POST UPDATE:

After she got mad at me for telling OMW’s a few weeks ago and she wanted me to leave.
She stopped going out for dinner with the kids and me, when I got home
She wouldn’t be there, she gets the kids dinner, and I end up going out having dinner
By myself.

Yesterday I was late at work about ½ hour late, next thing I know she calls
Telling me that the kids are hungry and she was wondering how late I was going to be.
I told her I’m on my way home.
We went out all together, had a nice dinner, I felt at ease for a while.

This morning I was feeling down again.

How can I stop this roller coaster?

When she is in an ok mood I get some hope and I feel good.
But it doesn’t last.

What I’m trying to say is that hope is all what I got for now,
The problem is it comes and goes like a cloud covering the sun on a spring day,
And every time it comes and goes it feel worse then the first time it went.

Am I making any sense here?

213601,

I can relate on how WW’s changing emotional state minute by minute is one of the most frustrating things for me to deal with. I’ll get a phone call of complete despair minutes before leaving work and by the time I get home she acts as if the phone call never happened and everything is great. It’s truly like living with someone with two personalities and it's driving me nuts!

[/quote]How can I stop this roller coaster?[/quote]

You can’t. All you can do is take care of yourself, set boundaries (this is the hardest for me) and get your frustrations out somewhere other than your WW who is not in a place to reason or listen how you feel. IC for me has been one of the best things A or not that I’ve done.

At this point I’m also the only one working on recovery and I think it takes all of my strength not to get pulled into her emotional state of depression and chaotic mindset.


YES! Unfortunately I don’t have any great words of advice as I’m up the same creek you are and my paddle was lost months ago.

Hang in there and keep posting!

Thanks for sharing Q.

Thank you very much, Joe, for sharing yourself here.

"I know I can’t make her choices, I know there are things that I don’t have control over"

What things?

"and I should accept them,"

A "should" is a red flag, Joe. Tell me what you cannot control and cannot accept.

"I know I need to look at the bright side.
But it’s hard."

I was asking you to look at reality...not the bright side. Reality is seeing what is really there--keeping that awareness...rather than looking at what isn't.

"I can’t keep secrets from my wife they eat me up inside."

Okay...tell me why they eat you up inside.

"I need to tell her that I had a meeting with OM, and that he said, that he loves his wife
And he is committed to his marriage, and he is very sorry to have caused everybody so much pain, and he thanked me for telling his wife, this way he could work on his marriage with her.
and that he had to read his letter to everybody."

Distinguish between being honest with your wife about meeting with OM and separately, telling her all the details...tell me what is your intent, your hope, your expectation...your reason for details.

I'm with Q on knowing inside yourself, this is a rollercoaster right now, no stopping to get off (fantasy)...and I am not attempting to mitigate its impact...it is there for a reason...

My intent is to point out where you add to the rollercoaster, in you:

"When she is in an ok mood I get some hope and I feel good.
But it doesn’t last."

You base your feelings on hers...that's enmeshment. That isn't separate and equal. You are so routined to being each other's emotional cause, control and cure, that you are on her rollercoaster as well as your own. Get off hers. When she is down, angry, fearful, withdrawn...remain present. Until you really change that belief that you make her and she makes you, then you'll be finding your hope and despair in her. That's a load that abuses another person. Stop it.

You are your own hope, strength, joy, anger, emotional exhaustion...and it comes from you taking on what isn't yours and putting on others what isn't theirs.

The way I stopped doing this was to realize, what I did to my spouse, I did to others...including my children. I could stay as aware as possible of NOT doing it...and find out I was doing it, anyway. Why? Because I believed love was like that...shoving my stuff down other throats and swallowing up theirs...get to understand this about yourself.

When you measure her moods, you are doing so to see progress...her progress is hers...not yours, Joe. Stop. Look at your own...are you finally a respectful person? You say one thing here, and then you say another.

Do you fear her being separate and equal to you, Joe? Do you fear not feeling connected? Reality says you both are not connected...she connected herself to someone else, to replace you...for her reasons, her fantasy escape. That says nothing about you, only her. What you have known as intimacy is co-dependency...you find yourself through her. Her moods tell you what your feelings are...which is twisted inside out, isn't it? Yours are yours. They are valid. So are hers. Our emotions come from our beliefs...you have trained your brain to give you emotions based on beliefs about her...not from inside you.

You've got to redirect to be direct with yourself, Joe.

This is will benefit your marriage, your life...and your self won't get last place...which is where resentment starts, and we do it to ourselves.

I have the urge to change a great saying...the one about "Do you want to be right or do you want to be married?" to "Do you want to feel good right now, or do you want to be married five years from now?"

The self-care I've been urging you to do isn't going anywhere (though I agree self-time is important and appreciate the poster who pointed that out)...I'm talking about you making yourself feel good, well, content, calm...understood, accepted, solid in the knowledge you are you, as is...no earning love by being a great person...there's a judgment in there, Joe...it's sneaky...can you find it? Did you notice I asked if you compared yourself to OM and you said of course not...he's nowhere close to your caliber (my interpretation)...and that's still a comparison?

Separate, equal...everyone under the sun. We do awful and great things...doesn't change our separate and equal...we strive, fail, fall back and lunge forward...we surmount and crawl under...we are humans, Joe. No comparisons. We aren't what we do...we are who we really are.

Judging actions...he cheated, lied, decimated...he did those things...he isn't those things. Same for your WW.

I'm urging this for to slow your own rollercoaster and aid you during her time of withdrawal...which is HERS. No helping, fixing, rushing...yours is to wait it through...knowing you have no control.

And I would like to see you relish not believing you have control...like a burden lifted from you...and hold that gasping fear of knowing you have no control, and just hold it...know it...don't act from it or react to it. You'll feel freedom from being responsible where you cannot be; and feel power in what can only be yours.

Your choice.

LA

I know I’m not getting it LA

Plan A is so hard.

I have to work on myself in the middle of chaos and a lot of negative energy
I have to be physically present for the plan to take effect.
I have to keep my mouth shut about the A and the relationship talk.
I have to tell her how hurtful this is without LB’s.
It’s like a juggling a bunch of razor sharp swords that cut on both ends.
And I don’t think I’m doing right.

I’m not complaining but I had to let that out just venting.

There was a time after I told OMW’s, where I was feeling great even when she wasn’t
Even when she blew up and told me all these awful things, I was still feeling good.
I was at peace.

I think this was because I knew the A was over and I did see her cry which
She didn’t do for a long time now, so I guess I felt in control more then before.

“A "should" is a red flag, Joe. Tell me what you cannot control and cannot accept.”

I know I’m a should guy I’m trying though.

I ‘m talking about her choices in contacting OM, and her choice to work
On the marriage or not.

"I can’t keep secrets from my wife they eat me up inside."

“Okay...tell me why they eat you up inside.”

Because I think it’s dishonest to keep secrets from my wife.
And it’s hypocritical to ask her not to keep secrets if I am keeping them.

