At almost 9 months post DDay things are getting better in a lot of respects. We're trying to meet each other's needs more - not completely successful as yet but MUCH better than in the past both before and after DDay - we're trying to move on. I'm finally starting to feel a little more like myself again but....

How long, if ever, does it take to really trust a WS again? Sometimes I really wonder if I ever will. I mean, I know I won't ever trust him in the blind, naive way I did before but I HATE all the suspicions and doubts I still have. Sometimes even when he's saying really nice or sweet things there's this ugly little voice in my head saying, "Yeah, really? Well, you said things like that while you were screwing someone else too ... so..." Anyone know what I mean?

Today I found myself in our garage searching for hidden porn (upon discovering the affair his issues with compulsive and obsessive porn use also came to light) and I just thought 'I HATE who this has turned me into.' He swears he isn't looking at porn anymore - though is worryingly defensive about discussing it - but I just can't take anything he says at face value anymore so I'm still constantly looking for clues. Even this feels futile as I know he's not a stupid guy. He hid both the affair and the porn from me really well for a really long time. If he as breaking NC now or looking at porn I'm sure he'd go to enornmous lengths to hide it from me. Sometimes I just think, is this really how I want to live?

I don't know what my question/point is really. Just needing to vent and wanting some reassurance I guess. I know no one can tell me if he's really trusthworthy now but I just don't know if I can live with all these doubts. There are still even things about the A that don't quite add up and I still wonder if he's lied about. But those questions have been asked so many times I see no point asking again.

Lately I've even contemplated contacting OW and trying to see if she'll give me her side of the story so I can see if they match up or find reason to leave (if not). Two things stop me though 1) Pride. I don't want her to know she still matters to me. I don't want to give her info on where we're at. 2) She probably hates him now and so how could I trust her anyway. She might lie to me just to get back at him/us.

When I contacted her after the A I got one very snippy, ****** email then she refused to speak to me. I still wish she could have had the decency to at least say 'I'm sorry for the pain I caused you'. I kind of doubt that she'd be willing to talk to me now but other times I think she's the only one - besides my H - who really knows what happened.

Thoughts anyone??

Thanks,

Lil

Lil - I'm not as far along as you are but I'm going to try something here. Reproducing what I've read from other, more experienced MBers.

You've asked your H the questions. He's given you his answers and you're not satisfied with them. You have to ask yourself - can I live with this?

Can you?

If there are horrible, gaping holes that you feel MUST be addressed then address them. Gather all of your data, prepare brief and grill him until you are satisfied that the truth has been revealed.

Are they minor details that don't mesh? If yes then cut your losses and recongize that the time and engery spent fretting over the recreation of a perfect picture of the past is time and energy better spend living life. Loving yourself. Loving your husband. Children. Friends.

Do you have a recovery fantasy?? Part of my own recovery has been letting go of that fantasy. I still find myself dreaming about it though. Then I remind myself that it's not real. Reconciliation is messy. No doubt. I'm learing too love this mess.

Maybe you could share an example of what you think FWH may be lying about? For some outside perspective?

With respect to snooping - this who we are. They betrayed. And this is what we do. I snooped pretty consistenly on my WW for a year and a half after her 1st affair. I suspect I'll be snooping for at least that long this time.

Grieve for the loss of your innocence. It's OK. Then take a deep breath and say good bye to it because it's GONE. You will never be the same. Your marriage will never be the same. And that's OK too. All of us here are wearing the scar of infidelity. And we learn, I think, to love that scar. With time.

Hi Lillian,

Welcome to MB.

I'm sorry that you have the need to be here, but it is a wonderful place to find recovery and peace after an A.

Please take some time to read around the site...especially in the articles section. I'm sure you'll find quite a bit of information that pertains to your situation and feelings.

In my case, it took quite a long time before I stopped questioning my H's every move, but it did happen, and it will happen for you as you move forward with recovery.

One bit of advice I do have is to stop yourself from contacting the OW (other woman).

I say this based on my own experience - you'll have to do what's best for you.

I did go ahead and contact the OW a couple of months after I found out about my H's A. My reason's were much the same as yours - I wanted to know the whole story, and to make sure my H had been telling me the truth.

It was a disaster!

Her version of things and my H's were different on what I considered to be major points.

