H is cold, distant, and I don't know how much of this "being nice" stuff I can do. I'm getting really frustrated, always giving, him always taking, always lost in his own little world. Here we are, his wife and three kids, sitting here, waiting ... How much longer are we supposed to stew until he makes up his mind? It's getting increasingly more difficult not to talk relationship. He went to couseling yesterday, hardly said a word about it on the phone. He doesn't call. I call him. I asked him to come over last night. He said, he eat his soup, lay down and "see how he felt." How arrogant! While me and the kids sit here, blowing in the wind, not knowing which way to go. Said he'd call me later. Didn't call. Didn't call this morning. I called, he said he fell asleep on the couch. Typical. Just like when he was living at home. I take my part in the responsibility of not meeting his EMs, but he never met mine, either. Always indifferent. I hurt; he falls asleep. It's how its always been. Got a Father's Day present and card. How hard that was!! To a great dad, a great husband. All these cards. I was tearing up trying to pick one out from me and the kids. It's a laugh. It really is. But I got them, I'll them them to him on Sunday. He'll feel like sh**.

Sorry, everyone. Just rambling. I'm getting really, really frustrated with this Plan A ... just might bail.

RT - you are describing the heroics of a good plan A. It IS painful. This is a VERY difficult high road to take. Not many do it!

YOU are. You are doing it. Recognize that you are doing this. May not look like progress now. It is.

Post your frustrations here. All of them. Vent. Let it out on the board. Else it will come out somewhere else - kids, WH, etc.

When was your d-day? Put in a little sig line with details. It's hard to follow all these situations and keep the dates straight.

I'll ask again - what about Harley counseling????

D Day was 4/9/06. H went on a trip to FL to "find himself." On evening of 4/9,I got a call from a strange man who turned out to be the husband of OW. The story unfolded over the phone. I was a basket case. My three kids were home. My mom, neighbors came over to help. H and Ow were caught right at the beginning of their little trip, but it didn't make them turn around and come back, not for another three weeks. In the interim, via the the telephone, things were mean and nasty. My kids spewed at their father. Kids are two boys 17, 15; and one girl, 12. It was a horrible time. H told me he was in love with OW and wanted a divorce. And while he was gone, I had papers drawn up. I felt I had no choice.

When he returned, we had a long, long talk at a Village Inn. I gave him an ultimatum--leave the girl right now and come back to your family, or it's goodbye. He struggled. But by that night, he had broken it off with the girl.

Because the kids were so angry, and so was I, H got an apt. on a month to month. Before bringing him back into the house, I had to calm things. He knew that. We agreed. So in that month, from around the end of April to the end of May, H and I did things together, spent wonderful times together, bought champaigne, celebrated new beginnings. He got me card after card, flowers, gifts. We watched movies together, listened to music, cried. We cried alot. I thought we had finally made it, and that in a very strange way, the A was almost a good thing.

But H is depressed because he is living alone. I'm still working on the kids. I had to consider them before just dragging their dad back into the house, their dad who had done so much to hurt and destroy us. So in his living alone, his mind starts veering toward OW. At first he thinks its just a setback, but as time goes by ... for the past 2 weeks now ... he tells me he can't shake it. Now, that he DOESN"T love me anymore, loves OW.

OW is married and back with her family. I'm convinced H is not seeing her. That doesn't mean he doesn't WANT to see her. I know he does.

Last night was awful. He told me that he now likes living alone, and doesn't ever wish to return home. He told me that he has to trust his "feelings," and that they tell him he doesn't love me anymore, loves OW, and can't get over it. Of course, I try and talk sense to him, but it doesn't work because he's deep in the fog. He tells me how it hasn't been right for us for many years, blah blah. That our marriage now has more valleys than peaks. How profound.

I don't know what to do at this point. I feel like giving up, though I don't want to. I feel like I'm keeping him against his will, like I'm swaying him back to somewhere he doesn't want to be. At one point in the conversation last night he said, "You just never let me go." And I said, "No I don't because you're my husband, and I love you."

He was mean, cruel, distant, uncaring, and selfish last night. He dropped me off at home, angry. I left the car angry and hurt, and humiliated.

What do I do now?

I am not experianced enough to give advice but I read this this am and I am right where you are.

The difference with me is that one day things are great and then I find more messages and texting.

Plan A is tough. Giving up seems easier a lot of the time.

Mr. & Mrs W keep telling me I will know when I have reached my giving up point.

Stay strong.

Blind

Is your H seeing a physician for his depression?

Men usually resist seeing someone for this type of emotional problem ... if you can ... arrange an appointment for him ~and~ get him there yourself.... by any sneaky means necessary

here is my worry

he could be so depressed he might harm himself

he really REALLY needs medical attention

I hope you listen to me, he sounds like he's reached the end of his rope <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Pep

ooooh

this just gave me an idea of how to get your H to a doctor !!!

