I love that poem, also...and you acknowledging you love the way you are is inspiring, also.

Save your thank yous for awhile...because she has her own way to take to getting there herself.

So know this for yourself...what you believe is valid. The gratitude you feel is valid. And you're not alone.

LA

Hi LA.

I don’t know why she came to MB to begin with, but I’m glade she did.

Like I said Monday was our anniversary, she didn’t believe in marriage then,
And she didn’t feel like she was my wife anymore, and she didn’t care what I thought about her.

The next day after she read my posts it was very important to her, for me to believe what
She was telling me about the contact with OM.

She is been very pleasant to be with; since then she is talking to me showing me and reading me jokes on her e-mail. It’s like a switch had flipped or something.

This weekend was great, I got home on Saturday around noon, and I asked her if she wanted
To go have some lunch, and like usual we couldn’t decide where to go.
Part of it is that she is on a diet, (she doesn’t need one by the way, but I’m not the one to tell her that), and I feel guilty choosing a restaurant that is going to screw her diet up.

I named a few places, and then she said.
Do you want to go to …?

I interrupted with a yes.

She said how did you know what I was going to say?
I told her I didn’t I just said yes in advance.
She started laughing, I missed her laugh, my heart got warm at this moment (I didn’t make her laugh for a long time now you know).
She said ok let’s go, I asked her where?
She said you will know when we get there; well she guided me to one of my favorite,
And her favorite Lebanese restaurant. (We never had been there for over 2 years).
We had a great lunch, we took the kids later to swim, and we had lots of fun.

Sunday was pleasant to she took the kids to church, I was not invited, I never forced
Myself, (I did wanted to go though, but I didn’t want to push it), like everybody says
Baby steps.

Now, I have more questions the answers and I didn’t want to ask anything yet.
She is being so good and nice I don’t want to ruin anything.

My heart is under my feet, I am terrified, and I don’t know why she turned this way.

What did she read in my posts?
Did she have a change of heart?
Did she read somebody else’s story?
Is this the beginning of our new life?
Is this the beginning of the end?
Is she acting this way so I get of her back?
Is she being nice to protect OM’s job? But wait this is not in my hands he is being watched by a lot of people, I don’t know.
Did she see my pain and felt guilt or sorry?

Now I understand her feeling when she told me “ you’re to nice I don’t trust you I think you’re up to something”.

Don’t get me wrong I miss trusting her, my heart want to believe that I do, but I’m scared
To trust her, at this point.
I know she still misses OM, and I definitely don’t trust him at all, especially after my meeting with him.

Last night after the kids went to sleep, I went downstairs dug up our photo albums.

Her first B-DAY together, this was the day I proposed to her, you could see the
Glow on her face.

Before that I even had my doubts about our marriage, but when I looked at those pictures
I felt like I was seeing them for the first time in my life I could see the love in our eyes
While we where gazing at each other, I guess this is the first time I looked at those pictures with my heart. My eyes started watering, a tear went down my cheek and I felt a lump in my throat. (It’s hard for me to cry you know.)

I saw our wedding pictures, one picture I was checking her pulse I remember now she was asking me to check her it to make sure she was alive, she couldn’t believe it and I couldn’t believe that we where getting married.(I remember every second now I feel like
I went back in time, and you know what, I will marry her again in a heart beat, yes even
If I knew the outcome back then, it was great while it lasted; we had a lot of good times.)
I don’t score high in the looks department you know.
And now I got older and I look older, so maybe she is not attracted to me anymore I don’t know.

She is a gorgeous woman you know, she had platinum hair back then, she used to style it like Madonna, but she looks a 100 times better then Madonna, and she even looks better now Then she did back then, she looks that good when she wakes up in the morning.
She looks like an angel, MY ANGEL.

My wife is 5’ 11”165 lbs.
Great body.
Perfect complexion, long dark hair, awesome green eyes, what can I say, I’ve been
With her for over 13 years and she still turns me on.
IMHO she is a stunning woman she is the most beautiful woman I have ever
Known. But I can’t say that to her, you know with her condition, she wouldn’t believe me Anyway.