Isn’t that radical honesty?

I need to tell her about what happened at the meeting so she can realize that OM
Is gone this way she could start accepting that and maybe see that the A was only a fantasy
And it wasn’t meant to be, and maybe get her trough withdrawal easier.

I can see it’s manipulative as I write it now.

May be I can tell her that OM wanted to meet with me so he can apologize
Face to face and end it their.

“When you measure her moods, you are doing so to see progress”

You are absolutely right. But I don’t know how to stop this

We have been relying on each other for 13 years; it’s hard to break a bad habit
We both thought this was the way to love, I know now that it’s wrong,
But how to relay that to her without DJ?

I tend to think that I’m respecting her.

But when deep down I know that what she did was wrong, and want her to open her eyes and see that, this is a DJ.

And when she tells me that she doesn’t feel guilty about the A and that she only followed her heart, and I think what a load of POO, this is DJ.

Then I think to myself what if she doesn’t want to take responsibility for her action

How could we ever recover from that?

I’m just thinking out loud here sorry.

“Do you fear her being separate and equal to you, Joe? Do you fear not feeling connected?”

I don’t fear her being separate and equal I do fear that her separate means
Another A in the future.

I know she is disconnected, this is not what I’m afraid of, I’m afraid of
Me disconnecting and losing my love for her in the process.

Co-dependency this is the word I’ve been looking for you nailed me.

It’s hard to break this habit look at me I always thought that I was never
Addicted to anything so I couldn’t understand what an addiction was,
Well I do I am addicted to taking care of her and to love her.
In another word I am addicted to her, so I do understand addiction.
This is what she is going through now with her feelings for OM.
I get it I can see her pain now, but it hurts me more then it hurts her
Knowing that her pain is coming from OM.

I got too far here.

I will work on myself.

I will try to carry my own feelings, and not letting her feelings bothers me.

I will try to slow my roller coaster, and get of hers.

I will try to live in the present, heck like you said she is still at home
(Physically at least), the kids are still home.
What else could I ask for right?

“And I would like to see you relish not believing you have control...like a burden lifted from you...and hold that gasping fear of knowing you have no control, and just hold it...know it...don't act from it or react to it. You'll feel freedom from being responsible where you cannot be; and feel power in what can only be yours.”
This will be the hardest thing to do; I don’t think I even know how to do it.
But I will try.

LA I think you have been my guardian angel in this hard and humbling experience.

God bless.

LA,

Very insightful post! I'm going to have to reread several times tonight as I believe many of your thoughts also apply to how I've dealt with my M and need for self introspection after DD.

213601,

Your openness and willing to look and improve yourself is going to make you a better man/husband/father than you ever thought possible. You’re not alone…. I have spent the last 17 years of M not knowing the relationship I could have with myself…. and WW. Our WW’s will find their own way…we have no control over that. It’s time to truly get to know ourselves.

Dig deep, hold strong and have faith!

"I know I’m a should guy I’m trying though."

Oh, Joe! You are marvelous...biggest smile I had all day.

A should guy. I LOVE it. Sincerely...I think you've just coined a label for the new millenium...no kidding.

Did I ever mention my past problem with hyperbole? I got over it. It might back. Maybe not. I love that!

Well, SHOULDS make Plan A very difficult...like juggling razor blades...

I appreciate how you got to your good feeling after initial exposure because you felt more in control...and you weren't really, were you?

So the rollercoaster drops down when inside you realize you had no control, do not have it and won't ever have it over others...period. Influence will return...control was never there.

See how we can believe something so much we believe it is real and it isn't?

Sounds like an affair, doesn't it? Or BDD?

Human minds are fascinating...and fascinating doesn't hurt...might want to switch your focus to what is fascinating...no shoulding you, 'k?

I feel a bit devious, Joe, when I write out my words to you, knowing English is your third language, and that I'm mix of Texan, Valley Girl and Midwest colloquialism...not to mention passion for words, and yes, I'll even make them up.

Now, how about let's break down your Plan A very hard and find out if you can change your perspective...

First...I spotted a cousin to the red flag Should....

"I have to"
"I have to"
"I have to"
"I have to"

Is this your truth? Or are you choosing to...

"I choose to work on myself in the middle of chaos and a lot of negative energy...feeling fear and looking inward, anyway."

"I choose to believe I have to be physically present for the plan to take effect and my strong urge to run is what I am resisting, which is draining."

"I choose to keep my mouth shut about the A and the relationship talk. I know I want her truth and mine to be shared and that I want that desperately. I know she isn't truthful yet...that it took lies to herself to get into the affair and exposure of them to end it...withdrawal is about coming to terms with self-deception. I would rather wait for her most honest truth."

"I choose to tell her how hurtful this is without LB’s. I choose to do this for me, as I've said...because being disrespectful, spiteful, punishing, is not who I choose to be anymore. I like me more this way. There is no resistance...just an urge to hurt back when I'm hurting...the old way, like when we were boys, and you pinched harder to get the other boy to stop pinching you."

What do you feel when you own these truths about yourself and face them with the fact of your choice...no have to's?

"And I don’t think I’m doing right." There is no right or wrong in what you're choosing...you're just choosing...with a heart and a mind set on saving your marriage...and you're doing. Your own judgment, constant evaluation, measuring...that's kicking your own Plan A...let go, Joe. You are doing...not trying...you are doing...don't kick your own tushie, 'k?

And it's fine to vent...as long as you know you train your brain to believe you're suppressing and venting...like coming up from air, being an actor, unreal, false in her presence and real here...you're just training your brain, Joe.

And yes, it's better to do it here, at first. Definitely. Rather than on her.

When you said:
"I ‘m talking about her choices in contacting OM, and her choice to work on the marriage or not." Is that the "things" you know you cannot control? Was that the answer to my question? I got a little lost. I'm feeling rushed...have to leave work soon.

(Did you see the "have to" in my statement? They LOCK ME OUT...so it's different. I would choose to stay. They are just bigger than me.)

Getting to radical honesty is like going layer by layer into yourself...the trip gets easier and faster the more you do it...very slow at first...

"Because I think it’s dishonest to keep secrets from my wife." Your wife was abducted, sir. Your WW is present, in withdrawal, and is not trying to grow your marriage.

Those are facts for now.

"And it’s hypocritical to ask her not to keep secrets if I am keeping them." Ahhhh...getting somewhere, aren't you? If honesty is your standard and boundary, and she's violating your boundary, you hold to your standard, anyway?

Would you consider this is the kid in you, for just a minute...as good and reasonable as it sounds...are you looking for way, even if it is you doing it yourself and then expecting her to do it, to make her tell you whole truths, be radically honest, when her truth right now is that you took away her drugs and you're the bad guy?

Are you attempting to protect yourself from future secrets by your actions today? Is that eating you from the inside really knowing she has had secrets from you, and you have no control over her secrets, no matter how harmful they are towards you?

