Thank you for your very thoughtful post "ForeverHers." I truely appreciate it.

I will not be using anything found here for any kind of research. I am sure glad I stumbled across this forum though. This forum provides a completely different view on infidelity than I had ever been exposed to.

You're welcome. I'm glad it might have helped some.



Interesting. Perhaps you'll decide to share some of what you've been taught and see how it "stacks up" to the "not so academic" reality that we have all faced and learned "in the trenches."




Now this IS interesting, at least to me. I'd be curious to hear what you have been taught or "exposed to" and what you are seeing as the "different views." You see, it's been our collective experience that good, competent, marriage counselors are very hard to find. I suspect most of that is due to the way students are taught, and what you said seems to add credence to that hypothesis.

OH WOW FOREVERHERS, I could go on forever and ever on this one...I will try to keep it short...

First off, I have a Master's Degree in Business Management, not counseling. My education, by any stretch of the imagination, is much different than a marriage counselor's is.

I understand the point that you are making, and it is very valid. "What the heck does some school teach a person about my situation?" RIGHT? Well, you are exactly right. Education never trumps experience. Marriage counseling has to be the most extreme example.

I mean, is there a right or wrong answer to any and every situation? I don't think so. Could an education curriculum ever include a course on, "What is the right thing to do when your spouse cheats on you?" NO NO NO! That is completely ridiculous. Each and every situation is different. Plus, I don't think a counselor, no matter how hard he or she tries, can keep his or her heart out of the advice. Honestly, no matter how long a person went to school, does he or she have the right to tell a spouse what he or she should do in this situation? I don't think so, but that is just my opinion.

Most importantly, the marriage counselor’s viewpoint is a combination of his or her life experiences; the values he or she was raised with, the slant that the educational institution he or she attended provided them and, even more importantly, how he or she interprets the couple’s story. This does not make the counselor bad. The counselor cannot help it. It is just his or her "educated" opinion.

I will probably post again regarding this topic, because I could go on and on forever.

Actually, Kinger, I think a GOOD counsellor will keep their own personal life experience out of their counselling.

They see the same problems day after day, they are trained to deal with them in a certain way.

A GOOD counsellor doesn't give their opinion anyway. They ask leading and open questions to help you find your own answers.

Our MC did give us examples of some of her own life experiences which weren't pleasant but she treated my H and me (I'm the one who had the A) exactly the same. She thought I needed the most work but you didn't need to be a rocket scientist (tee hee 2Long) to see that.

Kinger, the first area that needs defining is what a "counselor" is. Obviously there are many types of counselors, from financial advisors to spiritual to individual to marital, etc..

For the purposes of dealing with Infidelity we are talking primarily about Individual counselors and Marriage Counselors.

These two areas can be further subdivided in Secular and Religious, depending upon one's beliefs.

Basically, Individual counseling has as it's GOAL the individual. That is, helping the person through THEIR problem and/or in protecting their psyche. It is, for the most part, NOT focused on the "corporate entity" of the "marriage," the "one flesh" new entity that was created through marriage. It will "sacrifice" the marriage in order to "stabilize" the individual.

Marriage counseling, on the other hand, is less focused on the Individual and more focused on the Marriage, with the husband and wife as the two primary components that comprise the "one flesh" union (legal and/or faith based by definition). It sets the MARRIAGE as the primary focus and a restored Marriage as the goal to which the "parties" must "do their part" to make it succeed. Sometimes that means "taking the lead," as in fulfilling their ROLES as a husband or as a wife. Sometimes it means that one or the other is the "in control" person and the other follows in humble submission.

Around MB you will most often find that sort of thinking in the Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA for short).

The idea is simply that on major issues there MUST be discussion and agreement (enthusiastic, not the "oh, okay I'll go along to not make waves" type) or it does NOT get done.




Ahhh...this is where you and I would disagree. There is always a "right or wrong answer to any and every situation."

To NOT have "absolutes" is anarchy, and is a favorite "rationalization" ploy of those wishing to "choose poorly." That does NOT mean that all "right" answers are EASY to do or implement, but it does mean that if we begin to compromise on "right and wrong," the "slippery slope" has begun and we wind up with "wrongs" and futher rationalizations and justifications for lowering "acceptability" of morals and mores and more importantly, PERSONAL STANDARDS and BELIEFS.