Then, not only did I not know WHO was telling the truth, but I had more things rolling around in my head to be hurt about and more triggers to deal with on a daily basis.

The information she gave me, and refused to give me, made our recovery more difficult.

The fact is once your further along in recovery the details really don't matter, so do yourself a favor, and decide not to let them matter now.

The other problem with contacting her is the fact that you will be letting her back into your life and thus give her 'power' over your thoughts and feelings. Trust me, that's a terrible place to be.

Recovery is difficult to have when there's a third person overshadowing the process.

Take care, and good luck to you.

Thank you both very much for your replies.

Banyak, I think that's very sage advice. It's hard to imagine that her response - if indeed she could even give me one - would perfectly match what H has told me such that I'd feel better. There'd be bound to be discrepancies, if only because people's memories & versions of events differ at the best of times. I guess I've felt if she said, "well, actually, it went on 3 times as long as he told you" then I'd know I should leave. But, the likely outcome is that it will leave me in an even worse place. She's BOUND to say stuff that hurts me more. Just talking to her would hurt me more. And I don't need that when I'm starting to get a bit better. Nor do I need to give her that power, you're right. So a big thanks to you. You've brought me to my senses on that one.

MDC, your advice is also very wise too. I can't keep asking the same questions. it isn't helping either of us. But possibly one final, well-prepared for, Q&A session is needed to put certain things to bed. I guess if I still get the same answers then then I need to just accept he's telling me the truth or realise I can't live with the doubts and leave.

As for the things I still find hard to believe and getting an outside perspective, that would be very helpful, so here goes ...

The BIGGEST thing I have trouble with is as follows (sorry but it's a bit complex). The reason I actually discovered the affair was that my husband and I shared a computer - my main work computer - and after I'd been out of town for a weekend I quite accidentally - yes, really - saw evidence that he had at some point registered with the website of an escort agency in our city. (It was saved under the 'passwords never saved' screen and I got curious and looked at the site listed because it was obviously some sort of adult site.)

Coupled with this, there had been times when, shortly after payday, I would notice an unusually large amount of money already gone although I knew he hadn't bought anything big, we hadn't done anything major etc. I'm talking, say, $400-500 suddenly gone within two days of payday when we'd just been working and eating at home. I found this alarming but I never felt I could truly press him on it because a) We had enough money anyway and b) He makes a lot more than I do so I felt like I'd be hassling him about what he was doing with "his" money.

He swears up and down that he never visited an escort agency. That he was only at that site to "look for porn links". He claims it used to have a lot of porn links on there but all I see now is profiles of the girls and a chat room where men talk about the, um, skills, of the girls. However, I did see an email in his account that he'd unsubscribed to this site back in 2003. This backs up his claim that a) he hadn't looked at the site in a long time and b) for this reason the site might be different now. But I'm not stupid. It's not hard to put two and two together here - especially in light of him coming clean about his issues with porn -- and find this very suspicious.

On top of that, two months ago I said "Ok then, show me your back bank statements. Ask the bank for the last 1.5 years of bank statements and let me go through them." (Another suspicious thing is that when I searched our house I couldn't find ANY of his bank statements and his reason was simply, "I"ve never been good at keeping those things".) He said he would. I deliberately waited a month before mentioning it again. Again he said he would. Now it's been another month and nada.

So, tell me, what does this sound like to you all??? Surely I am NOT nuts for finding this hard to believe given all the suspicious evidence. But I've asked and asked and the answer has always been no. I dread finding out years from now that in fact he's been screwing hookers all throughout our marriage.

After finding the escort stuff I went searching through his emails for any further evidence and found the emails from OW. Those emails had been sitting there for MONTHS and I knew his password, but I simply had had no reason to be snooping before. I'm sure you can all imagine how horrible it was to be hit with those two things on the same day, especially when I considered H to be this totally loyal, honest, devoted spouse who would never cheat on me. I can't even describe how I felt that day. I think I remained in shock for a good couple of months.

