I applaud your choice to not read her emails.

Great self-care.

As for hope...

Do you believe humans have the capacity to change?

Do you believe fantasies last?

Do you believe how you live, what you believe, and think, matters? That it affects life in ways you can't see, maybe until years later, if ever? Do you believe your significance can be controlled by anyone else?

Do not sacrifice your truths. Hold them. You choose hope or you do not...not based on anyone else. That's faith. That's yours. Your choice.

You couldn't force reality down anyone's throat IF you tried...doesn't work that way, does it?

LA

jj,

How did you feel about the counseling session? Did you feel positive that he could help you? Do you have a follow-up appointment set? Did he give you any specific instructions and advice as to what to do & not do?

I'll let you chew on that for a while. I'll be out of town for a few days (my wife and I are going to Las Vegas for a much needed vacation), so I'll leave you in the capable hands of LA while I'm gone.

In the meantime, don't do anything rash -- and that includes trolling the internet, my friend. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Heed Steve's advice. He knows what he's talking about.

All the best,

-HD

I felt like it was positive and it could help, he told me not to ruminate on their fantasy, nor think totally good about her, bc she is a danger right now to me, I didnt get the chance to ask him about emails, he told me to basically positivly market myself, make sure I'm around when the fantasy fails, and You want some irony, OM got fired from his job friday, and when they seized his computer, they found an email to another girl about a dilemma he was having, he has been hanging out with a girl who he really loves, but still in cohorts with my WW, and wishes they would go in a room and fight for him, do you believe in Karma?

HD...Vegas? Nearly in July? Acccckkkkkk....

Hot.

Very hot.

I'm fanning myself at the thought.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Be sure to do the rollercoaster and death drop at the top of the Stratosphere...and yell, LA! when you scream, 'k?

LA

Another day closer to all this being over, I have enlisted the help of one of her good guy friends to help watch out for her bc of the sleeze ball the OM is, who in their right mind would trade in a doctor for an unemployed small time band member, maybe just too much ego on my part, i tried not to snoop but couldnt resist and it made me want to puke, i know i need to stop bc i'm loosing all respect for her, and starting to feel really sorry for her bc it is pretty pathetic.

Why couldn't you resist stabbing yourself?

Each time you do that...every minute you remain focused on her, betrays you twice.

Would you consider that each time you snoop now, you are losing respect for you?

What did you learn about yourself today you may never have known had it not been for where you are right now?

LA

You ask questions that I cant answer myself, I guess its easier for me to turn to resentment and anger than compassion and love, you do me wrong, then screw you type attitude, i guess it all comes from my childhood, and seeing my mom go through 2 divorces bc of WH, and I just want so badly for the affair to end so we can get in recovery, bc i begin to think that i'm crazy then i think i'm not the one who broke my own values and betrayed the marital setting, i know i shouldnt continue but i do, it is very hard not knowing what is going on with someone you saw and talked to everday for the last 11 years, and the i come to a thought i fight so hard for her but who is fighting for me? one day it makes sense then the next day it makes no sense, i try to analyze everything in my life, like you say i caused it then I can cure it, i feel powerless then powerful, blameful then blameless, worthy then unworthy, a rollercoaster over and over again, when will the ride stop, I know i have to stop it.

I only ask you to think on possible answers...and you hit on one I had not thought of...

You turn to resentment and anger...because it is what you know. It is what you learned, long before your relationship with your wife...do you think that would be reasonable?

I think I learned it from my stepmother...my dad was a serial cheater...I learned it as a coping skill, through her...if they do this, I do this...which is actually a good living skill...boundaries...only all twisted.

I do believe resentment was my drug of choice...and I'm drug free now...what an awesome experience...to know that was my drug and I made it myself.

Thank you for posting that...

Would you consider that part of your pain right now, this rollercoaster, is you triggering to your mom's pain...and how you want to choose a different road than she did?

You are fighting for you, what you desire, your marriage...not her...you can't fight for someone, really, can you? They do...or you run from yourself. I ran to resentment, fought against my H, making him my enemy...much like your WW is doing...when you are not her enemy. That's truth...Plan A is designed to influence her perception...to the degree she allows it...and there's no hurry up with perception...though, when the light does come on, it comes on quickly...and is devastating...that's my experience.

Your real power, which is a constant in being human, is your choice. You are choosing to stand for your marriage; to act, not react...the more you see and know your choice, the more the rollercoaster slows down...tough to do, as you say, because you've lived as I did, seeing what is done to you, not what we do...what we choose.

When you rest in your choice, your power, you are closer to peace...when you compare your situation and choices to others, you walk closer to insanity...your choice of perspective matters.