I’m happy now but my heart is aching more then ever, and it's pounding more then ever i feel that it's going to jump out of my chest, I don’t know why but I think it’s the fear.
And I still Love her Anyway.


Tony.

Say it to her, anyway - over and over and over and over.....

BB

thanks BB i tried she just gets to upset.

Oh, Tony...you're learning...

You're learning about DJs! You are...wanting to go around knowing what she thinks, feels and believes...and how crazymaking that is...

Your fear stops you from knowing her truth...her whys...safer to spend your time guessing, calculating, gathering evidence to support the DJ which stops you from being intimate.

Being true to yourself is harder than it sounds...so many old habits...you recognized that you had nearly convinced yourself, through her, she never loved you...and you went to the basement with that question...and you got YOUR truth...not THE truth...she did, does and will again...

Hold your truth, Tony. It's yours. It is valid.

When you betray yourself by not speaking your truth because of the response you might or might not get, then you are cementing the future...and insuring you do not have to be O&H, too risky...speak anyway.

This to a man I told talked too much.

Know her loving acts for what they are...loving...the restaurant (and you're right on for being considerate of her choice to diet and not DJing it); her laughter, her willingness to be there, really there, which is what is different.

And do not stand on invitation...you're married. You're a family. You can go to church at your own invitation, which is your desire...do not flip around in self-deceit that you can't because you weren't invited...this is where DJs have a payoff in not being true to ourselves...yes, from fear.

Give yourself to permission to be new...for your WW to be new...no DJs...not to her and not to yourself.

Focus on them. Ferret them out.

I believe you're fearing joy right now...know it and sit with it. You're fearing feeling so good, attributing it all to her, when you're half of it...the half you do not have to fear at all...and if you do, hold it as your own, and do not act from it.

Feel your joy, anyway.

You cried...you were moved and expressed it. You're feeling your feelings...you're doing that...self-care can feel like pain at first, because to me, it was too tender for me to look at, comprehend, and I self-based, thinking, why hadn't I done this all along?

I wasn't ready. Your trip to the basement for the albums was you going within...for you...feel proud of how brave you are on this journey...congratulate yourself...be more directly honest with yourself...then you won't have to go through her to get to you.

You are a beautiful creation of God...to doubt that is to doubt God. Judging your own looks is a DJ with a payoff...your wife fell in love with you for your whole package...you're beautiful in her eyes...find out why you are not in your own...comparing to others? Some visual index? You do to yourself what your wife does to herself...common in enmeshment...find your reasons for not seeing your unique and marvelous face as your own, having to judge it, instead.

Every day, you're new. Open yourself to see your new life, each day, also...be present. Be honest, outloud and inside. Do not give yourself permission to be response-based...only your code dictates what you say and how you act...

And you have Openness and Honesty in that code.

Others may be upset with your truth...state your truth, anyway. Respect their feelings as theirs. Respect.

Respect will never require you to be disrespectful to yourself.

Those Paradoxical Commandments again...

LA

Good morning LA.

(Thank you for the words of encouragement I always feel better after I read your replies, by the way you nailed everything on the head)...

I don’t know what I’m getting LA, I am so confused right now, I don’t know who I am
Anymore.
Yesterday the kids where yelling and running around, you know being kids.
I asked them if they wanted to look at some pictures when mommy and me went to Lebanon, so they can settle down, they seemed very interested we spent a good amount of time Looking at old pictures, my DD told me I want to look like mommy when I grow up, I told her she is pretty isn’t she, she said yes I want to look just like her.

I wish I didn’t dig those pictures up.

I couldn’t get enough of looking at her, her smile her eyes, her hair, I could see her soul in those pictures, I remembered every picture I took, I could hear her voice, I could hear her laughter, I miss her laughter, I miss her smile, the kids kept nagging turn the page daddy, I was in A trans.

I tiered up again my DS asked me if I was crying I told him no it was allergies, he ran upstairs told his mom, came back down and said I told mommy that you are crying,
I asked him why he told her that, he said sorry I didn’t know.Bless his heart he thinks mommy can fix everything,
this is his truth by the way, mommys can fix everything.