I know I started to trust my H, but was slapped in the face yet with another woman. They never met up, simply because her H put spyware on their computer and everything that she typed to my H, he got and sent it to me. So, they were cut off at the path. Still that doesn't stop him from starting something else with another. I'm so tired of hearing, I love you and I will never hurt you again like that, but it seems history repeats itself. I now never let my guard down, because of all of this. He promised we will start to go back to conceling, so I'm still waiting. I've done it on my own, but like they say, he needs to address why he keeps repeating the wrongs. Good luck to you and keep your head high.

lillian you got to step farther back in viewing and approaching this situation....

you have to seek the larger goal of this marriage and your interactions....

He swears he isn't looking at porn anymore - though is worryingly defensive about discussing it

what's the point of discussing it....

nothing...

you need a plan with him..

a loving accepting plan.....
that offers actions

not are you
did you
why
why
why.....

that's discussing and it goes no where but in circles ...

have you thought about offering every mans battle workshops...

have you spoke lovingly about the porn...and not just about your pain over it....

if you don't come up with a plan to address the porn...that is loving supportive and has a common goal...this issue will not change...

ARK

Ark- I'm sorry what do you mean speak lovingly about the porn?

Broken- I think I'm in the same place as you! It's driving me crazy. I'm constantly searching for clues, answers, and H refuses to talk about it because he says all we do is go in circles. Also, says there are things that I don't need to know or want to know! what is that protecting me? Does he realize I need those answers? Is that his way of keeping me, maybe he thinks if I find the answers I'm looking for then I will leave him?

What you are going through is very well documented in the Veggie Tales video "The Fib From Outer Space".

Junior Asparagus breaks his fathers plate and the alien "Fib" tells him to lie about it. Junior does and the "Fib" keeps getting bigger. Everytime Junior lies the "Fib" keeps getting bigger and bigger until it is a huge monster that is going to destroy the town. There is only one way to defeat the now giant "Fib" and that is to tell the truth. As Junior starts admitting his "Fibs" the alien starts shrinking until it can no longer do any damage.

God I love the messages in these videos. We have our kids watch them and thats why it came to mind.

I have experienced the same thing as you are. Inconsistencies in my FWW's story that just didn't make sense. After 3 years my FWW just recently came clean and it was exactly what I basically knew through the evidence "IE the bank statements you haven't seen. This damaged our relationship because how do you trust a person that has looked you right in the eye and lied to you. I couldn't.

My feeling on the issue was this: she did not want to deal with the consequences the truth might bring. So as time went by I got more and more resentful about her lies and the way she was dealing with the truth. Every little thing she did wrong really ticked me off because I felt like she would not deal with the situation appropriately. She would ask if I expected her to be perfect. I said yes I guess I do because when you make a mistake you do not make the effort to undo the damage. So if you are going to make mistakes that effect us and not try to fix them then you shouldn't make mistakes.

For over 2 and a half years I kept telling her the lies are the worst part. I already don't trust you and you are making me trust you less.

Now here is how I got the truth out of my FWW finally. I told her I KNEW a lot more then she was telling me. She asked how and I said don't worry about how I know just know that I do. Do not give him time to leave and try to figure it out. I want you to tell me exactly what happened and if what you say is different then what I KNOW then I will never trust you again. I never threatned a D. I just said if you can live with me watching over you for the rest of our lives then feel free to be dishonest. From this point forward though never ask me again if I am ever going to trust you because the answer is no if you lie to me today.

I even gave her examples about how her past lies hurt her already. I told her I was going to buy her a plane ticket back east(where the A happened) for her nephew's christening but two days before I was going to buy the ticket I uncovered another untruth. At that point I did not trust you to be that close to the OM. If you would have been honest from the start you would have been there. She said she didn't believe me. I told her to ask my mom because I had asked her advice because I was struggling with the decesion. She started crying that she missed her nephew's christening because of her dishonesty. I know it sounds bad but her sister lives 5 minutes from the OM. Not going to sit around while she is there worrying my tail off.

There are consequences for the A already they just get worse as the lies keep coming out.

Since I have found out the truth a little over 2 weeks ago I feel much better. I spent my time and energy racking my brains out trying to figure out a way to get to the truth when it was right there the whole time in my FWW.

That was amazing... i pray that I can get to that point! Thanks for the post!

Hey, guess what....so I told hubby, as nicely as poss, that the bank statement issue was bothering me and if there was a reason he didn't want me to see them I'd rather he come clean; if not, i want to see them soon.