Even if you only compare your present choices with what you believed you would do if this ever happened to you...is a judgment...which nudges you away from peace. You know a lot more now then you did when you made pledges to yourself of what you would do if and when...which is why the crazy feeling arises...see why preparing yourself for the future can create chaos in that same future when it becomes your present? Because you already felt all those feelings, lived through it in your brain...and our brains cannot tell fantasy from reality...and here it is, and you're choosing differently...so where's the protection? The payoff for all that preworry and planning?

Well, you grew. Resentment will creep in when you have those righteous feelings...you aren't the one to betray yourself and your values...she is doing that...wait, can she betray your values? Or are those yours?

And yes, the routine of a relationship, talking every day, connecting, disconnecting, reconnecting over 11 years...that's a gap right now, isn't it? Not what you envisioned, or was it? Did you know what her presence, without a word spoken or an action taken, meant, or how much?

This isn't to depress you--I only learned the value of my H's presence when he left...before that, presence wasn't enough...had to be words and actions to make me feel loved...

Now, presence is enough...and I live abundantly in love.

What you choose to believe determines what you feel...are you finding that on your mental rollercoaster? When you give in to feeling that false power of causation...then you have hope of curing it...then you think, no, that isn't in my control, and you feel...what?...and plunge into that powerless feeling and blameless...freedom and victimhood, side by side...and then you change your thoughts and you see where you really are worthy, equal, and you feel...what?...before establishing that doesn't do you any good in getting your wife back right now...and the ride resumes.

Are you keeping a journal? How about a resentment/anger one? Give yourself license to write out all of it...going back to the beginning of your relationship, and write down every single resentment you can remember...big and small...in the other half of the journal, begin writing when you feel anger, and finding if before you felt anger, did you feel pain or fear? Really let yourself go and write it all down. Don't re-read it as you write...wait a day...same for the resentment timeline...then go back and read what you wrote, when you are in a calm place...by setting yourself closer to peace...and do not judge yourself when you read...get to know yourself, instead.

I feel like this strategy that I'm passing on to you is like giving you four hobbies at once...distract! distract! Here, tap dance, learn yoga and French...and watch all the cooking shows. LOL. That was how I passed pain time...pondering, training judgment from myself, even for myself, knowing my feelings and seeing how directly they came from my beliefs...tracing them back...reading, researching...find solace in knowing I was not nuts, defective or unique...lovely relief...in truth.

LA

I do miss my wife's presence, and I know I need to stop blaming myself, and stick to my beliefs and my truths, I guess its just hard me not to worry about the things I cant control, and you are right I said if anyone ever did this to me I would be out the door, and no turning back, so I kind of feel like I have let myself down, but I read in the bible, that God can only grant us a divorce due to adultery but that as Jesus choose to forgive those that cruxified him, I should forgive my wife and try to reconcilate, I pray every night for helping forgive her, and him to speak to her heart, sometimes i just get going on this train of destruction of people that have hurt me and it turns out to wreck me more than them, i'm also just fearful of not having her in my life ever again.

Knowing what you fear most is solid self-awareness...

Living by it is a whole 'nother ball of wax.

(Do you ever wonder where that expression came from? I think of ear wax...not too much fear there...but I digress)

Would you consider there is no blame in marriage?

Can you find your payoff in worrying about what you cannot control?

Did you, as a child, ever think, "When I grow up, I'm gonna buy my dad a Cadillac!" And then you grow up, and you don't...not that he'd take it anyway, if you did?

Going by those promises, pre-experience, in ourselves, can feel like we're letting ourselves down...natural, since our feelings come from our beliefs...and that's an old, outdated one, isn't it? As a BS, this is your option, your choice...however, there's no betrayal in choosing to love...we just have to remember to include ourselves in that choice.

When you made that promise long ago, you also had a different perception from limited experience, on getting through pain...as if instantly divorcing stops the pain...as an adult, cutting and running from a marriage doesn't stop pain, does it? Pain is...continues...so what looked like a solution before you actually experience the betrayal, proves not to be.

We often get feelings (information) from outdated beliefs. Adds to our emotional rollercoaster...only way to slow down the ride is to look at where our emotions are coming from and if they are up to date.

From the present...not the past or the future.

Did you know our brains cannot discern reality from fantasy? They don't know time...all time is now...so if we ponder on a miserable, awful future, we experience it real-time...and we hold memories as if they actually happened.

Staying present pays.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

When you pray, you can experience compassion and love, separate from reality, lifting yourself up to the Lord and others...great self-care and focus. Wait on the forgiveness, JJ...why not concentrate on forgiving yourself for not doing what you believed previously you would...