Anyway, I gathered myself and went upstairs, the kids where playing in their rooms,
She was sitting down very sad and calm watching TV.

We talked for a while; I asked her what happened after she read my post,
I told her that I’m not complaining but Monday she didn’t believe in marriage,
Didn’t feel like she was my wife anymore, and didn’t care what I thought about her.

And Tuesday it seemed very important to her for me to believe what she was saying, and she is acting different in a good way.
She said I’m trying to make everybody happy.
I acknowledged that, then I asked her if she misses OM, she said yes, with a tear on her cheek.
I told her I understand, because I feel the same way too, then I asked her if she feels a
Pain in her chest, she said sometimes, I told her mine never leaves.
She was crying I started tearing up I couldn’t help it, I told her that I didn’t know why I still love her, and that I miss her so much even thought she is still here, and that I always thought and still think that she is the most beautiful loving woman I have ever known,
And seeing her so sad tears me up inside, and that I wish I could do something to make her feel Better, but I can’t, I feel helpless right now.

I told her that I wanted to trust her but I’m scared to, she said she understands.
I told her that I don’t trust OM especially after my meeting with him, and after talking
To OMW.
And that she shouldn’t feel guilty about what happening to OM, because it wasn’t her fault only,
It was OM’s fault too. This was in the light of a new finding I learned from OMW.
And I told her about the finding.

Then I asked her if she knew how sincere I was, she said yes.

I leaned over, held her hand kissed it, kissed her forehead, kissed her lips.
Then I asked her to look at me, she did, and I could see the pain in her green eyes,
Swimming in an painful ocean of tears, I could see my wife not my WW, but my
LOVING WIFE, for the first time in the last year.
I know I could be wrong but like you said LA this is my truth and I believe it.
I told her that I loved her with all my heart, and that I will do anything for her.
Then I left the room.

Latter on we took the kids to watch the fireworks it was fun.


This morning I am feeling worse, I don’t know why I’m doing this to myself.
I shouldn’t (Yes LA another should) have looked at those pictures.
I’m realizing more and more that I did, still do and will be, always IN LOVE with here.

We are so enmeshed with each other it’s suffocating us.

How did you do it LA? It is so painful to even think about my life without her, I even told her that I would marry her again knowing the outcome, because it was great while it lasted.

According to DR Harley my love bank is been in the red for a long time, so how come
I still love her so much?

I wish I could stop loving her, life would me much easier, and less painful.
I wish I could withdraw from my addiction to her.

I wish she could see herself through my eyes then she will be cured.

I can spend the rest of my life just looking at her, and holding her in my arms.
This is my story, this is my truth, and this is my life.

The pain is unbearable today, my head feels light, my muscles are aching, and my chest is
Heavy, my heart is aching, I feel that I want to die;
I think it's the fear,it sure does feel like fear, I just don't know what I'm afraid of anymore; I hope I can make it through the day,
I know it will get better, I hope it will be soon.

It is my choice to love, it is my choice to stay, and I wish the pain could go away,
I wish the time could move faster, but it doesn’t.

Tony.

Update

I'm feeling a little better tonight.

You're welcome...thank you for posting even when I don't hit anything...not a nail or a barn...

" I don’t know who I am
Anymore."

Yes, you do. You can feel one way right now, and in the next second, know yourself again...trust you will circle back around, again and again...you're not going anywhere...you always do have you.

"I tiered up again my DS asked me if I was crying I told him no it was allergies,"

Ack! You lied to your son...uhm, Tony? He cries, his sister cries...his mommy cries...you now can cry...lying is a whole 'nuther thang, 'k? I know it caught you off guard...be prepared..."I'm crying because I love your mother...I loved taking these pictures."

Truth.

Stay in it.

And I believe you're right about his truth. You can ask, though.

"I asked him why he told her that, he said sorry I didn’t know."

Why ask why...he went from protecting you to feeling shame...he isn't part of your WW's drama...or yours. You felt caught...old stuff...and lied...then accused...know that pattern. "Men can cry. I'm okay."

When I read that, I flashed on my Dad's face bunching up, squirming in his chair in front of the television...I was probably four...and I asked him what was wrong...and he said, "I just have heartburn" and he did. I thought his heart was burning up...death imminent.