If you do not understand the difference between Standards and Boundaries, I would suggest you do some research in those areas, because it is VITAL to each individual to have a clear understanding of not only what they are, but WHICH ONES they will personally embrace for their own life.




Kinger, this where, in my humble opinion, you are dead wrong.

You see, we ALL approach life, situations, and interpretations of FACTS, from a preconceived viewpoint, or set of presuppositions, that "color" and "influence" how we see the data and the facts. Data and facts don't change, it is the interpretation of them that changes based upon the personal bias and presupposition of the observer.

When it comes to Adultery, there is very little, if anything, "new" under the sun. There is a "manual" and "textbook" that virtually ALL Unfaithful Spouses follow as their "bible". Oh there may be some small differences in each situation, but on the whole a "car is a car." Differences in model, make, and color don't change the basic car or what makes the car "go." When the gas tank is neglected, when the tuneups are not done, when the tires are not rotated, when the oil is not kept clean and full...the basic maintenance things, we should NOT be surprised when the car is Found on the Side of the Road Dead. To use the FORD acronym, marriage IS "Fix Or Repair Daily." Yes, it takes work, some of which is "dirty" and some of which may sometimes require the help of and "expert" to fix the more serious problems that might be beyond the current skill level, or knowledge, of the "car owner." Marriage is no different.

Just as there are precious few "courses" in how to be a parent, there are precious few "courses" on how to be married, successfully.

That usually begins from the presupposition of WHY there is such a thing as "marriage," let alone Monogamous Marriage.

And that brings one straight to Faith, to God...and THAT is why it is NOT taught in schools today. The secularists have "kicked God out of school" as being "irrelevant" or somehow "damaging" to the poor "skulls full of mush," to borrow a phrase from Rush Limbaugh.

I'd go into that more, but then I'd be "knee deep" in religion and the Scriptural purpose of Marriage. So suffice it to say for now that Monogamous Marriage was created and instituted by God for Man....for a reason. It is Man and Woman, who in their selfish, self-serving, *** ME FIRST **** belief that THEY are the "most important," cause the "cavalier" approach to marital covenants that we see running rampant today.

So the educators "throw up their hands" and say "what can WE do?" "All things are relative, so we can't teach "right and wrong" or even what ***I*** think is right." "You must all fend for yourselves and stumble along blindly in a union that REQUIRES YOU TO GIVE OF YOURSELF instead of TAKING for yourself all the time."

What we get are teachers like Ward Churchill or the "Teacher babes" who think it's "okay" for them to have sex with young, horny, easy to manipulate, male students, because they are "consenting." Right and wrong DOES exist, but RELATIVISM is alive and well and running rampant through our campuses across the nation.




We have a difference of opinion here, Kinger. A counselor not only has the "right" to tell them what they should do, he/she has the OBLIGATION to do so. To not do so allows the "inmates" to run the "asylum." You see, it goes back to the previous talk about "presuppositions" and "right and wrong." IF you approach it from the perspective you are advocating, then there is NO NEED for any counseling because the individual husband and wife is a "law unto themselves."

Right and Wrong MEANS that we DON'T always get to do whatever it is we "feel" or "want." Some of this has been codified into laws, so that if YOU think you are entitled to what belongs to someone else, they call it theft and you go to jail even if you still think you are entitled to their "stuff." Marriage (and Divorce for Fault) used to be like that also. Today, there are very few States left, thankfully mine is one of them, that still have TEETH in "Alienation of Affection" lawsuits, recognizing that theft of a spouse IS equivalent to kidnapping and brainwashing someone to get "what they want" regardless of who the legal "owner" is.

Do you realize how ludricous this situation has gotten when you CANNOT sue someone for coming into your "house" and stealing your wife or husband without your knowledge or consent, but that if a telemarketer calls your house on the phone to try to SELL you something and give you the choice to buy or not to buy whatever "service" or "product" they are selling you can sue them for $11,000 PER violation, IF you have chosen to have your name on list called the DO NOT CALL LIST? It would seem to make more sense to have a "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY WITH MY SPOUSE" list, don't you think?