"Isn't that radical honesty?" Radical honesty is when you do not withhold information because you fear it will hurt your partner. Which seems to fit your scenario, doesn't it? Radical honesty is when you lovingly communicate your truth, and respect she can handle it as the capable, complete person she is...can you do those two things? Do you believe those two essential ingredients.

Or are you looking to radically honest, intimate with your wife and you only have WW there?

"I need to tell her about what happened at the meeting so she can realize that OM is gone this way she could start accepting that and maybe see that the A was only a fantasy
And it wasn’t meant to be, and maybe get her trough withdrawal easier.

I can see it’s manipulative as I write it now."

I suspected, not assumed. Please believe me...I wanted to educate the HECKFIRE out of my WH...for all those same reasons.

I swear.

Not for radical honesty...to continue my manipulative ways within the guise of reasonable disclosure.

"May be I can tell her that OM wanted to meet with me so he can apologize face to face and end it their."

Are you afraid she'll hear it elsewhere and blame you for not telling her? Your answer could be, "Wife, I will happily disclose everything, be radically honest with you, when you are my marriage partner for life...working together on our marriage."

Later, when the withdrawal mist (what do we call it around here?) begins to lift, tell your truth, "I realized I wanted to tell you to control you, show you, teach you...and it was disrespectful. My first commitment is to being honest with myself, then to you. Right now, it's the only way I can know truth at all."

"We both thought this was the way to love, I know now that it’s wrong," WRONG? Hey, hey, hey...Joe...stop. It isn't healthy or real...just the only way we knew...not wrong, 'k?

"But how to relay that to her without DJ?" You EXAMPLE it...no telling only showing. Great writers await you.

"Why are you smiling at me?" "I choose to love you, wife. I choose to let you into my thoughts through my face."

Wink and go on.

Know and own what you do...as acts of love. Do them. Know they are coming from you not to get something from her...but to express what is in you...has been in there for 13 years, regardless of current quantities...

That's how.

Look how intimate you are in your post...heroically so...

By journaling your progressive thoughts...you go next to your DJs, owning that you believed previously, you respected your wife...and you're not alone. So many of us thought we were...when we weren't!

Did you feel shame, anger...guilt as you saw your actions in a new light? Because fear popped up next...and you jumped...

"Then I think to myself what if she doesn’t want to take responsibility for her action

How could we ever recover from that?

I’m just thinking out loud here sorry."

Fear like a skyscraper...leaping into the future that you have no business being in...'cuz you can't...think that's your twisted self-comfort? Terrorize yourself MORE so the present feels less terrible?

Hey, it's a trick I did with the past...temporary fear relief...which then DOUBLES the fear...because you've lived the future (which isn't) now...ack. Stop.

See your patterns. Know your payoffs...you're very human. Marvelously made. You've got your comfort zones, don't you? Your internal reaction to feelings...maybe the more you find these, the less angry you'll feel over finding out your wife's unhealthy comfort zone...fantasy...self-deception.

Can be bonding instead of breaking, Joe.

"I don’t fear her being separate and equal I do fear that her separate means another A in the future." Intimacy will not keep you safe from future infidelity...accept that. Choice remains...just gets really ludicrious the more deeply you're intimate...and you both have not been truly intimate for awhile...that's not why she chose the A. Only her knowing she will never do it and why will protect you, Joe. Not in your control. Not what you need right now...that's the future. You have enough present in your hands to keep ya busy.

(Jumping into the future, calling it "contemplation of" is a self-lie...and it contributes to making Plan A excruciatingly difficult...hint hint)

Why sorry? Don't apologize for being intimate and honest.

Do not betray yourself with apologies for being a gift, a human and a brave one at that. Heck, I'll kick your Plan A for ya!

LOL

Joe...can you get "Facing Love Addiction"...a book...that helps? You're not crazy or weak...you nailed your own addiction...find out why and find a soothing acceptance from the first word in the book...flip genders...it's you and it was me. Kicking our addiction paves the way for understanding A's and the addictive qualities...contributes to true forgiveness...be good to yourself, Joe. Get that book. Might be out of print...if it is, get it on Amazon from the used vendors.

"This is what she is going through now with her feelings for OM.
I get it I can see her pain now, but it hurts me more then it hurts her
Knowing that her pain is coming from OM."

Her feelings are not coming from OM. They are in her, about her--she is creating them as surely as you are creating yours.

Do not DJ her, or her feelings. You have your own...know where your pain is coming from inside (when our drug rejects us!) and find out how you control that...not the drug.

"and not letting her feelings bothers me." It's a sign for you, Joe...when you truly get the separate and equal respect belief in place, you will not be bothered by her feelings..they will truly be hers. You will feel compassion instead of compulsion...know this sign...respecting her feelings will finally, respect your own.

Be good to yourself. Know and own your stuff.

"What else could I ask for right?" Ask the man whose wife left him and took the children to live with OM...or don't. You can ask of your wife a lot...when she's your real wife again...because then you won't have much more to ask for, will ya?

Trust in yourself, have faith in God...don't lose track of what you can cherish, even when it isn't acting too cherishable.

I make up words. Is this rude?

Now for the guardian angel...which I addressed before...now, with both barrels...

YOU, JOE, ARE YOUR OWN ANGEL...OWN GUARDIAN...YOU are here...you came into MY life for a reason...my privilege to know you, am grateful for every post...and this last one is AWESOME, especially...very honest, Joe...and know that you aren't drowning, or being killed...though it can feel like it...you are saving you...by choice.

I support you in that terrific choice.

LA

I’m glade I could put a smile on your face LA

Like always AWESOME reply.
You always hit the spot.

Quote:
“I appreciate how you got to your good feeling after initial exposure because you felt more in control...and you weren't really, were you?”

I meant I felt in control of my emotions and maybe in control of the situation
Since the exposure stopped the A.

Quote:
“I feel a bit devious, Joe, when I write out my words to you, knowing English is your third language, and that I'm mix of Texan, Valley Girl and Midwest colloquialism...not to mention passion for words, and yes, I'll even make them up.”

Why do you feel devious?
I can’t wait to read your replies and you can make up as many words as you like,
And you “SHOULD”.

I’m not very good with words it took me hours to right that post yesterday,
But I was working I did it between jobs, that might explain the chain
Of thoughts.

LA did you consider gathering all your posts and writing a book?
I will be a customer.

You are right my have to are shoulds actually.
I did mean choose by that.
You nailed that one; sometime I don’t find the right words to describe my feelings,
That’s why it takes me so long to right them.

Quote:
“Just an urge to hurt back when I'm hurting”

For a strange reason I don’t have that urge I never want to hurt her even when she said those cutting words to me I didn’t have the urge to hurt her back, I just
Said a few words of love and respect to calm her down and it worked.
Because you can’t fight somebody that doesn’t want to fight back, you end up hurting yourself. This is how I can stay calm and focused during her blowout.
By the way no more blow outs from her.