Same with forgiving those who have hurt you in the past...see them as you see yourself...do for you and you will do for others...you are human...humans do damage...humans love, anyway...find where you did damage and forgive yourself...know you have power and limits, designed by God...stay present and know you are choosing each moment...

You are very aware of yourself...I'm asking you to consider taking that awareness one step further to acceptance...which is how we know we are all equal...whole...complete...

You know that reaching for past injuries continue the wounds, keep them open...find your payoff in harming yourself this way, anew.

Would you consider loving yourself more?

LA

Were you that kid in science class that always asked why after every explanation, j/k, you bring up some thoughtful points, I think I need someone to love me to love myself, to feel wanted, but I know that isnt true bc the only person that can truly love me is me, the whole reality and fantasy concept confuses me, bc one person's perception or fantasy is their reality is it not, and i always seperate people into bad and good people, not equals, like good people who do bad things, and one things i havent been doing is loving myself, and I know that divorcing will end the pain, worry about what i cannot control makes me feel like i have some control of the situation, not easy for me to let go of things, and i do realize if i think of a bleak future i will experience that future in the present, i guess i'm really beginning to find out who i truly am.

Do you have the urge to stuff me in a locker?

LA

now i was the same person, i was getting stuffed in the locker

well, i did it again, she is telling a friend that we werent what each other needed, and she is happy with this guy now, and that she knows that she will not be with him forever but that she will ride this train as she says as far as it goes, and she is trying to finalize things, and that i have made it worse and have pushed her further away, still fog speak i presume? Another set back and prevailing weakness again.

What works for you...slapping your hands or squeezing you in a hug until your eyes pop out?

I wish I could get in between you and your email viewer...that would be disrespectful of me.

You're choosing this additional pain...

Back to healthy distraction as a choice you can make...

"I think I need someone to love me to love myself, to feel wanted, but I know that isnt true bc the only person that can truly love me is me"

I grew up believing love came in from the outside, had to be earned...had to get someone to love me to prove I was lovable...and you say you know in your mind that isn't true...how to get that into your belief system?

By proving it to yourself. Each time you have the urge to read her emails, which is toxic to you, and you don't, you're proving you are lovable and loving yourself.

Each time you give in, you add to self-betrayal.

"the whole reality and fantasy concept confuses me, bc one person's perception or fantasy is their reality is it not,"

My take on reality...truth...is our actions...not ourselves...how we define and perceive ourselves is ours alone...our choice...and through our choice of perception of others, yes, we can build our reality on fantasy...

However.

I was refering to our amazing minds with self-thoughts...what we think about is taken as real in our minds...whether it actually happened or not...like in that dreaming state, when we believe we're awake and we're really not...our brains are busy handing us everything we've trained it to...from habits...and we can retrain our minds. Our choice. Our power.

It does not hand us what is best for us, or make our highest choice...it is at the beck and call of our souls, our consciousness, and what we keep reaching for, it will hand us...

Like images which harm, cause fear and anger in ourselves, or delight...resentment...not because our brains want us to experience horrible emotions...to the brain, there is no good or bad...only what is called for (desired) and what is not...

When you get the urge to emotionally cut yourself, you can tell your brain, "I don't want that." Do it enough times and the urge will die away...because your brain will scurry to hand you what you want.

Is this weakness or choice? Habit/routine or character flaw?

Can you push someone away? If by believing in your marriage and choosing to love, she feels pushed away, is that you doing it or her feeling it?

Hers is valid only to her...your truth can remain different. You look at your actions, your choices, and see if your intent was to alienate or Plan A...if your intent was to be honest or manipulative...if you came mostly from fear or love...reactive or active...not judging, knowing your own truth.

Then you stand by it. Do not self-betray and believe you had the power to push her away.

We can remove ourselves...is that the same thing?

Can we really make adultery worse than it already is?

"I know that divorcing will end the pain,"

Really?

Have you divorced before?

Can you rate how you see my distraction effectiveness on a scale of 1 to 10?

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Your opinion counts.