I share because what occurs to me may not seem important while I think of you, but it might be just the thing...

"She said I’m trying to make everybody happy.
I acknowledged that, then I asked her if she misses OM, she said yes, with a tear on her cheek."

Oh, Tony...here is the kicker..."How does it feel, trying to make everybody happy?"

See, selfless stuff builds resentment...into entitlement...and lacks respect for self...

Not that you did this wrong...you were loving, acknowledging and you held her truth, though hurtful, in your own hands...

Then you progress to this...

"And that she shouldn’t feel guilty about what happening to OM, because it wasn’t her fault only,"

Dear Tony--please do not DJ your WW...or any other human. You are attempting to cure her, the situation...and it is disrespectful and parental...do not father your wife...

You nailed how you do it...separate the addiction from loving by choice...see where she fills you and fill yourself...you aren't pushing her out of you; you are stopping the addictive parts...the fantasy parts...would you be willing to face your addiction if you knew that your wife was even MORE awesome than you imagine in her real state...and eliminate the parts you made up?

Separating from the enmeshment, owning my addiction, physically felt the same for me...like something being torn out of me...and it was...the fantasy part...where I made my H into something he wasn't...and if I can create him, I could destroy him...remember, Tony, beliefs are two-way streets at all times.

Paintime moves slowly...refocus on yourself...not bashing, not judging...knowing you...do "Owning All Your Villagers" thread...learn more about you, that self you deprive when your focus is consumed by her...she needs you to be whole and complete in yourself...you can do this...it isn't straightforward and really, it was awful...have you shared your realization of your love addiction with her?

Think of everything you want to do with her...holding forever...looking into her eyes...and flip that to yourself...can you say the same? Loving yourself, wanting to be with you forever, looking into your own eyes...knowing you are you...worthy and valuable?

Takes time and determination...you've got both. Your WW is in NC, withdrawal, and present in your home. Your children are there...your life is one day at a time...you are doing this...be aware, with counseling, you would have that time set every week...refocusing, examining...

When does counseling start?

LA

Hi LA.

Last night I was thinking.

213 is LA’s area code like you said. And it is my old Red Cross center number; it was changed to 601 after they rezoned the districts.
Coincidence? Maybe?
This is how I put my login name together 213601.

Just some info.

I know I shouldn’t have lied to my DS, he knew that I was crying, and I shouldn’t have asked why. I will say sorry and thank you to him. I guess I wasn’t thinking.

“Trying to make other people happy…selfless stuff builds resentment...into entitlement...and lacks respect for self...”

True most of the time I always tried to make my dad happy all it did is create resentment
Towards him, all these years I didn’t know why, now I do.

Now trying to make my WW happy as far as I know is only creating more love for her,
It just feels right, even thought it doesn’t feel that she appreciates it, or maybe because it doesn’t feel that she appreciates it, this is where my love for her changed, because I’m not expecting anything in return. I did resent her before because I was doing, expecting to earn love, not anymore. I’m doing expecting MY love for her to grow deeper, and stronger; and it is, I love her a little more every day, I can feel it, she can feel it.

Am I making sense here? Am I untangling myself from her reactions, or am I
Driving myself deeper into my love addiction?
Help me out here.

Thank you for sharing your little story, about your dad.

And thank you for the info about the painful act of separating from the enmeshment,
It’s good to know that it’s painful.

I’m trying to love myself and be separate, and like you said it’s not easy.

Yesterday I shared a letter I wrote for her on our anniversary, entitled
Top 10 reasons why I married you.

She read it, I told her this was my truth, and She can shred it if she wishes, the cried and said I will keep it.

I would post it here but now it’s hers it’s not mine anymore, I have to respect that.

I gave her a hug; I felt that she needed one.

I did mention my love addiction with her.
I will sign up for IC and I will invite her to go, soon.


Tony.

About your son...

You weren't thinking...you feeling, strongly...I'm not bashing you; I am attempting to show you how allowing yourself to feel, express with tears, takes practice and permission...so that tears, from joy, love, sadness...can be shared, not feared.