Quote:
“What do you feel when you own these truths about yourself and face them with the fact of your choice...no have to's?”

I feel on that I’m on top of the world, I feel humbled, I feel great,
I feel the same way she made me feel about myself when she fell in love with me,
And I fell in love with her.

I don’t know if that makes any sense but I feel that my love for her is stronger
Then ever, I don’t think I ever knew how much I did love her until now.

Quote:
When you said:
"I ‘m talking about her choices in contacting OM, and her choice to work on the marriage or not." Is that the "things" you know you cannot control? Was that the answer to my question?

Yes.

Quote:
“Did you feel shame, anger...guilt as you saw your actions in a new light? Because fear popped up next...and you jumped...”

Yes I did feel bad, no anger shame an guilt maybe, I still DJ her in my thoughts
Though I don’t think I realized it before but now I do and I’m going to try to stop it.

Sometimes I wonder isn’t plan A manipulating to begin with?
Am I doing plan A to get her back, isn’t this the purpose of all this?
Doesn’t make what I’m doing a big DJ?

Quote:
“I make up words. Is this rude?”

NO.

Thank you for all the insights and suggestions LA I will read this post more then
Once to keep reminding myself that I’m doing the right thing.


I’ve going through this for a long time LA way before the A began, I was trying
To work on the marriage for more then a year now, I ‘m not a writer but I wrote
Poems for her, last year on her birthday I made a card for her, she cried and said that she didn’t deserve me, at the end of the card I asked her if she would marry me again and gave her a ring, she cried and answered yes.

We had an ok summer she started to open up and be more friendly and joyful,
So we where getting somewhere then the school started and OM came along,
And you know the rest.

I ‘m hesitant but I will share one of my poems to her.

I don’t know if I want to do this, oh well here it goes.




I JUST WANT HER


I just want to look at her, and see the sparkle in her eyes
But she doesn’t want me to.

I want to brake the walls she put up and
Let me love her like she deserves to be loved.


I want to be a breeze to gently blow on her face and run through
Her hair because she will never let me touch them.

I want to be a warm stream so I can caress her beautiful body
All over, times and times again because she won’t let me touch her.

I want to squeeze her tight in my arms and never
Let her go.

I want to hold her hand and set sail in the calm ocean of her eyes
To bring her soul back to port.

I want to gently touch every single inch of her gorgeous
Body so I can feel her love.

I want her to look into my eyes and see my bleeding heart,
Then hold it in her gentle hands so it could heal.

I want her to show me that she still loves me as much as
I love her after all these years.

I just want her to be my best friend, my only friend, my lover
And my soul.

I JUST WANT HER TO LOVE ME AGAIN.
2/21/05

"I meant I felt in control of my emotions and maybe in control of the situation. Since the exposure stopped the A."

Do you want to look at control a little more? I understand that the consequence of exposure stopped the affair...and it looks like a direct correlation, not a byproduct...I'm asking you to understand that not all exposure stops affairs...many other results could have happened. Telling yourself you had a hand in controlling the outcome isn't realistic...it is comforting; the kind of self-comfort which can come back to damage you later.

Part of the rollercoaster is a lot of false things we do inside ourselves, reasoning (which seems reasonable), strategizing; when we are truly as helpless as before to control anyone else in our lives. Getting the freedom involved in owning only what is yours involves the vigilant awareness of lacking control...retraining our brain to accept this, be freed by it, and to shoulder real responsibility instead of control as our strength. Slows down the rollercoaster.

You do not control your emotions...they are. They are valid information about you, coming from your beliefs...use them, Joe, to find out what you believe, hold them like very fragile seashells and examine them. Determine when you began to believe that particular belief, and listen inside yourself for the contradictory ones you also have to that belief.

Beats obsessing on your WW.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

"Why do you feel devious?
I can’t wait to read your replies and you can make up as many words as you like,
And you “SHOULD”."

Again, ROFLMAO!!! Okay, devious as in the old me would be highly concerned and conscious of your struggle, feeling I am adding to it by not curtailing or reducing my vocabulary in trying to communicate my ideas and beliefs. The new me knows you're fully capable, willing to do whatever it takes to consider what I'm saying...so devious was a leftover signal from a belief I haven't fully replaced. Finding that 90-degrees in respect takes awhile, and I'm still working at it.

You amaze me with your verbal dexterity.

That, and I believe God's a great translator. What comes from my heart gets through...as long as I don't get in its way too much.

I like you not getting your words right...that awesome post was maybe awesome because of the break in the chain of your thoughts...and the very pressure to get it complete, to your liking, might have driven you to be more frank and revealing than if you hadn't felt the pressure. I dunno. Keep 'em coming is all I can say.

Ahhh, on my first customer request. I've been in a writing group for five years, and am the least productive or ambitious one. I think I may be an expert reader, instead. I dunno. I have a collection of personal essays, two were inspired by my posts here...I put your idea in my back pocket for now.

When I pointed out your shoulds/have tos...I wasn't criticizing...you meant choose...I had to verbally coach myself to think in terms of choices, choosing, rather than shoulds/have tos...so I am encouraging you to consciously do the same.

This was how I found my power...self-coaching, gently, no self-threats or punishments...reminding myself to change the way I think takes changing the words I think them with.

I believe this matters greatly because our belief system is rudimentary...it takes our words exactly as they are stated, like a child, not looking for subtlety or intent...which makes our beliefs strong, a force, without doubt...and a "should" or "have to" signals that belief is a desire from the outside in...not the inside out...when our belief system only wants us to choose our beliefs for us, not as we should be.

You really have something here:

"Because you can’t fight somebody that doesn’t want to fight back, you end up hurting yourself. This is how I can stay calm and focused during her blowout.
By the way no more blow outs from her."

You are showing the results of your change, not the intent...you say your intent is not to hurt back...yet look at what you're saying here...essentially, there's no urge to hurt back because she hurts herself when you don't...would you consider that is the same thing? I am asking you to not only change your actions, but to know your intent, purely, clearly. If you are answering lovingly, stating calmly, in order to be non-reactive, rather than to be who you already are, then what happens when she stops reacting to you in the old way?

Not that I'm jumping you into the future...

Great to feel more love as a result of loving yourself more...you said you are recognizing a new depth to your love which you didn't know before...and I believe by owning our choices, we are unblocking the garbage we put on top of our love--the expectations, resentments, stray grudge...so we do realize a new depth and breadth to ourselves, and our choice to love feeds that reservoir deeper...the choice to love yourself, not earning your own love.

You believed she was the best thing to ever happen to you...which is like storing up your treasures in a box in the street...you can't control the street...and you can run around attempting the box intact, as safe as possible, but it truly remains beyond your control.

Now you're taking back your treasures, into your own house, within your control...and you're looking across the street at her house, honoring it as separate and equal, beautiful, complete and lovable for its very existence...not because it houses your treasures...it houses its own.