Kinger, it is NOT keeping "his or her heart out of the advice" that is the point or the issue. I EXPECT and WANT the Counselor to bring both their heart and their mind bear on the situation that is "out of control" or "spiraling downward" if it's caught before falling into adultery. I EXPECT the Counselor to be a guide and mentor, not a "buddy" who WON'T say the "hard things" that are needed or who WON'T confront "right and wrong."

Conflict Avoidance, in a marriage or in a counselor, or in business for that matter, RARELY solves anything. Some things are minor and don't really need to be "confronted," such as I like mustard and NOT ketchup on my hotdog and you think it should have just ketchup or perhaps both. Other things, like sleeping with someone who is NOT your spouse really DO need to be addressed. The "issues" that comprised the "marital atmosphere" that contributed to one spouse thinking they had to "go elsewhere" to get their needs met has to be addressed.

"Thou shalt NOT commit adultery" IS a religious prohibition. It has been secularized in many quarters, but the WHY gets left out. "Until death do us part" gets twisted into "until I no longer feel loved and then I'm 'outta here!'" "Don't I deserve to be happy?" is the plaintive justification latched onto by virtually all unfaithful spouses.




Of course we are the "sum of all our parts." That has never been the issue. Would you go to a moron for advice on investments? No, you'd seek out a person who has both been trained and who has some "practical experience," who might just know "more about it" than you do. Why do you see hiring "signs" that say "college degree required," " minimum of two years experience required," etc.?

"This does not make the counselor bad. The counselor cannot help it."

Think about this statement, this "belief," for a minute.

We are not to "judge" someone else, right?

"Judging" is, itself, "bad" and perhaps "worse" than the situation itself, right?

The fact is that there are, unfortunately, MANY Bad Counselors out there. A "shingle" no more makes them competent counselors than a diploma or degree makes one a competent to perform brain surgery, or to run a complex corporation without first gaining some very practical experience.

What happens is that the person's OPINION gets elevated to OMNISCIENCE based up what the "counselor" FEELS, not what is "right or wrong."

And as virtually everyone MarriageBuilders will tell you that they have "learned the hard way," FEELINGS (emotions) will LIE to you almost every time. "Impulse shopping" might be "okay" in grocery store, but neglecting basic nutrients will lead to medical problems, and that is a KNOWN fact. The same sort of thing applies to relying on Emotions to make your decisions vies-a-vie a marriage or whether or not to HONOR your VOW of fidelity.

The "slippery slope" into adultery begins, in most cases that are not Class I or Class III affairs, with "innocent" sharing with someone other than one's spouse. It starts as a "friendship." A "fantasy bubble" is created wherein only the "good feeling" things are allowed in and "reality" becomes a negative and "flaws" in the spouse are accentuated. Before long....more time is spent with the "friend" than with spouse and an "island" condition is established wherein the unfaitfhul spouse is living "two lives." Once there is a verbal expression of caring, of "love," for the OP, it's only a matter of time before the Emotional Affair is consummated in a Physical Affair....and the "dirty deed is done" and the Emotional Carnage of "believing the lie" is laid on the side of the marital road just waiting to explode and cause untold damage to everyone.

"God didn't REALLY mean what He said" has been the lie told since the beginning of time. Since we, as a society, most often reject God, it should not come as any surprise that we also find rampant rejection of "God's Laws" and rampant subsitution of the "soveriegnty of the individual" in ALL matters.

Think I might be wrong? Look around. For a Nation, and indeed for much of the world, that places little value on the sanctity of human life or it's inherent right to exist, there is little reason to believe that ANYTHING might supercede one's "individual right to decide what is 'right and wrong' for themselves," in effect, elevating themselves to the "god" who sits on the throne of their lives with the RIGHT to do whatever they feel like doing.

Kinger, I suspect that you are young. You may or may not be married yourself. But marriage is SERIOUS business and should NOT be entered into lightly. I don't know your personal beliefs regarding God, or religion in general, but make NO mistake about it, those "personal beliefs" have a HUGE bearing on so many things, and Fidelity in Marriage is just another casualty of complacency, lack of knowledge, and a testament to Emotions Run Amok when given control over our lives. Once we start putting "feelings" as the "Standard" of what we allow ourselves to do TO others, we abandon the mind and let "below the beltway" control "right and wrong."