Call the MD ahead of time and arrange the appointment & give the MD a head's up about the situation (tell the entire story affair+kid's rejection+end of affair+depression) ... tell the MD you need an extra long appointment for this crisis & tell MD you are not sure if your H is having suicidal ideation <~~~ use these exact words

then

tell your H you realized there is no way you can hold him against his will .... tell him you will "let him go" if you know he is OK ... then drive him to the appointment to "make sure you are OK" .... and the MD will take over

make sense?
sound "do-able" ??

Pep

Pep,

I did make him go to the MD about two weeks ago. They put him on Prozaic. He took it for four days, and now he's not taking it anymore. I asked him why, he said it's because he doesn't feel so depressed anymore. I know he's also drinking at night, not a whole lot, but he is drinking, which may be another reason why he doesn't take the meds, doc said not to drink while taking them.

I have been concerned about him hurting himself.

Pep, should I just "let him go?" He seems like he just doesn't want this anymore. He keeps saying that the kids aren't talking to him, when, in fact, I have worked very hard with them and have two out of the three talking to him. I think he's just doing this to make it more convenient for himself to leave us behind.

Sunday is Father's Day. I got a gift and cards from the kids and me. I told him that. He says he will "let me know" if he's coming over or not. What a thing to say!

I think his plan is to get me to agree to a divorce, file, then he can go seek out OW, who is married. But I think he thinks he can get her back, and they will live happily ever after.

does he own a gun?

I think he's too depressed to have a cohesive plan ... which I why I worry about him doing harm ....

does he have parents? siblings? a strong male friend? a minister? a co-worker? what man in his life does he look up to?

you need some male back-up

Pep

no, thank heavens. He almost brought one home from Fl. His parents live down there and they have his gun. I called his parents during the whole crisis, begged them not to give him the gun because I was afraid of this. H wanted the gun because OWH was threatening him. The whole thing is such a mess, Pep. My insides are just hurting.

Yes, he has a good male friend here, who he talks with. His friend disapproves of the A, but can't seem to help him out of the confusion.

He also has a best friend from his childhood who he talks to on the phone alot. His friend is a reborn Christian and tells him to find the answers in God. H has never been religious, but now is finding God, reading the bible, and praying a lot. But I try telling him, do you think God wants you separated from your family? Do you think God wants you to carry on with adultery? Somehow, he seems to justify it.

Two weeks ago, when he told me he wanted out, it was a Friday. Then, that Sunday, he'd gone to church alone. But he was crying so much that he had to leave mid service. He called me, crying, asked if he could come over. So he did, he cried and cried about how he was a sinner, an adulterer, that he loved me in his heart, it was his head that was all screwed up. We reconciled again, him making promises that he would never again hurt me, that we would renew our vows. He'd spent the night, said it felt good being home, that he wanted to come home for good.

Pep, that was just TWO weeks ago. About four days after that Sunday, he starts on this evil path again. He has demons in him. How do I get them our, or can I even get them out?

Rlt...took my WH three months to get to the point where he knew his feelings were for a fantasy...no wallowing; just was. He mourned the loss of the OW before he got to that realization. Part of withdrawal...

I noticed your DJ with "wallow" and that you "made" him go to the doctor...do you think maybe you haven't gotten the respect injected into your marriage enough? Would be a great time to work on that.

You want to exorcise his demons...when they are his own. You have yours. Why not focus on yours...?

LA

LA, my H has a serious problem with this. For nearly our whole marriage of 24 years, on and off, he would go into this EA with a girl he met in college. But he hadn't even had contact with her in all this time. It was very strange, and very painful because I would find songs and poems all over the house written for her, while I was raising his children, taking care of him. Last night he said the reason he did that was to escape from me. These are the kinds of demons I'm talking about. I think his A was just an extension of that fantasy.

After last night, all the horrible, cruel things he said; then I get this email from H this morning:


I thank God for sending me an angel known as you
Who is always there for me no matter what I do, how much I hurt you, how much I try to destroy myself
You always are there to protect & save me from myself and the inner demons that drive my insanity.
I must be someone special in God's eyes to have ever been blessed a visit from you in my life
Please don't ever believe that all that you do for me goes unnoticed and that I don't recognize the pain that I continue give you.
God bless you Julie
God bless you

So, what do I make of this???

Help.

>

Rlt,

I am not criticizing you...I am attempting to show you that it takes two to make this dynamic work...

"Last night he said the reason he did that was to escape from me. These are the kinds of demons I'm talking about. I think his A was just an extension of that fantasy."

He can say it is to escape from you...and that can be his truth, not THE truth. He chooses this fantasy as an escape. That's fact. What from is his own...that's where you are gleaning a lot of pain and suffering...if you will understand that your choice to believe him, over what you know, is adding to the betrayal you feel, then you could halve your pain.

What makes his fantasy any different that a drug? Another addiction? Could have been golf (love poems for golf...it's happened, still doesn't fit the analogy really well, though, does it?), shopping, porn, food, gambling...lots of stuff. All of these are long-term escapes for false self-comfort. Being the partner of an addict can feel like being used, last place...and you have total control over that feeling. It is coming from your belief that if you were enough, then he wouldn't need to escape.