All that energy into attempting to control the street, the traffic...now goes into your own awareness, surge of power, honoring, understanding, and you so eloquently put...humility through understanding. Your choices don't help you control the world, they are there for you to love and understand your limits, your power, yourself.

When that happens, you love others more...flows upward from inside you, spilling over...running all over the place...and it's coming from within you, like the love felt when you believed you were being filled up from your wife, before the A...her being/doing was making you...and it isn't, is it? Really does come from within.

"I ‘m talking about her choices in contacting OM, and her choice to work on the marriage or not." Is that the "things" you know you cannot control? Was that the answer to my question?

Yes."

These would be specific answers, not belief-based ones...beliefs are broad...as a human being, you have no control over any other human being. Only yourself...through choice. You cannot make someone stop doing something or do it...their choice only. You cannot be made to do, think, feel or believe anything you do not choose to.

We are taught this opposite of this growing up...we make others mad, hurt, fearful, loving...we earn it, make them, have false power...yet we hear, you can't make somebody love you...conflicting messages...think back when you could point at a sibling and say, "You made me hit you!" when you were three or four years old...see how we need to replace beliefs with adult ones? So many were formed when all we knew was we didn't want to be blamed, be wrong, make mistakes, cause injury (and yet, we did all these things, didn't we? We blamed, wronged, made mistakes, caused injury, anyway...

I was interrupted for a long time...and I want to finish this before I leave...so if I'm repeating, my apologies...

"You nailed that one; sometime I don’t find the right words to describe my feelings," Please know you are not using wrong words...I am not saying that when I question...I am asking you to check your belief behind the words...the more you attempt to describe, to convey and own your feelings, the better we get at it...I am not judging your word usage or the belief behind them...communication is bringing something from within into the light where both can see...we're doing it with words, no images...hard to see the same thing, in the same way...so I my goal is clarity, not judgment.

"Yes I did feel bad, no anger shame an guilt maybe, I still DJ her in my thoughts
Though I don’t think I realized it before but now I do and I’m going to try to stop it."

No anger...maybe guilt or shame? If guilt is not living up to others' expectations (would contain a lot of shoulds and have-tos), and shame is not living up to our own, which of these would better convey what you felt, believed?

Help in stopping DJs...they are permissions we give ourselves to self-comfort falsely...which is why I've hammered you with the control beliefs...because if others give us our permission to feel...she makes you mad, hurt, angry, etc...then you can only protect yourself from those feelings by DJing, which gives us a false sense of control (knowing others like territory instead of people). There's really no protection in DJs...just false comfort and false protection.

I believe that's why people want desperately to predict the future...DJing the future...and they get false predictions.

"Sometimes I wonder isn’t plan A manipulating to begin with?"

This is your shine, your brilliance, Joe. This is why I emphasize intent as the most important choice you make to save your marriage...because if you work Plan A as you did your marriage, you'll fail, won't you? If you intend to manipulate your spouse back into your partner, then you will feel hollow whether they come back or not...you'll believe you made them, won't you?

I believe you are of pure intent...own that...you're doing this to flourish in who you are, open to the opportunity of her choosing your marriage and you...and rebuilding a thriving marriage...

"Am I doing plan A to get her back, isn’t this the purpose of all this?" You choose the purpose, the intent, your perspective, actions, perception...all of it. Huge power. What is your choice?

"Doesn’t make what I’m doing a big DJ?" DJs are mindreading or assumptions about others...defining who they are, even only in your own mind, which isn't within your domain to do so...and not in others' domain to do to you.

You being fully who you are, respectful, loving by choice, standing for your marriage...the one you can see thriving in your head, and for your vows...is a DJ?

How?

""I meant I felt in control of my emotions and maybe in control of the situation. Since the exposure stopped the A."

Do you want to look at control a little more? I understand that the consequence of exposure stopped the affair...and it looks like a direct correlation, not a byproduct...I'm asking you to understand that not all exposure stops affairs...many other results could have happened. Telling yourself you had a hand in controlling the outcome isn't realistic...it is comforting; the kind of self-comfort which can come back to damage you later.

Part of the rollercoaster is a lot of false things we do inside ourselves, reasoning (which seems reasonable), strategizing; when we are truly as helpless as before to control anyone else in our lives. Getting the freedom involved in owning only what is yours involves the vigilant awareness of lacking control...retraining our brain to accept this, be freed by it, and to shoulder real responsibility instead of control as our strength. Slows down the rollercoaster.

You do not control your emotions...they are. They are valid information about you, coming from your beliefs...use them, Joe, to find out what you believe, hold them like very fragile seashells and examine them. Determine when you began to believe that particular belief, and listen inside yourself for the contradictory ones you also have to that belief.

Beats obsessing on your WW.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

"Why do you feel devious?
I can’t wait to read your replies and you can make up as many words as you like,
And you “SHOULD”."

Again, ROFLMAO!!! Okay, devious as in the old me would be highly concerned and conscious of your struggle, feeling I am adding to it by not curtailing or reducing my vocabulary in trying to communicate my ideas and beliefs. The new me knows you're fully capable, willing to do whatever it takes to consider what I'm saying...so devious was a leftover signal from a belief I haven't fully replaced. Finding that 90-degrees in respect takes awhile, and I'm still working at it.

You amaze me with your verbal dexterity.

That, and I believe God's a great translator. What comes from my heart gets through...as long as I don't get in its way too much.

I like you not getting your words right...that awesome post was maybe awesome because of the break in the chain of your thoughts...and the very pressure to get it complete, to your liking, might have driven you to be more frank and revealing than if you hadn't felt the pressure. I dunno. Keep 'em coming is all I can say.

Ahhh, on my first customer request. I've been in a writing group for five years, and am the least productive or ambitious one. I think I may be an expert reader, instead. I dunno. I have a collection of personal essays, two were inspired by my posts here...I put your idea in my back pocket for now.

When I pointed out your shoulds/have tos...I wasn't criticizing...you meant choose...I had to verbally coach myself to think in terms of choices, choosing, rather than shoulds/have tos...so I am encouraging you to consciously do the same.

This was how I found my power...self-coaching, gently, no self-threats or punishments...reminding myself to change the way I think takes changing the words I think them with.

I believe this matters greatly because our belief system is rudimentary...it takes our words exactly as they are stated, like a child, not looking for subtlety or intent...which makes our beliefs strong, a force, without doubt...and a "should" or "have to" signals that belief is a desire from the outside in...not the inside out...when our belief system only wants us to choose our beliefs for us, not as we should be.

You really have something here:

"Because you can’t fight somebody that doesn’t want to fight back, you end up hurting yourself. This is how I can stay calm and focused during her blowout.
By the way no more blow outs from her."

You are showing the results of your change, not the intent...you say your intent is not to hurt back...yet look at what you're saying here...essentially, there's no urge to hurt back because she hurts herself when you don't...would you consider that is the same thing? I am asking you to not only change your actions, but to know your intent, purely, clearly. If you are answering lovingly, stating calmly, in order to be non-reactive, rather than to be who you already are, then what happens when she stops reacting to you in the old way?