He said he'd been planning to surprise me with them. That he called the bank two weeks ago and they cost $2 per page -- since I was asking for 1.5 years it would cost $120+ so he'd been waiting until payday (yesterday) to order them and still planned to. This made me feel so much better. I feel he is being sincere. He says he will order them because he "feels it's important". Let's hope he's good to his word. Frankly the $ would be worth it for peace of mind but my peace of mind is already much better just knowing he has already taken action about it. (I called the bank ages ago asking if back statements could be gotten and how much they would cost so I know his story pans out.)

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Lil,

Congratulations on the progress with the bank statements!

I'm also glad to hear you've thought twice about contacting the OW - I know it's a tough urge to fight, but I believe the effort will be well worth it in the end.

As for trust, the best I can say is that it will come with time. For now you need to do what you feel comfortable with on a daily basis. Just try to keep a couple of things in mind:

You cannot know what the future will bring. Your best hope is every bit as likely to occur as your worst fear, so you have no reason to give more weight to your negative assumptions. All you can do is make the most of THIS day. Today you can choose to trust your H and/or the tools you've learned to use in recovery.

You can also take some time to recognize how far you've come, and know that tomorrow you will be further along.

It will get better, so hang in there.

Take care.

I know I'm at the end of my rope as they say, I told him that it's time for him to fight to keep me, I done my part. I think what really hurt the most this time of finding out, was he slept with the OW in our vehicle, now that makes me so sick to my stomache when I even get around it, even if I don't drive it anymore. Now the new OW is trying to blackmail my H, which I told him, well if you hadn't crossed that line, you wouldn't be there. I don't feel sorry for him about it. I just want to protect my children from knowing about any of this, this new OW is crazy. I think by the time we are all really old then we will know all that has happened. I believe in working on a marriage and saving it, but a person can only take so much pain. Good luck everyone, I know I'm still holding my head up, even on the days I don't want to.

BH- you can keep that head up! I know I've had many of days recently where I felt like I can't go on, but somehow, someway, I always seem to gather the strenght to keep going! I'm sure from all the posts that I've read that everyone on this site knows that feeling. Remember you are not alone, we are all pulling for you! Keep in mind that it's a day to day thing and you've made progress! Maybe not as much as you would like but there's been progress! Focus on the positive, and try to find something to laugh about today! A good laugh helps me make it through my worst days, when I don't even feel like laughing!

Ark- I'm sorry what do you mean speak lovingly about the porn

lillian what I mean is that if you two are in true recovery now is the time to address this issue IF it is an issue...

in an open honest way..

not with blah blah blah about how YOU feel about porn...but about the insidious damage it can do to HIM......

how it demoralizes himself
how it is an environment of safety and seclusion....that damages HIS abililty to form relationships...

people in true recovery are willing to face the frightening stuff inside of them...

that's why I suggested you look in to every mans battle...(while I don't like the title at all...) the program addresses men with PROBLEMS with porn..if that is what he has.....

this is the time in your marriage to quit snooping for porn behind his back...and come to him as his friend willing to help him...

ARK

Thanks, ARK, I see where you're coming from now! I also agree that now is the time to address the issue. First, I think that I need to figure out if it's a problem...I mean...I know that I don't like for him to look at it, and that's a problem for me. I'm going to do some research on it before I address the issue!

BH- I hope that today is better for you than last night! It's a beautiful day, don't forget to count your blessing!

NC

Do you mind if I ask how long it has been going on? The porn thing.

How often is he looking at it, how long is he devoted to it, is he hiding it from you, etc.

The reason I ask is that sometimes things bug us more after an A then they did before. If he has always looked at it and it bothered you then I understand. I am not advocating porn here so please do not hang me to the cross anyone. LOL. You have a right to your feeling re porn but if they have changed because of the A then you should realize that and act apporpriately.

If you feel uncomfortable with it now based on what happened then you should tell him that.

In this past month, there has been good and bad. I know he is still lieing to me. The worst thing I found out, the woman that he had the A with is coming back. I don't know if she will go back to work out there or not, but if she does, I told him, it would not work, I would contact HR again and refresh them on what had occured. He told me that he wants no contact with OW at all, I want to believe that, but when your lied to most of the time, how can you believe it. I'm just taking things day by day.