So, WHAT Standards and WHY are two of the most important questions ALL of us need to answer for ourselves. Then we need to understand what a potential spouse has embraced as THEIR personal Standards to avoid being "Unevenly Yoked" in marriage.

kinger, I'm sorry if I missed it, but what is your story of infidelity? Perhaps if you told us a bit of your experiences it would make things clearer.

C'mon, FH! How many times do you need to be told that Godlessness does not equate to hedonism?

I've got news for ya - monogamous relationships among humans has existed WAY longer than the written word. - way longer than "marriage." Heck, many of our cousins in the animal kingdom practice monogamy. How can that be? Don't delude yourself into thinking your faith originated the idea.

But you're right - your God has been kicked out of the schools because in a civil society embracing different ideas there could never be agreement over which God ought to be there. And the secularists didn't do this - it was done with the full endorsement of the faithful in order to NOT intertwine religion and government.

WAT

What an interesting topic. As far as "group think" goes....I find it hard to believe that folks can deny that we have some of that here. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> Here are:

Eight Main Symptoms of Group Think

1. Illusion of Invulnerability: Members ignore obvious danger, take extreme risk, and are overly optimistic.

2. Collective Rationalization: Members discredit and explain away warning contrary to group thinking.

3. Illusion of Morality: Members believe their decisions are morally correct, ignoring the ethical consequences of their decisions.

4. Excessive Stereotyping:The group constructs negative sterotypes of rivals outside the group.

5. Pressure for Conformity: Members pressure any in the group who express arguments against the group's stereotypes, illusions, or commitments, viewing such opposition as disloyalty.

6. Self-Censorship: Members withhold their dissenting views and counter-arguments.

7. Illusion of Unanimity: Members perceive falsely that everyone agrees with the group's decision; silence is seen as consent.

8. Mindguards: Some members appoint themselves to the role of protecting the group from adverse information that might threaten group complacency.

I see elements and examples of all of that here! Yikes...and plenty! Does that mean I think MB is all about group think????....NAH!! There's lots of great stuff happening here and lots of independent thought and thinkers too. Group think is all around us and probably a part of any sort of organized group....and can be destructive when people are discouraged from thinking independently or questioning ideas.


kinger....I have a different answer for this than FH. He gave you a faith based answer and mine is more focussed on the practical aspects of the MB philosophy. Much of what works to end infidelity is counter-intuitive....meaning what we think will work....doesn't. Anger, rage, disrespect, drama, threats, ultimata etc have low odds for success....It IS a completely different view about infidelity because what WH discovered was that the process other MCs were using didn't save marriages. In my view....a good counselor has three clients...the husband, the wife and the marriage. WH concentrates on how to save all of them and that's what sets him apart from many counselors because the preservation of self respect is not necessarily being LESS compassionate....but MORE. Remaining calm in the midst of chaos. Controlling emotions rather than letting anger and pain rule the day. The other silent clients....are children....and since WSs are very often incapable of calm....they benefit greatly by having at least one parent who isn't reacting. Nurturing self respect is more than just kicking someone to the curb. You mistake these concepts....because a true understanding would not leave you with the impression that a BS should walk on eggshells or worry about making the WS mad. Confrontation and exposure along with addressing the vulnerability of the marriage...creates much greater odds for overcoming infidelity it seems that simply supplying the WS with their "just desserts". It's a common misconception....the appearance that MB coddles the WS and exposes the BS to disrespect....but not at all what this program is about when you delve deeply into it.

star*fishy - thanks for the hallmarks of Groupthink.

Sounds like, er, well, a lot of organized religions. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

WAT

hehehehheeh.....sounds like scouting, my bridge group, organized sports....all kinds of stuff. The important thing I guess is not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. MB, by my estimation has plenty of group think....that's the dark side of MB....the yin and yang of it....but we also have "the force" with us as well. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

***, you are, of course, welcome to your opinion ***********edit*******Didn't say anything about Hedonistic, *****EDIT*******

*******************edit************

No, you prefer unproven, unscientific BELIEF in the non-existence of God and the belief in some kind of "evolution" to explain everything even though it can't work by it's own stated presuppostions.