Not that I'm jumping you into the future...

Great to feel more love as a result of loving yourself more...you said you are recognizing a new depth to your love which you didn't know before...and I believe by owning our choices, we are unblocking the garbage we put on top of our love--the expectations, resentments, stray grudge...so we do realize a new depth and breadth to ourselves, and our choice to love feeds that reservoir deeper...the choice to love yourself, not earning your own love.

You believed she was the best thing to ever happen to you...which is like storing up your treasures in a box in the street...you can't control the street...and you can run around attempting the box intact, as safe as possible, but it truly remains beyond your control.

Now you're taking back your treasures, into your own house, within your control...and you're looking across the street at her house, honoring it as separate and equal, beautiful, complete and lovable for its very existence...not because it houses your treasures...it houses its own.

All that energy into attempting to control the street, the traffic...now goes into your own awareness, surge of power, honoring, understanding, and you so eloquently put...humility through understanding. Your choices don't help you control the world, they are there for you to love and understand your limits, your power, yourself.

When that happens, you love others more...flows upward from inside you, spilling over...running all over the place...and it's coming from within you, like the love felt when you believed you were being filled up from your wife, before the A...her being/doing was making you...and it isn't, is it? Really does come from within.

"I ‘m talking about her choices in contacting OM, and her choice to work on the marriage or not." Is that the "things" you know you cannot control? Was that the answer to my question?

Yes."

These would be specific answers, not belief-based ones...beliefs are broad...as a human being, you have no control over any other human being. Only yourself...through choice. You cannot make someone stop doing something or do it...their choice only. You cannot be made to do, think, feel or believe anything you do not choose to.

We are taught this opposite of this growing up...we make others mad, hurt, fearful, loving...we earn it, make them, have false power...yet we hear, you can't make somebody love you...conflicting messages...think back when you could point at a sibling and say, "You made me hit you!" when you were three or four years old...see how we need to replace beliefs with adult ones? So many were formed when all we knew was we didn't want to be blamed, be wrong, make mistakes, cause injury (and yet, we did all these things, didn't we? We blamed, wronged, made mistakes, caused injury, anyway...

I was interrupted for a long time...and I want to finish this before I leave...so if I'm repeating, my apologies...

"You nailed that one; sometime I don’t find the right words to describe my feelings," Please know you are not using wrong words...I am not saying that when I question...I am asking you to check your belief behind the words...the more you attempt to describe, to convey and own your feelings, the better we get at it...I am not judging your word usage or the belief behind them...communication is bringing something from within into the light where both can see...we're doing it with words, no images...hard to see the same thing, in the same way...so I my goal is clarity, not judgment.

"Yes I did feel bad, no anger shame an guilt maybe, I still DJ her in my thoughts
Though I don’t think I realized it before but now I do and I’m going to try to stop it."

No anger...maybe guilt or shame? If guilt is not living up to others' expectations (would contain a lot of shoulds and have-tos), and shame is not living up to our own, which of these would better convey what you felt, believed?

Help in stopping DJs...they are permissions we give ourselves to self-comfort falsely...which is why I've hammered you with the control beliefs...because if others give us our permission to feel...she makes you mad, hurt, angry, etc...then you can only protect yourself from those feelings by DJing, which gives us a false sense of control (knowing others like territory instead of people). There's really no protection in DJs...just false comfort and false protection.

I believe that's why people want desperately to predict the future...DJing the future...and they get false predictions.

"Sometimes I wonder isn’t plan A manipulating to begin with?"

This is your shine, your brilliance, Joe. This is why I emphasize intent as the most important choice you make to save your marriage...because if you work Plan A as you did your marriage, you'll fail, won't you? If you intend to manipulate your spouse back into your partner, then you will feel hollow whether they come back or not...you'll believe you made them, won't you?

I believe you are of pure intent...own that...you're doing this to flourish in who you are, open to the opportunity of her choosing your marriage and you...and rebuilding a thriving marriage...

"Am I doing plan A to get her back, isn’t this the purpose of all this?" You choose the purpose, the intent, your perspective, actions, perception...all of it. Huge power. What is your choice?

"Doesn’t make what I’m doing a big DJ?" DJs are mindreading or assumptions about others...defining who they are, even only in your own mind, which isn't within your domain to do so...and not in others' domain to do to you.

You being fully who you are, respectful, loving by choice, standing for your marriage...the one you can see thriving in your head, and for your vows...is a DJ?

How?

And your poem...your beautiful, honest expression...thank you for sharing it. I think it will speak to many hearts here...stay vulnerable and sharing...find your own reward in your choice to be...because though you worked on earning her love for a year before her A...you were of the mind to make...through acts of love...and now, you are an act of love.

Huge difference.

Take heart...be your own hope...you are.

LA

I felt good last night and I feel good today.

Even thought she was feeling good and she was talking to me.

I know it sounds contradicting my other posts, by how I feel is how she is feeling.

But I just realized that after exposure, I had mentioned that I was feeling good.
Well I was feeling good because she was feeling down, and I felt that I was
On top of things maybe I felt that I was the stronger one at that point,
And when time went buy and she started feeling better, I started feeling down again,
I think it’s because I feel like she doesn’t need me anymore?
Or she is becoming independent? Or she is the stronger one?
I don’t know I guess I can’t explain this one.

But last night I stood in front of her and told her I think you need a hug,
Gave her a hug, told her that I made my choice to love her, even though her
Choice now is to hate me, and I respect her choice, then I gave her a kiss on the nose.
And asked her if she believed what I said, she nodded her head with a yes.

QUOTE:
“That, and I believe God's a great translator. What comes from my heart gets through...as long as I don't get in its way too much.”

Yes and I know how to use a dictionary, unless the word is made up ha ha.

Quote:
“When I pointed out your shoulds/have tos...I wasn't criticizing”

I never feel criticized by your words; I don’t want you to hold back please
Feel free to say anything you want, your words are always true to my heart
And you have helped me tremendously in my journey, and can’t thank you enough.

Quote:
“You are showing the results of your change, not the intent...you say your intent is not to hurt back...yet look at what you're saying here...essentially, there's no urge to hurt back because she hurts herself when you don't...would you consider that is the same thing?”

No it’s just how it goes no intent to hurt, or have her hurt herself it just happens
This way, is like when somebody is trying to push you and all you do is move
Away and he might fall or hit the wall, not your intent his actions.

Quote:
“If you are answering lovingly, stating calmly, in order to be non-reactive, rather than to be who you already are, then what happens when she stops reacting to you in the old way?”

But this is who I am, always been, and always will be, I am loving, calm and non- reactive. No matter what her reaction will be. And I like myself this way.
I was always loving but I didn’t know how to love, now I do I wish she could see that.
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
I like being a choose guy instead a should guy.
I guess because I SHOULD be a Choose guy.

Just kidding here.

