You stated on a newbie's thread, [newly betrayed and in a state of despair] that:

"I understand the concepts of marriage builders. Matter of fact, the complete concept is why I am here. I am studying "group think" as a part of my PhD program. "Group think" is a powerful phenomenon, which is never more evident than in this forum.

I will probably post again. You may or may not agree with me. I hope you understand that reading what you want to read is not always the best. I hope that you can accept that educated, experienced people have rational, yet opposing views."
http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0&fpart=9

This was after you were criticized for telling a man in the depths of despair, who is trying to save his marriage and keep his family intact, that he has "no self respect" for allowing his cheating wife to stay in his home.

These are people who are here to save their marriages using Marriage Builders principles. [Please note the sign on the door] It is beyond cruel to come here and use folks for your stupid PhD project devoted to the study of "group think." These people are not LAB RATS, but human beings trying to save their marriages, using Marriage Builders principles.

Many of us are here because we have heard of the success of Marriage Builders. It has saved many of our marriages. It is a tried and true program whose principles were developed by one Dr. Willard Harley, who has "education" and "experience." His credentials are IMPECCABLE. He is a Licensed Psychologist since 1975, who received his PhD from the University of California in 1967. In addition, he has sold over a million books.

Now perhaps your credentials rival his, and you have saved hundreds of marriages and are therefore qualified to come here and condemn MB principles. But somehow I doubt that. And even if it is true, might I suggest you start your own forum and allow folks to learn about what they came here for: Marriage Builders principles?

Mel - I was just going to start a thread. I think kinger is right - this is a good example of group think. We all read the program here, and give advice according to how we understand it.

And you are right that many, many marriages here are saved and go on to be much happier than before the affair.

There is another kind of group think. It is when your spouse has an affair you divorce them.

Most of those marriages are not saved.

I have a question...if kinger is here to study "group think" than why is he disrupting the process by posting?

Actually..MB is a very poor choice for a group think study.

TOW would be closer..it fits more of the criteria.

"Group Think" around here. LMAO!!!!!!!

He/she's obviously never seen an MB argument in full swing.

And that's what makes it so good - diverse personalities and diverse opinions.

Mel, I'd love to see you swayed by "group think". And you, Noodle. I'm still LOLing.

Groupthink

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Groupthink is a mode of thought whereby individuals intentionally conform to what they perceive to be the consensus of the group. Groupthink may cause the group (typically a committee or large organization) to make bad or irrational decisions which each member might individually consider to be unwise.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groupthink

No, it doesn't fit this forum, because no one "conforms" to a "group concensus." Folks come here and try to learn Marriage Builders principles. It is no more "group think" than helping others learn how to skate. Nor does the group compel the others to make "bad or irrational decisions," which the individual might consider unwise.

As noodle noted, that description would be better suited to the TOW forum.

Believer: I am a little slow tonight. Can you expand on these thoughts of yours.

For the record, I think Kinger has ***some*** validity with his questions regarding the cheaters here....I happen to strongly believe that while these principles are good and have obvious validity and success...they are also like any other type of therapy for a condition...they can be equally as harmful to people. There are "more" than a "few" cases to prove that here. I am not making any statements of fact or generalizations here with this...just stating my opinion.

The principles here did NOT save my marriage (granted I never chose to use them for that purpose), but this board DID help to recover "me" as a person....so at the end of the day I stand behind the process.

Lem

LOL, Lem, he reminds me of a younger you and a you who first joined the board.

I agree that this is a poor forum for examining groupthink. Unfortunately, one must search many places to find what he or she is looking for. Often times when many people share the views, thoughts and principles of one person, they tend to take their individual experiences, morals, thoughts and reasoning out of the equation. I do not think that the majority of this forum displays these characteristics while posting, which is good.

I have learned quite a bit in the short time I have been reading posts in this forum. The power of this forum is evident. I wish you all the best of luck with your pursuit of your goal.

Kiwi..

Bring cheesecake and I'm putty in your hands.

LM - I was being facetious with the first part of my post.
Actually this is not a good example of group think because we have all read the principles and are supporting others in learning them.

My understanding of group think is like the Kitty Genovese case (I think you are too young to remember). A young woman was brutally murdered over about a 30 minute period. Many neighbors heard her cry for help - no one called for help. She bled to death.

Group think says that if there is only one person that can help, that person will act. If there are many, everyone waits to see if someone else will do something, and so no one does.

