When I first discovered her A I found this website.

I liked the advice and I liked the columns on how to cope with an A.

I asked her to read the site. I even bookmarked it for her. I checked the history on the computer and she visitied the site once.

I asked why she wouldn't even read the site at one point and she said it was because she did not like being called an adulterer etc. I sent her Josephs letter when I was trying to get to the truth. She didn't agree with that. Because it didn't fit into what she wanted to hear.

I have told her about this site and she got pi$$ed at me for telling everyone our problems. LOL. BTW she goes to AA and of course they know everything going on in our lives especially her sponsor.

My FWW has a skewed prespective of the past. When she does something wrong it is in the past about 5 seconds after it happens and when I do something wrong it needs to be dealt with until she feels like she can forgive me.

She has actually told me she had forgiven herself a long time ago so it is a non issue in her mind. I didn't even know the truth so how was I supposed to forgive?

She does not understand the damage she has done since the A. Forget about the A.

During our last conversation I tried to make that point. I said there were two things I asked you not to do, spend money on yourself unless it is a necessity and flirt with other men. There were two things I have asked you to do, buy me cards and dress up in lingerie.

I added the two things up that bothered me and I came up with about 30-50 times since the A she has done these two damaging things. I then added up the two things I asked her to do. Tops it was about 12. BTW she has bought me two cards since that last conversation and gotten dressed up once.

I made it clear to her 3 years ago. I am not going to judge you or our relationship on this one event. I will judge our relationship on the effort you put into getting it put back on track. So far it does not look good.

She keeps saying it is in the past which it is. I agree to that point. But if you don't learn from the past you are doomed to repeat it. Right now I don't think she has learned anything other then to hide it better next time.

So hurtingless, what is your response when she continually violates your boundaries? And YES, she MUST deal with her issues before you are able to move forward...

How about trying to engage her a bit-type up your story and I will come on and ask for her side of things-you tell her about it, and then let's see if we can push some buttons to get her to respond...WSes who come here get pretty beat up if they begin spouting a bunch of fog babble...Many times that leads to change for them and can open up discussion for the two of you...I know that you probably don't want to rock the boat, but conflict is better than withdrawal...I dunno...I'm just rambling outloud as usual...

Hey, I don't know what the rules of AA are, but have you ever had the opportunity to speak with her sponsor? Or at least is her sponsor aware of her issues with infidelity??? Have you "talked" with Pepperband or MelodyLane here about your situation? Both of those ladies are well versed in the AA and Al Anon programs...and they are expert MBers in my opinion...


Mrs. W

Why do you think she would do anything that you guys agreed to? I mean, she couldn't uphold her marriage vows that she made in front of her family, friends, you and whoever her higher power is.

Also, whatever made you think that what she did would really bother her, especially as much as it bothers you?

Do you really think that you and your kids are her first priority?

Finally, whether she realizes the damages she caused, which I doubt because I can't believe anyone with a heart would cheat if they knew how bad it would hurt their partner, or not...do you really expect her to admit to it? Act like it? Be remorseful for it? First off, if she really let the reality set in and she cared, it would hurt her so bad she probably couldn't handle it. Also, she probably blames you for her behavior anyway. I mean, just read stuff like the "Why women leave" deal...it is all based around justifications for female infidelity.

You have made the decision to let this slide. You are a better man than I. I knew, that like you, I would never be able to get over it; I would constantly blame her, blame myself and worry about it happening again; I would dwell on it; and I would never really be able to trust her again. I don't know that I made the right decision to not let her come back home or not...there probably isn't a right decision, but I do know that both of our lives will be better in the long run, because, I am pretty sure, I would make both of our lives miserable because of it. I just could never get over someone hurting me so bad that I loved so much, when I know I would never do it.

Final point, if you are going to continue on with her, you really got to forgive and pretty much forget or it will tear you up forever. You will make your life miserable, hers troubling too. This is no way to live. What she did is not your fault. You did not deserve it, no matter what.

Good luck man!

MrsW

He11 would freeze over before she came here. I have asked her and the answer is no. She is not going to be judged by a bunch of resentful, spiteful people dwelling in their own misery. (Her words)

At first when she violated my boundries I let her know it was unacceptable. Then after I don't know how many times I just started getting mad at her. On the flirting thing one night we went out and she did it again. Her friend was there as well. Her friend noticed what was going on and noticed I was getting pi$$ed. Her friend said if she did that in front of him he would slap her. My FWW walked over like it was no big deal. She said and I quote "don't ruin our night it's not like I am going to sleep with him" After this particular night I slept on the couch for about 3 days becuase I didn't want to be around her. Barely an apology. Meanwhile I spent about $200 that night so we could go out and spend alone time together. LOL.

I have basically enforced my boundries by getting really angry with her. It seems to be the only thing that gets through to her. If I am nice about it, it will happen again. Not until I yell about it a half a dozen times does it set in that it will never be acceptable again. It is actually like dealing with a child. Give em an inch they take a yard.