Thanks once again for reminding me of why it is time to leave this system to the likes of you and your "tolerance" of opposing viewpoints. After all, people of faith are not welcome in your universe. Or perhaps that's just narrowed down the bigoted position of just Christians not being welcome.

*************edit*************

***************edit***************



And while we are at it , what the Constitution prohibits is the establishment of a STATE religion for the entire country. You conveniently and consistantly forget to mention that the Constitutions ALSO prohibits the STATE from abridging our right to religion, in private and in public. ******************edit*************

But you are in luck, You'll only have to face Christ and reality once. Lucky you.

But you are sincere, I'll give you that. ****EDIT*****. I can live with that. Now, if you EVER want to talk about the FACTS of origins sometime, sanely and calmly, I'll be happy to oblige. *****EDIT*************

yikes FH! I hope you self moderate this last post....because surely, even you, can't claim that it's a "Christian" response. I'm probably a crummy Christian compared to you....but I can't reconcile your response with anything I understand about religion or the teachings of my church. I know you and wat have a history....he's good at pushing your buttons, and you're responding to much more than his one comment....but I hope you love God more than you hate wat. You have done more in this post to make folks question Christianity than anything wat could have said. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Starfish, have it your way.

One more time WAT gets to attack with impunity and anyone daring to take him on is called "unChristian" and doing more damage, as if that were even possible.

This is NOT a site trying to lead anyone to Christ. This is a site where ADULTERY is discussed, and if Adultery is NOT "anti-Christlike," then I don't know what is.

STANDING up for Christian beliefs is WRONG, isn't it?

"I can't reconcile your response with anything I understand about religion or the teachings of my church." Well, I know nothing about your understanding of religion or the teachings of your church, so you've got me there.

So tell me, WHAT specifically in what I wrote to WAT is causing you "heartburn"? And how does that contradict your concept of religion or the teachings of your church?

Perhaps then I'll be in a better position to respond you to and your apparent support of WAT's diatribe that I responded to.


"I hope you love God more than you hate wat."

Uh huh. Of course I do. Perhaps you think I hate WAT, but that is YOUR perception. I don't "hate" WAT, I think he is loud, misguided, foolish, and bigoted toward God and Christianity in particular. I am NOT afraid to stand up and say so. If that equates to "hatred" in your book, then I'm sorry. What do you, by the way, call WATS' invectives? Love? Caring? Compassionate? Brave? Courteous? Kind?

You need to understand something, Starfish. WAT is as intolerant of Christianity as the radical Islamists are. WAT sees people of Faith (or at least the Monotheistic Faiths) as being "infidels" that are against him and his interpretation of his faith. It's about WAT determining what everyone should believe and then attempting to enforce that upon everyone else. That's what is behind his attacks on God, Creation, and "public schools." They're only "public" if it's WATs' public. The rest of us get to have him establihs a STATE religion of atheism and intollerance for anything that might offer and CHOICE to people. WAT wants to impose HIS concept on everyone. THAT's what is behind his dogmatic stance about not wanting any mention of God, let alone Creation as a Model of Origins, to be discussed scientifically in "public schools."

Personally, I equate his beliefs to a "religion" and would advocate that if he wants ONLY the Evolution Model of Origins taught, he should open Private Schools to teach just that. But WAT assumes that others can't think for themselves and that they might somehow be "damaged" by the mere mention of God or that the Creation Model is equally valid as the Evolution Model for evaluating what we DO see in the physical world.

So do we let such bigoted and narrow minded thinking be "accepted" because no one has the stomach to say "no, you are wrong"? I'm sorry, it's people like WAT, you, and ME who nailed Christ to the Cross with our sins. I will NOT stand by and watch WAT make a mockery of Christ's sacrifice and say nothing.

If that is distressing to you, I do apologize to you. Folks can read or skip anything I've posted. They are MY opinions, "Politically Correct" or not.

Wow, FH - why do you afford me such power over you?

I won't spend the time to refute your statements - other than to recommend you hold up a mirror when you use the word "bigot."