And teaching your son that would make an awesome man...like in your poem...takes that much strength, and self-knowledge, to be that tenderly honest.

Before I "help me out here," I want to challenge your belief that you love yourself well and true...

because when you do, then you do not resent others...like your dad...

you may approve of yourself...find you meet minimums...but not truly embrace yourself as a marvelous creation, equal to everyone...

Love addicts usually don't. Unless they believe they are really, really good...and that's difficult to maintain with that negative voice in our heads telling us we're fake.

I don't believe you're trying to make your wife happy...I believe you are loving yourself more through her...and all you have to do is get more direct...and not choose to believe this will exclude her...

You are experiencing very close to the overflowing love I've mentioned...loving your choice and acts of love...the way you love...not from the results...

Aligning this to be directly to you, then outward, I think, breaks the addict in us...and we love authentically.

Doesn't take a radical makeover...

Telling her what she alone has choice over...to shred it if she wants to...reinforces she controls you and you control her...another nudge. No bash.

I remember your list...you posted it. You celebrated your anniversary...another act of love. You seemed to worry about it, before hand, the right touch, not too much or too little...how do you believe you did now?

Would you consider not giving her hugs when you DJ her? Would you consider hugging her as an act of love you are choosing...because you make love a verb?

How are you doing with the ups and downs...are you more accepting of these emotions, or less?

LA

Thanks LA.

You know what, I think I’m getting it.
I said to my wife last night that sometimes I feel proud of myself for staying the course
And sometimes I feel pathetic.

She said why pathetic?

I told her sometimes I feel satisfied with the little crumbs from you, maybe a smile, maybe a laugh, and this is pathetic, then I remember that I’m not doing this expecting anything in return, I’m doing this for myself.

After I read your post I realized that I am proud of myself all the time, you don’t know
How many old customers of mine had told me to leave or get a divorce, and how many had told me that they couldn’t do what I’m doing and that it takes a great man to handle
This kind of pressure and stay the course.

When I tell them that she is a great person and that nobody had ever loved me more then
She did and half of the problem was I, and that she did all these great things for me,
And I wasn’t going to drop her for 1 mistake she made.
And she is worth every effort and every tear, and if I didn’t do what I’m doing I will hate
Myself for the rest of my life, and that I don’t like to say what if, I hate what ifs.
So yes I’m doing this for myself, I’m not doing this so she doesn’t hate me, I’m doing this so I don’t hate me.
They pat me on the back and say you are doing the right thing, you are a great man for loving her after what she did to you, one lady told me " I don't think you are human".

And it feels great.( and i know i'm human because it hurts too much).

So yes I do like the new me not bragging but I think very highly of myself, maybe that’s why I don’t have any resentment for her.
Nothing but love.

Quote:
“...how do you believe you did now?”

I’m glade I waited, it wasn’t the right time on our anniversary, and it was the right time yesterday.

I think I got my message through. And I’m happy about it.

My hugs are always out of love, I think or I hope she can feel them. But they are always out of love.

Quote:
“How are you doing with the ups and downs...are you more accepting of these emotions, or less?”

Well today no downs only ups I hope it will last, what a difference a day makes.

I’m trying to gain my 12 lbs back; I’m 5’10” and was 135 lbs for most of my life,
I went down to 117 lbs at one point now I’m at 122 lbs, and stuck; I’m trying though,
Today I had 2 lunches and a huge dinner.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
(By the way she hates me for that, she hates me for eating whatever I want and never gaining an once, I’m not DJing her she told me that).

Oh well. I do have to watch my cholesterol level, does that count as dieting?
(I’m not watching it though, I SHOULD).

Tony.

UPDATE:

I made an apointment for IC/MC.for monday

Another Long UPDATE to my previous post.

Yesterday I had one of those bad days just down don’t know why, just down,
I feel the same today. I guess its part of the coaster.

I know I need to live in the present but my curse is that I am human, and for some reason
God gave us the ability to think about the future, trying to predict the outcome from the
Present circumstances, and its beyond painful, I know I’m terrified right now, I think
Most of my fears are from the uncertainty. Knowing that my WW controls the outcome.