As far as speaking with her sponsor I won't really do that. She is already not attending enough meetings and is stalled out on step 3. This is not a good sign.

I am waiting for her to get a little farther along to try MC one more time.

Kinger

I hear what you are saying. I am starting to feel the way you do.

Oh by the way she refuses to even discuss the A.
There is to be no mention of an A in our home.
It is in the past and there is no reason to discuss it.

We have never discussed it BTW we have done information confirmation sessions. What I mean by that is she get caught in a lie I inform her I have discoverd something then she confrims what I already know. The last information confirmation session was three weeks ago.
Three years of this before I had all the information for her to confirm. LOL
Coming up on the three year anniversary of her affair and our 9th wedding anniversary. Our 6th wedding aniversary she spent with him.

I'm no expert hurtingless, but I don't see your anger as an enforcement of boundaries at all...In fact, I'm sure that it's probably only a mild irritation to her...Something she merely "puts up with" to keep things at the status quo...She has honestly had no real consequences, and in looking at it from the outside, you seem just to be accepting her behavior...You do realize that you matter, right?

You sound overripe for Plan B to me...Let her get all of her needs met elsewhere and then see how much her tune may change...JMHO...

Mrs. W

P.S. Kinger, I am a FWW that does VERY MUCH care about what I did...I am doing and will continue to do all that I can to try and right what I've done VERY wrong...My husband has forgiven me...He nor I will EVER forget it, I promise you that...FYI, our marriage is better than it has EVER been...and he posts here too, so he would gladly confirm this for you...It sounds like you are in a lot of pain, I'm VERY sorry for that...No one deserves this...It is HORRIFIC!!!

Mrs.

Thanks for sticking with me.

I KNOW I matter.

I never thought of it as a minor irritation before.

I have come to realize a lot and right now I am just in trigger zone.

I am really upset about the fact that three years later I have new triggers and information to deal with.

The spending and the flirting have actually finally stopped but on her time. What she doesn't realize is these things have hurt our marriage. She lumps that in with the past. She has actually said I judge her on her past actions. LOL

What the heck else am I supposed to judge her on.

If her past actions were all noble she would certainly want me to take that into consideration.

She knows how great I am I just really think she just wants it to go all away. Which means I deal with it and treat her well and she doesn't have to show any ammends for the past. Because you guessed it, it is in the past and she can't do anything about it.

I don't even want to go home right now. But I guess I will.

HL - can't really help out here but I sure can relate. Accountability is a b*tch, isn't it. My PLAN in these cases is to example as much as possible showing myself willing to be accountable for ALL of my actions no matter how small. Own up to everyting. That coupled with restatement of boundaries HOPEFULLY gets me to where I want to go. We'll see.

It looks to me like you've been doing a fantastic job. You've got a very stubborn WW on your hands who seems to be conflict adverse and not easily given to introspection. Again, I can relate.

I've been relatively quiet because WW is not yet home. Expect to be posting much more soon. And a lot of my posts will look a lot like yours I'm sure.

Hang in there buddy. No matter how this ends up YOU are going to come out OK.

Sad thing about her not owning her stuff is that she will be unable to regain her integrity until she does this...You see, we can change the players in the stage that is life, but until we change ourselves the same act plays over and over...pretty tiresome...

hurtingless, it would be great if your wife realized this, but you need to get it too...If YOU change nothing, nothing changes...

Mrs. W

So, Hless, what's the plan to make things better?

Well to be honest my plan up until three weeks ago was to get radical honesty taken care of.

Now the plan is to monitor the situation and get into MC.

Her mom is coming out next week for the summer. So now we have a built in baby sitter.

I am going to find an MC and if at that point she does not take responsibility and continues to be unremorseful I will file for a D.

My kids are going to be 11 and 7 this year. I hate to do it but I have waited long enough.

If she does not take responsibility and continues to be unremorseful I will take the gloves off in the D.

Because of her past behavior I can get almost full custody of my children and I will fight to do so.

I know I will be accused of trying to punish her then but maybe when someone stands up and says that your past behavior does effect what you are entitled to in the future she will finally get it.

Maybe that is what she needs so she can be a better person.

hurtingless...

Ever thought of trying Plan B before Plan D?

How about using Steve Harley as your MC? Have you ever spoken to him? You already know he's pro marriage and believes in people taking responsibility for their choices...Using him would mean no chance of hit or miss on the counseling front...I know that your wife is anti MB(which IMO is just anti having to own her crap-any counselor that doesn't lead her to that conclusion is a waste of time and money)...You may wish to point out to her the ease and convenience of phone counseling...Whacha think?

Mrs. W

Well I might actuall consider using him now.

My insurance covers MC. My MC's were very good to be honest with you. The problem was my FWW. Like I said they knew she was not being honest. They had their hands tied when it came to giving advice.