LA

There was supposed to be a not before ending the pain, the distraction is around an 8, this self actualization and internalization is helpful, i think i have tried plan A trying to show her a loving husband and the lighthouse as they say, i do continue to emotionally cut myself bc if i dont feel pain then what do i feel, numbness? isnt everyone different and can we not learn to meet someones needs, no one can ever meet all your needs dont they learn to after some time? I'm trying to learn what it is she seeks, am i capable of meeting those needs? but what if i dont know what they are? I will not betray myself anymore, I will not succumb to the pressure inside me, I will no longer focus on WW but on myself, I will love myself, I will retrain my brain and grow, I am strong enough to do this, I will better myself, I thought I was honest about how much she hurt me and that we werent too broken to be fixed, i may have not done this in a calm manner however, but I'm slowly learning

Well I received my books today, his needs her needs, love busters, and fall in love, stay in love, and I gave her the info to talk to steve bc he wanted to speak with her, I only pray that she does it. Another day that didnt go well for me, i really miss her. In addition he suggested that I give her the book his needs/ her needs just to validate the content. I just reread our wedding vows and I know I take them seriously I just dont see how someelse can just avoid them.

What do you feel when you don't feel pain...

How about...what do you feel when you don't feel self-inflicted pain...

you might feel healthy anger, bottomless fear, soft peace, trembling anxiety, mildly content, slight enthusiasm, free falling happiness...

I don't know what you would feel...I know that I couldn't know until I stopped emotionally cutting.

Was worse the trip.

And what if emotional cutting actually causes numbness through repetition? Like the sure, slow beating of a drum, day in and day out...which you no longer hear after a day...like background noise?

What we do for ourselves, we will do for others...learning our own ENs and meeting them would be a great way to meet others' ENs...developing the awareness, recognition...the habit...

You are worth focusing on, JJ...you're valuable...priceless.

What is the pressure inside you? Is it about justice?

Is there such a thing as loving justice?

You have a lot to read...you don't have to answer all my nerdy questions right away...would you share what you feel as you read, though?

LA

I have felt free and happy when I dont self inflict, then comes this feeling of having to know everything then I go back, meeting my own emotional needs are easy, to be interested in myself, to inspire myself, to challenge myself, to care about myself, I guess the pressure is do I follow my head rational thinking, or my heart loving caring thinking, my family and friends care about shouldnt I consider their advice and move on and leave.

Addictions have predictable cycles, JJ...you're not weird.

They are tricky because they are the quintessential chicken and egg...hard to stop because you don't have a first thing...

My H could write this cycle better...I stumble. Please bear with me...

You feel free and happy, then comes the craving...why? Because free and happy is contrary to what you believe you should be feeling in this circumstance...it feels vulnerable and scary; fear trigguers the craving, which triggers the guilt of craving, which heightens the craving, to emotionally cut yourself back into the place you expect yourself to be, as if you're bringing reality to bring you down, make you feel, anything but free and happy...rinse, repeat...

Accepting you feel what you feel is the beginning step. No judgment...when you feel fear rise, feel it. Know it and hold it...and act free and happy anyway. This retrains your sweet servant brain...oh, you don't want the craving?

LOL

How is meeting your own ENs easy? Wow. Weren't for me. Even knowing them was tough...for me.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />

What's so rational about your head?

Your head says, "People who love me say move on and leave...and those same people have told me stuff I've believed my whole life."

There's no why in there...blind trust. Would you consider that when a loved one is in pain, you want them out so you stop feeling their pain? How does that desire or encouragement help you to understand and know your own pain and not act on it?

To perpetuate the cycle? A lot of what you were taught may be false for you...taken because we believed before we knew we chose our beliefs...doesn't make them the beliefs we want in our lives...

Facts: You have been betrayed. You can choose to divorce. Whether anyone says you should or not, well, that is entirely up to you.

As you read Harley, you'll find out many couples do not divorce from infidelity...and yes, popular belief is that they do...hence, the divorce rate. Nope. Infidelity was huge (60%) through all of human history...the one drug available in large quantities, you might say.

Any of your family or friends divorced from infidelity?

I think the advice to move on and leave comes like a mirror to the react instead of choosing to act.

If you do this, I do this...whether I want to or not. Quick reaction...boom! You hurt me, I bite back. The urge is huge...was for me. Reaction to reaction...what really does tear up marriages, don't you think?

You've stopped in your automatic reaction to choose your actions...your goal...to know you've done whatever you can, to walk away whole and wise, rather than to run from pain...and have the possibility of rebuilding a thriving marriage...

one way, you'll know more about relationships, love, and your half of them...the other, you could guess and wonder, feel valid, and maybe later, find yourself in the same place, confused and surprised...because you replaced the problem.

You're on a hero's journey...and if you want to divorce and move on, you won't have failed...this way, you won't have run, either.

You live for you...your life, your consequences...your friends and family do not bear your consequences...only you do...well intentioned, full of love and some self-protection...good to know. Love them, anyway. Choosing to do what you're doing will not mean they will love you any less. No loss there, is there?

LA