The only time I challenge you here is when you display intolerance and bigotry. - when you place your values and beliefs above others. - when you arrogantly poo poo the right of existance of any other world view. And I'll continue to do so until you learn how to practice what you preach.

But - since you opened the floor to discuss the US Constitution, I'll provide you a US history lesson tomorrow. Until then I guess I'll go kick some puppies and rob some old ladies.

WAT

Save your breath and your fingers, WAT.

You have effectively killed my particpation in this thread and I have zero desire to discuss anything with you since you don't "discuss" anything, you just attack and them claim "innocence" when someone has the temerity to "take on the almighty WAT and his secular humanism."

You don't like my participation or what I have to say, that's fine. You talk to Kinger, I'm done.



WAT, I give you an A+ for sanctimonious babble and obfuscation. You have mastered the art. I'll just sit at your feet and watch and learn how YOU practice what you preach.

Now, why don't you go read my posts to Kinger and tell me exactly where, in your opinion, I place my "values and beliefs above others. - when you arrogantly poo poo the right of existance of any other world view." Then show me how you tolerate any other "world view," unless it happens to be a Christian world view."

FH:

At some point........any point, you are gonna have to take and long hard look in the mirror and think....."maybe it is not always someone else". There are many variables with you on these boards.....but always ONE CONSTANT.

Think about that for a moment in between rants.

Lem

Off Topic to Lemonman..I got to see Meadowlark a few weeks back when he was in town promoting a basketball camp for underpriv. youths.

I apologize for the bad turn on this thread--I've may have inadvertantly led it into the Christians v World arena when I mentioned that Western (Christian) rules don't apply to the rest of the world. I think we as humans must do a better job of teaching our children and supporting our neighbors and relatives when fighting the battle against infidelity.

As high schoolers, kids learn it's ok to cheat, as long as you don't get caught. Kids watch their parents modeling the same formula. Only when you've had the chance to meet infidelity face to face, do you realize the pain and destruction it levys on marriages.

Kinger's study is an interesting one (group think) and it is certainly prevalent here. Unfortunately, he tainted his experiment by saying anything. We all know that the best way to study is to have a minimal impact on the situation yourself. Now that's all blown to he!!. (Which is probably where I'll end up one day anyway.)

Hope FH and WAT can take a lesson from Rodney King and get along, since I think they both have a lot to offer folks in this forum. Temporary truce? Detente? Cold War?

Lem, never was much good at mindreading, so why don't you just spell it out as you see it. Then I'll consider what you have to say.

imanotherone - Let's get this straight. You want a truce between WAT and me? Believe it or not, I didn't say ONE word to WAT. Never mentioned him, never directed one comment toward him. Was having a nice, calm, discussion with Kinger and then WAT shoves his nose in, NOT to contribute to the discussion but to rag on me with his "I've got news for you buddy" routine. News Flash....I don't need any "news" from WAT or his personal bias. His opinion is HIS. He can state it all day long for all I care. But when he DIRECTS his attack at me, I WILL respond. HE went looking for a fight and I did not.

So if you want to advocate for a "truce," begin with the one who started the "war" and then wants to make out like I'm the "BAD GUY" responding. Sounds too much like he thinks just like a WS does in justifying his actions and then claiming someone else is the "bad guy" when they won't put up with his nonsense.

It's too bad that he can be rather rational until God and Christianity is brought up. Then he goes on his crusade to ridicule, malign, and slander, while trying to say "it's your fault I'm behaving like this."

For the record, I had a "Truce" with WAT in that I ignored his threads and did not comment on anything he said. What I DID was to withdraw from most commenting and advice and ceded the "ground" to his "infallableness."

But this "bad guy" will simply retreat from participation again, wondering what it is with so many here that they can't see who "started" the fight? Or maybe it's just that they think Christians should simply be willing "doormats" to anyone who wants to walk all over them and their beliefs simply because they reject them for themselves and don't want anyone else to think differently.

Kinger suggested a newby 'go for it' with a flirting 'girl' at his office. Kinger didn't know that the 'boy' who posted knows the 'girl' is legally married and may or may not be living w/ her husband.