I keep repeating to myself Wortharty’s advice for BS.
She is not my wife she is in the fog the fog is real she is an alien; then I look into her eyes,
I look into her tears, and I can still see my dear wife the woman I love and cherish, (I’m crying now), and I tell myself she is in withdrawal, but wait I’m not even sure of NC yet,
What if they’re still contacting somehow?
I don’t know what to think anymore, all I know is that from the knowledge I got, in the last few months, I can make our marriage wonderful for the rest of our lives.

Today I need a friend, and she needs a friend.
I wish she would step back and realizes that despite what happens I’m the only friend
That is still here for her with my arms and ears open, stretching my hand out, to help
Get us out of this chaos.

Why God gave us a fragile heart Why Gd WHY?

bump up

You had a rough day, Tony. You are vulnerable in the present...she is in withdrawal, I believe...and you have to have a network set up with alarms (and I think you do) about any contact...she has stopped volunteering at the school, is that correct? Or, at least, the kids are out for summer and she isn't going there?

When you dwell on scaring yourself with the future, you are self-bashing...you are getting a payoff, and I would like you to share what it is...

You have been this vulnerable to your marriage the whole time you were married...that hasn't changed...what changed are her choices...and FWW can learn and change...unless you predict them into a future where they do great harm to you again and again, and feeling that now, react to her like it is now...

Where's the payoff?

You hurt. She hurts. She is in charge of herself--respect that. Wait. Plan A...be present.

Be really present.

LA

Hi LA

I’m having a rough life now.

I don’t have any network to verify contact but the school and the church are watching
Him, this will not guarantee no contact, but it will make it very difficult, and they will eventually find out if there is any.

She signed up the kids for summer school, it’s fun stuff, I have no idea where or what she is doing during the day, I don’t know if OM leaves the school for his break, all I know
Is that he is going to counseling with his wife, according to the pastor he is working overtime to save his marriage, that doesn’t mean anything, after I met with him, he promised to send a NC letter, he never told anybody about it, so it didn’t happen yet.
So no I’m not sure about the NC this is why I don’t know if she is in withdrawal yet.

OM said a few disturbing things to me, that gave me the impression that he is not owning
What happened, he is taking some blame, but blaming most of it on my wife.

I’m guessing this is what he told his wife, the pastor and his friends, because everybody at school is sympathizing with him, and puling away from my wife.

She needs a good friend now and I’m not it, she is pushing her best friend away, you know, the one that she first confined in, well her friend cares about her and she did reach out
But my wife is shutting her off.

I told my wife yesterday when bad things happen you filter your friends,

I told her that I will always be her friend and that her family will never leave her,
She nodded her head with a little tear.

She is in a very bad spot now, and I can feel her pain, I wish I didn’t care that much,
But I do, I can barely deal with my own grief, let alone carry hers with me.
I told her, sometimes I feel pathetic waiting for a smile or a laugh from her that would carry me a few days.
I miss my wife LA I miss her so much.

Quote:
“When you dwell on scaring yourself with the future, you are self-bashing...you are getting a payoff, and I would like you to share what it is...”

I don’t know what is the payoff, I think we humans do that, maybe I don’t want to
Get my hope up to high and get another fall, because to tell you the truth, I cannot
Take another fall; it will destroy me, not that this one didn’t but another one so soon
I don’t think I will make it.

I am going to counseling tonight, she is invited, but she doesn’t want to go.

I will update.
Tony.

Update.

I know i need to be present and work on myself but how?

in this chaos. i don't trust them now.

Tony,

"She is in a very bad spot now, and I can feel her pain, I wish I didn’t care that much,"

Does this mean you believe that the amount you love your WW determines whether or not you can feel her pain? Are you saying you wished you cared less so that you wouldn't be feeling double the pain?

You are the feeling the pain of her consequences...as you would one of your children? Is there something in this you can address for me?

You are grieving...you cannot carry another person's grief...it's theirs...great distraction from yours...what are you grieving, specifically? Is it the same thing you believe she's grieving, is that the crossover?