Huh???? Why would you think that ??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

you aren't kidding, Jen! It's the curse of my life sometimes! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I admittedly believed this place was full of spineless doormat heretics "back in the day". Granted I am still probably WAY OPPOSITE of some of the most respected members of the MB Divinity when it comes to thoughts on the "fog" and "addiction" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />, and repeated "second" chances, but alas, I am ok with that now. I don't have the need to prove it or argue about it to people. This comes with being comfortable with one's OWN life and one's OWN decisions. It is a process that this board helped me come to. So, I may disagree with stuff here, but on the whole...it is a good place. I do happen to believe that there are DEFINITE instances of "group think" here, but again..NOT the majority. I happen to think that ***some*** people use these principles and actually do more harm to themselves and families in the prcoess....AND tragically find encouragement (well meant ofcourse) for doing so. I acknowledge that this is NOT the majority of cases here, but it does happen.

It is for those people that I feel that I sometimes need to stay around.

Perhaps, a bit misguided.

Lem

Amen!

K - what was your personal experience? Experience is the best education, in my opinion.

What kind of infidelity study did you do?

I've spent years in Al-Anon - 12-step programs are also often accused of being cults (isn't that what groupthink creates?) - and I myself have misused the concepts of both MB and Al-Anon to justify unhealthy choices. Any concepts, including MB and the 12-steps, can be unwittingly twisted by unhealthy mind. In the process of recovery we come to a truer understanding of the concepts and greater acceptance of the process.

smells like teen spirit

I second what ChaCha said...
If you are studying GroupThink, then you should OBSERVE. That means shut the he!! up. You don't get to create drama just for your own excitement.

If, on the other hand, you have a genuine marital issue, then post and listen to the comments.

This situation where you randomly offer advice based on no experience and total ignorance of MB principles is not just asinine, it's just plain unprofessional. If you are planning on being a counselor of some type, you are off to a very rocky start.

Just in case you missed it on the other thread I am copying that post to you here, where you might be more apt to see it.




Kinger - I'm going to "tread lightly" here because I lived through what is known around here as the "DustKitty" incident. For those who know about "DustKitty," a group of college students doing "research" for their paper, your opinions and attitudes are not only suspect, they are viewed as "self-serving" and NOT motivated by trying to help someone in need.

I would strongly suggest that if you want someone to comment or provide input for your "research," that you start a thread of your own and CLEARLY state the intent and purpose of what you are "up to" or what you are requesting information about.

For now, I will give you a brief answer to your questions, that should have been obvious, but obviously is not because you only have an "academic" interest and no personal need or "stake" in matter.




Because marriage is a sacred COVENANT, not the cheapened, "animal instinct" sort of thing humanistic society would have us believe (ala Hollywood movies and "stars" actual propensity to marry, and marry, and marry, ...all because "no fault" is a lie to protect the selfish).

So here, as "dumb as it might sound" is the reason so many Betrayed Spouses DON'T do what they "said they would do" before having to confront reality:

"For better or for worse, for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death do us part."


Adultery IS the "worst" than can happen to someone by someone they love and are "vulnerable" with.

Adultery is the "poorest" that a "love bank" can get, and yet one that the Faithful Spouse will continue to try to make deposits into in the hope that the hemorrhage will end and the account can get out of the [color:"red"]RED[/color] and back into the BLACK.

Adultery is the ultimate in "mental illness" induced by "rationalization," "denial," and "justification" to allow aberrant behavior that is DESTRUCTIVE to all. It is a mental state in the Unfaithful Spouse that is called around here "Alien Abduction" because they behave very much like drug addicts (or rats) scurrying around in the dark trying to keep what they are doing hidden so the "fantasy bubble" doesn't burst and they have to face REALITY.

It is, regardless of one's personal belief, the working out of the "laws of SIN," in the same manner that any physical law can be "ignored" for a time. But then reality eventually "intrudes" and the "effects" of the immutable law is felt. Here is the "law of SIN," in a form that most will have heard and that ALL Wayward Spouses believe, consciously or as part of their self-delusion; "If it feels good, do it." That "lie" began to be so stated in the 1960's as part of the "sexual revolution." It's "kissing cousin" of false beliefs intended to provide self-justification was the concurrent line, "Love means never having to say you are sorry."

Love ALWAYS means having to say you are sorry for things YOU have done that hurt or hinder the marriage and the one you love. The RESPONSE of the Betrayed Spouse is predicated here, not in the delusion of Infidelity. While they both have the "same marital state," usually far from "perfect" or "idyllic," their personal STANDARDS are what directs their responses, at least until SIN causes the blinders to fall into place and the mufflers to be fitted over the ears.

That's enough for now. If you want more "research" for your paper, start your own thread, clearly delineating your objectives and reasons for your questions.

By the way, "Group Therapy" generally sucks, here or anywhere. It is one of the reasons we strongly advocate for Joint Marital Counseling for a couple trying to recover from infidelity.

But this does provide a place for much information and "kindred spirits" who have PRACTICAL, not "academic," interest and experience, who can simply let the person know that they ARE NOT alone or unique in what they are facing.