Look I’m getting my sense of humor back I was always the funny guy, I thought I lost it, I don’t know maybe I am feeling better, ((shouldn’t I?)) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

To be honest with you and myself sometimes I wonder if I ever loved her,
I mean back then, I knew that I did love her and was in love with her, but I never felt that deep feeling that I feel now for her.
Is it because I’m losing her? Or because I did find the true meaning of love?
Or maybe both? I don’t know maybe I think too much.

Quote:
“You nailed that one; sometime I don’t find the right words to describe my feelings," Please know you are not using wrong words...I am not saying that when I question...I am asking you to check your belief behind the words.”

I like your honesty I like when you question to clarify, I need those questions
So I can clarify my mind to, because sometimes
You find something totally different then my thoughts, and it makes me think
And it helps tremendously.
So ask away.

And about Djing her in my thoughts, I guess I said I felt guilty and ashamed,
You clarified it, with your question.
I believe I am disappointed with myself for being this way.

Quote:
“You being fully who you are, respectful, loving by choice, standing for your marriage...the one you can see thriving in your head, and for your vows...is a DJ?”

Thank you for clarifying that, one less load of my back.


I was just thinking of something, I have always had the urge to help people,
People that I don’t even know, and I think I do it for selfish reasons, it makes me feel good, and this is why with all my agony and all my pain somehow I find
Joy in loving my WW especially when she is feeling this way towards me.
I think plan A is starting to show its effect on me, and last night when I talked to her
For a moment I asked her to look at me, she did and I saw that little spark in her eye. Maybe it’s the little kid in me looking for hope, maybe it’s true.
I’m glade you liked my poem. I wrote more stuff for her a lot of it I didn’t
Even give it to her it was for me to vent, before I found MB.

Next week is our 13th anniversary.

I made reservations Sunday evening at her favorite restaurant, I told her about it
She didn’t answer yet.

"And about Djing her in my thoughts, I guess I said I felt guilty and ashamed,
You clarified it, with your question.
I believe I am disappointed with myself for being this way."

Would you feel disappointed, guilty or ashamed if your son took apart his first bicycle and couldn't put it together again? I doubt it. He was learning what he didn't know existed before (and yeah, lousy analogy here because I'm computer brain-dead, but it's running and online and I'm grateful)...are you going to expect yourself to know what DJing in your thoughts and beliefs are, and not do them, when you didn't know what they were before?

I think not!

So, you choose guy, just think again.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

You have to retrain your brain...nudging it when it hands you the DJ's, reassure your heart when it skips a beat thinking if you don't assume or mindread, you will be blindsided...which isn't true. DJ's are false protection. You're getting real and true...no falseness for you, 'k?

The more you tell yourself, "Hey, what I don't know, I don't know" the less you fear.

You're doing all of this. You're revoking permissions for what you don't want to do, and instituting new ones, to keep with your code.

Sounds like your weekend-dread went away for awhile...you're in it, and it's okay, because it just is?

LA

Regarding the card.

I would leave out or reword the “hate”. I have a feeling that although she has said she hated you the she doesn’t. The word “hate” was grabbed and used to cause pain and to describe an emotion she had at the time she used the word. By constantly waving the word around it won’t go away.

It might be she “hates” exposure, having gotten into the affair, that the affair is over or whatever but if she truly hated you she would leave. So don’t fuel “hate” by keeping the word alive.

I think you have done a remarkable job in so many ways. At the moment it’s up to you to break your wife out of this state of emotional chicken. She is giving you the silent treatment and most people would respond with the silent treatment. You are breaking through. Keep it up!

Thanks LA

and thank you bigger for the input and the praise,
I wish I was so sure about what I'm doing,I will reword
the hate word, you are right.

Good morning:
It’s our anniversary today, a very sad day right now.
I’m on the bottom of my roller coaster again.

Yesterday I had reservations for one of favorite restaurants, I gave her a choice
To go she agreed, I promised her and I promised myself not to talk about us.
Well as you know I can’t shut up.
Well found out she is still angry with me for telling OMW’s.
I asked her if I hadn’t told his W the A would still be on, would that life be ok with her,
She said yes, and now because of me she would never see her friend again.
I told her that the minute she crossed the line he wasn’t a friend anymore, and it’s
The A that destroyed her so called friendship.

I told her that I’m trying to keep my own sanity, and what she did hurt beyond belief
And that my feelings where attached to hers and I’m trying to carry my own grief, and
My own feelings, And that I can’t carry hers anymore.

And then I asked her about the future, the kid’s college, she said she is not thinking
About that right now, I told her it’s around the corner.

I asked her if she notices that her relationship with the kids is way better, since
The A stopped, she said yes, I told her then one good thing came out of me calling
His W.

I asked her if she knew me, she said I guess, I told her then you know that I never
Take the easy way out, and I’m not going to this time.

I talked and preached more; I don’t know what got into me…
I don’t remember what I said.

I remember what she said which wasn’t much.

I’ll try to some it up.

I don’t feel that I’m your wife.
Those books you are reading are not going to help; we don’t have a marriage anymore
If I had a place to go I will leave.
I keep told you how I feel but you don’t get it.

I told her that I never dismissed her feelings, and I never judged her feelings,
I’m not trying to manipulate her; I’m reading these books for me to improve myself
And to be independent from her.

Then I asked her if she was independent before we got married, she said yes,
Then I told her I’ve been trying to help you be independent again you are to dependent on
Me and it’s killing you inside, but I need your help to do that for you.
She said that she was sad because OM had to do all these things so he can keep
His job, I told her I know but this was his choice and she shouldn’t blame herself for it
Then I asked her if she knew what did he have to do she said some of it,
I told her that he had to apologize to me in person, and that he told me not to feel
Guilty about telling his wife I told me that I didn’t.

I don’t know why I wasted my breath and energy, I just couldn’t shut up.

I wish I didn’t say anything.

I feel that my heart is in my stomach right now the hurt is unbearable
I think it’s the fear.
breathing is hard today i feel that my head is lighter,i don't know what's wrong with me? i was fine yesterday,
i was feeling realy good yesterday.
i thought i could handle this?

Next time she says this, you might want to point out to her that, it was his choice to make and he chose his job and his wife who, apparently, are more important to him than she is. (In other words, honey, to him, you were just a bit on the side...)

Regards,

BB

thanks BB.
I did mention that it was his choice.

Hey, Joe...

Would you consider your drop on the rollercoaster is your reaction to yourself? You say, "I can't help it" that you couldn't stop...you broke your promise...you took her truth as yours...you did a lot of things to yourself.

Here is what you did to her:

"I keep told you how I feel but you don’t get it."
"Well found out she is still angry with me for telling OMW’s."

She is telling you, as loudly as possible, you don't acknowledge what is hers...you say you do...but you don't. It's crazymaking. Her feelings are hers alone...she's still angry about you telling OMW...that's her stuff. Not yours. Yet you reason, explain, question, argue...and she is saying, "Here is what I feel" and you negate her.