Compassion is not pain you feel for others...empathy is you putting YOURSELF in their shoes...feeling what you would feel, think or believe in the situation...Compassion is knowing we hurt, heal, lose and gain...human living...Compassion is not controlling...either by taking away from another or giving to...it is respecting, listening to acknowledge and understand. That's what I believe.

Confusing the two is like enmeshing ourselves. You can take no action to block her pain...nor would it be respectful of you. She is choosing, every day, her life, her beliefs, actions and perspective. Respect. Listen and repeat...be safe to be shared with.

When you can carry your own grief, fully, in your two hands, know what you're grieving and accept it, then you are really doing something, Tony.

"I don’t know what is the payoff, I think we humans do that, maybe I don’t want to
Get my hope up to high and get another fall, because to tell you the truth, I cannot
Take another fall; it will destroy me, not that this one didn’t but another one so soon
I don’t think I will make it."

You believe hope is out of your control, so you scare yourself into being not so hopeful or expectant, to protect yourself...from being disappointed?

From being destroyed? I believe you will hurt and be disappointed...I do not believe you will be destroyed. You're a human being...a rather miraculous creation...would God allow others to destroy us through their choices? End our lives? Or do we say that, come to believe it, (so jump into the future and the past, tearing our flesh, as if to prepare for it), and predict it...and then live through it?

Good self-care is reaching for your highest level of self-honesty. Sounds sinful, less loving to say we wouldn't be destroyed, doesn't it? We aren't. We are changed, yes. Destroyed, no. A lot of expectations can be destroyed...not our selves. They can feel the same...helpless, done to--and we are not destroyed.

If you were your son to be destroyed if at 32, his wife left him? What would you tell your son, to see him through this? What advice would you give him...that he will be decimated, not exist, and to prepare for it by scaring himself silly to keep his hope down?

I'm not mocking you in anyway...I would like you to see yourself directly, instead of through your WW's eyes, feelings, reactions, beliefs...see yourself truely. Begin there. Your marriage needs respect. You're here. You are who I'm counting on to get that into your marriage, solidly.

I know you miss your wife...very much. I also believe you miss the dance you two did...how much she carried your feelings, and you, hers...so that she believed she couldn't tell you her sorrows, for you took them as your doing...and she believed she couldn't be her, be honest, share herself, for fear of you feeling damaged.

And vice versa.

Can you see how this idea of love falls short? Prevent intimacy instead of promoting it? How can you trust your own feelings when you put them in someone else's hands? How can they trust you?

God has peace in abundance...he'll share...you stand in the swirl of a storm and have peace. Focus. Acceptance. Appreciation. Build your trust in yourself to let go of what isn't yours and know it wasn't real love, only false responsibility...and it kept you both from being truly intimate.

Whatever you do, it will be yours. The illusion is there, the actuality isn't. I believe that's why we cannot be destroyed...or made...except by our own hands, in our ways...and when others make their attempts to do just that, then we feel pain inside...if we buy into their attempts.

I look forward to hearing about counseling...if you are listening and repeating...respecting...validating and acknowledging what is hers...and speaking your stuff, in tiny statements...

Why do you feel pathetic looking for the tiniest approval from your WW?

How much RC time are you doing? Why not ask OMW when he expects to send the NC letter, that you've been waiting on his promise?

LA

Hi LA

Yes I believe that my deep love for her allows me to feel her pain.

No I never wished that I cared less for her, I’d rather be in pain then out of love
For my wife. And if I didn’t care the pain would not be half it would be
No pain, if I didn’t care there would be no pain.

Quote:
“You are the feeling the pain of her consequences...as you would one of your children? Is there something in this you can address for me?”

She is feeling the pain of her consequences, I am feeling her pain, I don’t know how I can explain this, I told her yesterday I wish I could do something to make her feel better.

I’m grieving the loss of my wife my friend my love.
She is grieving the loss of OM’s friendship.

Quote:
“You believe hope is out of your control, so you scare yourself into being not so hopeful or expectant, to protect yourself...from being disappointed?”

I believe hope is in my control, but I am afraid of being disappointed.