This is a damaging belief, isn't it? You are enough...you're whole and complete...I'm asking you to recognize this about yourself and your WH...because this is what respect is...knowing what he thinks, feels and believes is his own...and yours is yours.

He is wrestling his own demons...back and forth...why try to divine what he's thinking? In his email, he says you are always there to protect and save him...when this isn't possible in humans...we don't have that control...he doesn't see his choice, his power...nor his limits.

I'm asking you to see these...so you can stop this dance. Respect is the key. He is fully capable of handling what is his...and you, yours...and loving by choice.

LA

LA, I had to read this a few times to let it sink in. I understand what you're saying, logistically. The problem is that my self-esteem has been so beat up over the years with those poems and stuff, that it's kind of hard to undo in my brain. If he wasn't trying to escape me, what was he trying to escape? Don't you think that the actual A was just an extension of all this? H has serious, serious issues, I think. And I'm not sure how much longer I want to be mixed up in it all. Besides, if he really thinks he loves the OW, there's nothing I can do.

He was trying to escape himself.

Yes, it is difficult to undo in our brains...we've lived a long time in disrespect without knowing it...takes awareness and care to undo in our brains...

I believe human self-esteem cannot be knocked down nor increased by anyone but themselves...because that's why it is self-esteem, not mutual esteem.

When we don't know our boundaries, don't define or enforce them, nor our standards, we knock ourselves down...we harm ourselves each time our focus remains on getting others to do what we want, rather than on ourselves...each time you do for others what they are capable of doing for themselves, you are sending a signal that they aren't capable...and we do that to ourselves, as well, when we look outward for what is available inside...

We teach ourselves we're defective, need to be run from, escaped...we do it by judging others and ourselves...comparing us to OWs, strangers, statistics...how do we measure up...which tells self we're not acceptable unless we measure up well, excel, succeed...safety in scoring well.

You and your H believe humans earn love...and this may sound contrary to Harley, but I see it as a precept...what comes first before having the falling in love through meeting ENs and removing LBs...what must be in place before we can put into practice the four rules of marriage...

When we no longer believe we earn love...which also contains the belief we earn punishment (and then we only love when others earn it and don't when they tick us off) we do so by replacing that untrue belief with loving by choice. Then you wouldn't be mixed up in his stuff...his would be his...yours is yours...your choice to love him, your power...no earning.

Can you see how him thinking he really loves OW is living from feelings? If he believes he does by choice, then why would he choose to love anyone but his wife?

This belief is common when we live through others and not from our own selves...we believe others make feelings in us...when they are our own feelings...and when you own your own stuff, care about meeting your own ENs and stopping your own LBs...life becomes free, doesn't it? Being with your partner would be joyful, not reactive. You get your O&H EN met by BEING O&H...and your partner is safe to share themselves, loves sharing themselves, so ENs are met without resentment, SDs or a scorecard. Really becomes irrelevant.

This builds your own self-esteem...each O&H statement affirms you're worth sharing, knowing...and you are! Nothing your WH can do or say affects your worth...nor you, his. You are valuable. Up to you to own how you were made.

When we believe we're defective, wrong, harmful, toxic...we try to escape our selves...where our pain is, believe we're broken, dangerous...not knowing we aren't broken IS dangerous...blaming others is dodging added pain...looks like it, when it really adds more betrayal and pain...making self into a victim through fantasy.

Your choice to not continue...you have that right...that choice...power...if you do so to protect yourself, not owning your part, knowing your power...how will you not repeat this scenario with someone else?

We take our patterns with us...what I learned to do (as a HUGE patterner repeater) was flip stuff over...if you want him to stop flip-flopping, is that you wanting you to stop flip-flopping? If you want to stop this cycle, say stop...you have choices...boundaries...power...you're not being done to unless you choose to perceive it that way...

In his email, your WH wants you to believe differently than you do...and I see in your response, you want him to believe differently than he does...this is normal enmeshment...each only feeling safe in the other's response...as long as you both feel, think and believe the same, you're safe...and when you don't, it's like freefall.

My marriage was the same way, until we learned not knowing where you end and your partner begins isn't love--it's disrespectful.

You can choose to believe your WH does not love OW...what you believe is your choice. I'm asking you to acknowledge that your WH can believe differently. That's something you can do.

LA

LA, your responses are very intense. I read them over carefully.

The end got me. And if my WS does believe he loves the OW, I must accept that and move on? I like the part about love not being a feeling so much as a choice. He doesn't get that.

H. sent an email to me today ... says he's keeping his distance from me because he still has strong feelings for the OW. And found out from a note to his mother (along with some pictures) that she is not getting along with her H, that she still has feelings for my H, but is not yet ready to contact him because she still has hurt and anger over him breaking up with her and trying to fix his marriage.

Does anyone else smell a train wreck here?

What do I do. Stand by and watch? It's just a matter of one of them picking up the phone and calling, and the whole thing will start over again. In the meantime, I feel like H. is fence sitting, stringing me along until he knows what OW will do.

Help, again.