happen. Even a little thing will help.

Stop feeding the monster and start feeding the good thing inside yourself. He broke off with the OW. He's in no contact. You will recover.

Bellevue,
Thank you for the post.

I am doing better and am using your reminder. We have had a couple positive discussions about us and our R lately that have helped. I got a panic attack on Sat., was able to catch it, talk to him a little about it and he was able to give me a couple of reminders about the EA (not about OW, etc) that put it back to rest again.

We continue to improve. Our R is much better now than it was before EA. We are much closer as a couple and have developed much improved boundaries between our R and our interactions with our kids--keeping our R strong--very healthy.
Lake

Hi Moving Forward,

You made the suggestion of seeing a counselor months ago. I'm at six months and still struggling emotionally so I am finally going to see a counselor. We are doing ok, DH continues to support me in any way he can think of or in any way I ask--except going to see a counselor himself. I asked him to do this several times and each time he said he would but he never followed through.

Well, the other day, I brought it up again and this time he finally called the counselor that I am scheduled to see.
Lake

Moveforward,
We are still struggling with H's ability to stay in touch with the reality of our day to day life. It seems he is very dependent on me to keep everything going and to prompt him about day to day issues. I am going for counseling next week. Did you have problems like this? Was your H in touch with reality? I feel like my H became so out of touch with real life that he was willing to enter a fantasy world of an EA. He did not seem to realize how deep he was getting into the fantasy world that he was hiding from me untill I uncovered it.

Once again, I was the one who needed to point out reality to him and get him going in a direction that was congruent with the real world.

It really hurts to be the one to always point out the realities of life--rather than get to space out and just dwell on fun issues or issues that are of interest to just me.

Does any of this ring true for you? If so, how did you deal with it?
Lake

Well, it seems that 6 month anger thing has hit me somewhat hard. We were out trick or treating with one of the boys on the 31st and all of a sudden, it hit me:

All that window dressing and rationalization he had been giving me about how he did not really see how he was doing anything all that bad and how he had compartmentalized his real life separately from the interactions he was having with ow, and how he viewed the relationship as simply "entertainment", blah, blah blah.....was all bu11sh1t.

It hit me....he knew he was playing around with ow and he knew he was keeping it secret from me....bottom line. All that other stuff was just little ways he had played games in his own head....but he knew what he was doing and he knew it was a betrayal to our M....because he was keeping it all secret from me.

We have not kept secrets in our M. He acknowledges he felt then and feels now that he had a very good marriage. He just did this thing with OW because he liked how it was making him feel and because he felt that I would never know about it and therefore, no harm done.

Well, he has agreed that this is the case.

I am really struggling and cycling in part I think because I can't fathom why he would do this kind of thing to our M just because he thought he could get away with it.

I went to a counselor for one session and we talked about this stuff. He put emphasis on the old mid life crisis thing which I am sure is accurate. The counselor told me he did not feel that I really needed counseling but that if I wanted to continue, I could and if we want marriage counseling he could do that with us instead.

On the 31st, it also came back to me very strongly the first week of discovery: After the OW left our house from the little "guess who I ran into" dinner, I questioned (at that time) WH and figured out that he had been "involved" with OW through e-mail for a few weeks without my knowledge and had made arrangements to meet her. I figured out she had had some mental health issues and told my (at that time) WH, 'great, you brought this OW into your life and your family's life...she seems overly attached to you and you must have allowed her to obsess over you. Now she may cause some problems for us since I would like you to back off from this relationship.' I just assumed that she had been a bit aggressive in writing to him and that he, being the nice guy that he is--just sort of allowed her advancements to continue.

Anyway, over the next week, he was supposedly gradually backing off from his relationship with her. He e-mailed her on Monday and told me he did. He e-mailed her on Wed. I can't remember if he told me about that one. He e-mailed her on Friday also. So I remember him telling me this on Friday and I said, "Monday, Wednesday and Friday? and this is a gradual reduction?" How often were you e-mailing her?" He then told me that they were e-mailing daily. I was shocked. I had no idea that that was going on or else I would never have suggested that he gradually back off, I don't know what i would have wanted except that I know I would have wanted it to stop and quick.

Next, I snooped in his work computer and found a file of saved e-mails. I discovered he was the aggressor, not her. The stuff he said to her was a lot of stuff about their time together when teen-agers, but some of it was seductive but allowing deniability of it's seductiveness. This discovery of his aggressiveness really put me over the edge.

Here I was thinking we had a good solid marriage, that we had weathered the storms of child birth, raising kids, hectic careers and that we had made it. I was feeling smug about our relationship.

He insists he was feeling smug in our relationship and he would have told anyone that we were a loving couple who had never committed any inifidelity---even while he was e-mailing her, talking on the phone with her, and going out to see her in secret.

Does any of this make any sense? So he did it because he thought he could get away with it. He knew it was wrong and so he kept it secret from me. But he would have told anyone at the time he was doing all this that he was a devoted and happy H.

He says that part of the correspondence with her was bragging about his wife and kids. I did read a couple of e-mails where he seemed to brag about me when I was younger--like when he and I met. But the only thing I recall that he said about me in present time was that I and other extended family members tease him about his mind always wandering...but in the same paragraph, he told OW he was captivated with her conversation.

Sometimes I just want to pull my hair out about all this. I guess if anyone bothers to read this detailed rambling, they would just say--Yeah, fog talk.

Is that all there is to it? I feel resentful and angry. It's times like this that I have a hard time focussing on the state of the current marriage. I just keep going back to that month period of time and say.....HUH???? What happened??
Lake