Quote:
“You her sorrows, for you took them as your doing...and she believed she couldn't be her, be honest, share herself, for fear of you feeling damaged.”

You are absolutely right about this, I wish she could see that.

Why do I feel pathetic? Because at once I had her all to myself, and I took it for granted,
Now I get some crumbs here and there like a homeless guy digging through the trash
To find some food dumped buy everybody else.

How much recreational time we are doing?
With 2 kids you’re kidding none at this time, she is not in the mood to do anything
At this time I wish she would.

I had my first IC last night, it was good, and like my wife told me a while back,
“You read all these books, and did all these research online, what do you think the counselor is going to tell you that you don’t already know? You are a counselor.”

Well he approved of what I’m doing and the way I’m a handling thing, he knows about MB, and agrees with the content, he is familiar with HNHN, and other DR Harley’s books.

He absolutely agreed to the addiction side of the affair and that no contact must be monitored, and kept, and that what she is feeling for OM is not love, its just fix for her
Addiction, he drew a scale of human feelings it goes from numb to extreme.
And he said she is in the numb state, he asked me how she was with kids I told him better
When the A stopped, he said in the numb state she doesn’t have any feelings towards anybody, (I guess in MB they call this the fog).

And now she is starting to get out of the numb state and she is realizing how painful this is, and the only way to go back in her numb state is to get her fix again,
This is an extremely dangerous and unhealthy cycle, and it will continue forever if nothing is done about it, it’s worse then any drug addiction, and no contact is a must, for her to get back to reality.

Then he told me what I needed to do on my part he said: this is going to be very hard and painful, but I need to look into myself and wipe any resentment, hate, judgments, toward
My wife out of my system, and just be there for my her with my arms open wide, and nailed to the wall.

I told him that I don’t resent my wife I have nothing but love for her and I think that she is a wonderful person that got caught up in this chaos thinking this was true love, and I’m doing exactly what he mentioned.

He looked at me and said, “ I don’t know you enough but got bless your heart, you are a great person what you’re doing is not human, you are a different breed of man, and this is a compliment, who are you? And where this power of forgiveness comes from?”

I told him I am a man in love with my wife, I see her faults, but I see
Her qualities in a higher level.

Forgiveness comes from my life experiences. I found out that resentment and hate hurts
Me inside more then it hurts anybody else, so I decided not to hold resentment.
It is a selfish thing, I guess.

Tony.

Tony,

"She is feeling the pain of her consequences, I am feeling her pain, I don’t know how I can explain this, I told her yesterday I wish I could do something to make her feel better."

So, if your child stole money from a neighbor, was found out and caught, and you grounded her for one week...and she sobbed and moped, great pain of embarrassment...would you be wanting to do stuff to make her feel better?

Would consider this:

"I’m grieving the loss of my wife my friend my love."

Your WW is right there...she is. Could what you are grieving be the loss of the marriage you thought you had? Loss of the image of your wife, the trust, the security?

"She is grieving the loss of OM’s friendship." Would you allow yourself the choice to believe she is grieving the loss of a quick fix, a high, and not a true friendship? AP's aren't friends...they are enemies of each other and their marriages. That realization comes later. For now, she is grieving her fix, like an addict. Your choice what to believe. It matters inside you.

"You are absolutely right about this, I wish she could see that."

More importantly is for you to see it. Honest, Tony...see where you robbed her vicariously...see it wholly and know it...and her, you. See where you blocked intimacy from ignorance and how you are still doing that.

You want to be ready when she comes out of withdrawal, correct?

You still want a thriving, intimate marriage, better than before, correct?

Then consider RC time, too:

"How much recreational time we are doing?
With 2 kids you’re kidding none at this time, she is not in the mood to do anything
At this time I wish she would."

In your mind, do you have your priorities as, "The children, my marriage, my work?"

Maybe you want to rearrange those...moods change...your job is to make the plans and take her along for now. I'm telling you what saved my marriage...which was scheduling three days away...like in SAA...three weeks, he advises, away...moods or no...you staying in reality, getting your priorities in a solid order, and choosing to act.

Good selfish, Tony...and keep up with the counselor...work on the enmeshment with him, 'k?

LA