Like you do yourself. I promised no R talk and then did it anyway.

Each time you inform her of what she already knows, you are telling her you believe she's an idiot. Brainless. Child-like. Less than you. Stupid.

Please stop fathering your wife. The way you see her as dependent instead of her choosing her life is the DJ that will undermine your recovery. Equals. You are. She is. Respect she knows and stop informing her of facts...listen and repeat..."I hear you remain angry about OMW's finding out about her WH's affair, is that correct?"

And leave it. Let her talk or not...sit in her presence...this anniversary dinner...this promise you made to yourself...a night with R talk....Plan A isn't about R talk...in fact, 20 minutes a WEEK is what we limited ourselves to while WH went through withdrawal. No talk about the future, either. Withdrawal is real, Joe. Her choice to create and build resentment in herself is a lifelong choice...isn't stopping with the A...and it was a big factor as the fuel for her entitlement, which remains...along with the lack of respect...which is knowing her feelings, thoughts and beliefs are her own, not caused by you.

Do not buy into her belief she has nowhere to go...she does. She's choosing not to...respect this as her belief and do not choose to believe it for yourself. Just like nagrom67, WS's say this...believe this...doesn't make it true.

You owned your pain and feelings, and how you're working on carrying your own...which was great, Joe.

O&H statements you almost made with ownership...

"I love the way you are with the children now. I feel pleasure watching you interact with them. You mean the world to them."

"I don’t feel that I’m your wife."

"I hear you don't feel like you're my wife."

"Those books you are reading are not going to help; we don’t have a marriage anymore"

"I heard you say you do not believe books will help our marriage, that we don't have one anymore, is that correct?"

"If I had a place to go I will leave."

"I hear you're choosing not to leave our marriage."

These are respectful...listening, acknowledging...not arguing, condescending or instructive.

This isn't you letting her step on you, walk around you or hurt you...get it straight in your mind...this is her truth right now...your place is to here it. You're her partner. You want to be a safe person to share and be with. Silence isn't oppressive...can be expressive, when it isn't what you usually do. If you feel you have to fill the gaps, preach and teach...then you are in control mode...wanting to force your influence on her, your truth, even THE truth...

How respectfully safe is that?

I hear, "Hurry up and wake up, WW...I'm hurting too much here."

Halve your pain, Joe. Stop betraying yourself. Keep your promises, turn those thoughts inward; if they are to argue with yourself, look to see your hope, your faith, your belief...if you can't help something about you, you're in the wrong business--being human--because you are the only one you can control.

I believe you're being honest when you say what she feels, you feel. This is enmeshment...it is where you both have used each other to complete one another, not complement, as two whole people do...

You were abusive here: "Then I told her I’ve been trying to help you be independent again you are to dependent on
Me and it’s killing you inside, but I need your help to do that for you."

You told her she was too dependent on you. That's defining her and only she has the right to do that.

I know your intent is to love purely, by choice, respectfully and honorably. I know this. Could you have stopped yourself from saying all of this if your first thought was--I am not an abuser. I refuse to disrespect and define.

Would that help you to stop yourself?

Can you see how much you are a part of your rollercoaster? Not all...your part. Be true to yourself...as long as your focus remains on her, consumed within her and what she represents to you...you will continue to harm the marriage.

Be good to yourself. You are worth it.

LA

Tanks for everything you’ve done for me LA.
And thanks to everybody on the wonderful forum.

I think I’m giving up.
It’s just another morning and I woke up again, oh well.

Many mornings can begin with thinking you're giving up. Then you don't...or you do...and then you don't.

Your choice to stay on MB while you go through all of this...and after, to help others...

Your choice to get up, get going, stay your course, be open to what God may bring and leave the future and past where they are...see only the present.

You can change something right now, Joe...yes! In your title, you use parentheses to encircle update about OM...those are online hugs...wanna change that?

You can.

Your choice! LOL

(I admire you for the way you view OM very much...but hugging? Oh, that's too far...)

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

((((Joe))))

LA

Hey LA thanks for the note.

I did not know these where hugs.

Quote:
“(I admire you for the way you view OM very much...but hugging? Oh, that's too far...)”

Thank you for clarifying that.

You can stop admiring me I’ will change them right now, I’m not that good of a guy.
thank you for the hugs I got.

I know what you mean by giving up; yesterday was very draining to both of us.

We talked for a while after the kids went to bed; well I talked for a while.

From what I said:

I know you are a separate and a whole person, and you are entitled to your own feelings,
And I can trust you can make the right choices in your life with or without me.
We are independent and equal by god’s design, remember that. you are complete, you are a caring and wonderful person, be proud of yourself.

I just want you to know that I’m not trying to manipulate you to stay or to work on our marriage this will be your choice and your choice only, and no matter what happens between us no body will ever love you as much I do, and no body will ever take care of you like I do.

(I got silence as a response to that.)

From what she said:

I don’t believe in marriage anymore.

This one I didn’t know what to answer to, I was silent for a while, then I said wow,
I heard you say that you don’t believe in marriage anymore but I still do and I still
Consider myself as your husband… my choice.

She said I couldn’t take this anymore I can’t be around you anymore, I feel suffocated,
I feel that you’re watching me. I don’t know what you are going to do next.

I understand you’re feelings these are yours I can’t help you with that, I can feel them
I know exactly how you feel; I’ve been feeling this way for a long time now.
Does your chest hurt?

No but I feel like I have an elephant on my chest.

I feel the same way to.

But I’m trying not to carry your load anymore; your feelings are yours I can barely
Cary mine at this time. Some time I wonder how am I functioning and I don’t have an answer for that, I just drag my feet one after the other not because I want to, but because
I have to, I see your face and the kids faces and I know I need to keep going for you guys,
And it hurts like you never believe W, I wish I can do something to relive your pain,
I wish you could tell me how I can relive your pain because I’m out of idea, and I’m running out of steam.

I wish I wasn’t attached to you or the kids, but I am.

I’m at work all day when I come home I like to spend time with the kids, and they like
To be around you all the time, on the weekend I would like to take the kids places
But you never want to join us, and you dread being alone if we leave, you told me that
Already, and you know what if we separated we will have to share custody so it will be
Worse.

She agreed to that.


Then I told her we are both on the bottom of a wide pit no rope no ladder, the only way out
Is if we lean on each other’s backs, put our arms together push against the walls and climb out of this rut, and I believe we can do it.

I wish you would help me find a way to coexist together without resentment or anger
For our sake and the kids sake.

Good night.

I don’t know what triggered my bad feeling but I think the statement about
The marriage, or maybe her whole body language, she didn’t say much
But she said enough.

I forgot one more thing.

I mentioned the school offered counseling

Her answer what a counselor would do that you don’t know already, you read all these books you made all this research online, the web forum.
You know everything.

I don’t know what to make from that, I was flattered though.

UPDATE:

I just had a call they had at least phone contact yesterday.

back to square 1. GRRR