My FWW went to the second MC first then we went together. I almost lost it when we left thinking this MC was an idiot then I asked FWW what she told them. She was less then forthcoming so the MC didn't know the issues. I went back by myself and explained the situation as I knew it then which is different now. The MC actually said well that changes everything.

The MC actually stopped seeing me and only wanted to focus on her. No MC just IC. This ended because FWW didn't like having to look inward at her problems.

I will find a good one and interview them before I go and find out how they counsel before even going. My M depends on it.

What is good for me now is I realize I am not crazy. I realize I have a right to know and I have a right to have what I want too.

I made a post before and I stand by the fact that I am feeling better.

As far as going to plan B I don't think it would work. She has agreed in the past when I plan B'd her to work then it stops. Not making excuses for her but it was impossible to make any progress with and alcoholic on these fronts.

hurtingless...

With all my heart, I think that you would be VERY WISE to call Steve Harley and come up with a plan for YOU...I believe that his coach approach would be very beneficial to you...And hless, all the MC in the world ain't gonna cut it til she owns her stuff...Concentrate on YOU...As I said to you earlier, if you change nothing, nothing changes...

On another note, I told you yesterday that I did not view your getting angry with your wife as an enforcement of your boundaries and that she viewed said anger only as a mild irritation...I said this because that's how I onced viewed Mr. W's "spending lectures" to me...I would go out and SPEND, SPEND, SPEND and SPEND some more...Now I knew that at the end of the month I would get a bit of a lecture, but to be quite honest, it was worth it...While I did not like the lectures, they were only mildly irritating to me, while spending whatever I wanted was F-U-N!!! The payoff was bigger than the punishment in my eyes...Now, I'm still a spender, just not nearly as extreme, because I now realize that it is much more important to have a happy, respected and non resentful husband...How he feels is of GREAT importance to me and vice versa-I have noticed that since I care about how he feels, he is much more likely to want me to have the nice things that I often crave-living this way is FAR more rewarding for both of us...Man, I've learned so much from Marriage Builders-I LOVE THIS PLACE!!! Anyway, hless, I also read how you identified with how I used to go on the offensive and get angry at Mr. W if he ever got angry...So I'm thinking that I "get", at least in some part, just how your wife operates...She'll keep pushing and usurping you, as long as you let her...

Please call Steve...just try him once and see what you think...

Mrs. W

Hless...

I think that you may be missing the point of Plan B...You do realize that Plan B is really for YOU, right? It allows you to hold on to what love that you have left for your wife...It allows you to get use to the idea of moving forward with your life...It MAY have a positive effect on your wife, in that it would prevent you from continuing to enable her selfish behavior and perhaps get her to hit rock bottom sooner, but that's gravy...Plan B is NEVER a REACTION to something done by your wife...it is an ACTION taken by you for you...

Mrs. W

I have been working on me a lot lately.

I agree with the me getting angry not having an effect on her. The spending and flirting have stopped because I made it completely miserable on her when she did it. Trust me when I tell you I was love busting like none other and quite frankly I didn't care because she love busted first. The Joy of shopping ended when she walked through the door and had her a$$ handed to her for it. As a matter of fact she calls me and asks to spend money now.

The spending ended when I told her to take whats in the bank account and that is now yours. I am opening my own and thats where my checks are going from now on.

The flirting ended in a similar way as well. I think it finally sunk in that whenever she crossed that boundry I was going to let her know. I love busted then too but drastic times require drastic measures.

Now what I think is that nothing happens until I get mad enough to make it a huge issue. I can never just ask and receive.

Most of my boundries are honored now. I really am to the point that I think allowing her time to realize what she needs to do may be a very long process and after three years of waiting to get to recovery I don't know if I have it in me.

Hless...

Please make an appointment with SH and when you do, make sure that you let him see a copy of your last post here-he will really be able to help you sort that out...I understand that you are frustrated, honestly, anyone would be in your situation...

Remember though, your wife's shoddy behavior is not an excuse for your own...Lovebusting and Bullying someone into what you want will NEVER make for a happy marriage for either of you...Stop...Breathe...Act, Don't React, and CALL STEVE!!!

Please understand that I'm saying this to you with the utmost respect and compassion...I would like to see you become a MB success story, be that with or without your wife...

Mrs. W

MrsW.

Thank you for sticking with me. I understand what you are saying about lovebusting, bullying etc. On those two occasions nothing else seemed to work. Plus remember at that time I also new she was lying to me about her A. So I had other issues. I was not in a clear state of mind.

I now am. I am thinking more coherently now then I have in a long time. I think that is why I am recognizing these issues.

I have a week until the mother in law gets here for the summer. Then I will start a plan of action. Her mom is on my side in this issue and that may honestly help.

I'll be keeping you guys in my prayers...With the exception of being a Yankee fan, you seem like a pretty stand up guy Hless...<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. W