Hi all

I first posted this in Pat's Quick Start Guidelines for WS cos something in one of the threads strikes me......

about basic condition being WS remorse.....

Not sure about etiquette here but felt it's inappropriate to mess up the wonderful post of Pat's with my question.

So I transferred my question & LA's response here.

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My question :

I'm BW. MB has helped me with a through Plan A & ..... still going.......

Checked out this & found this very insightful re WS.

The question that's being on my mind recently is remorse.
Whatever WH has or has not done, I am bothered cos I judge that WH lacks remorse.

Without remorse, WH will always remain a malfunctioning compass. How can WH get there? Anything anyone, BS, friends, church etc can help get WH there? Can BS help at all? Should BS help? Does this remorse have to be found by WH on his own? But WH is in the fog......

Brief background story
- WH called over the phone to break off with OW 2 weeks ago. No NC letter yet. In absence of NC letter, I made WH swear (on something not exactly pleasant, shall not elaborate here. I did it in moment of anger., regret....)

- WH admitted they have been in contact for biz. They are biz partners.

-Did not followup & insist on NC letter or start WW3 with biz contact due to biz financial issues. Some financial crisis that's having much bigger mindshare of WH than A.

-WH been treating me nice enough & spending time with me. Been updating me activities...

endofworldnomore

me - BW 41
WH 47
Married 16 years, together 19 years
3 kids (14,11, 2)
1st D-day jun05, 2nd D-day jan06
A todate 2 years
OW married to divorcee, separated due to A with another man before WH


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LA's response :

Too soon for remorse, EOW...

Has to really be in no contact...none at all, then withdrawal...and judging his remorse will eat your own lunch.

Three years is an LTA, I think. Long withdrawal period ahead...you're looking for a lot and still there are financial binds?

How have you been doing inside of you? Things you are choosing to do...elminating LBs, knowing your own ENs and how much you meet them; seeing relationship patterns, how you both dance, and changing your steps?

LA

--------------------
me FWW - 44
FWH - 45
3 S; 22, 20, 16
FWH - EA/PA 8 weeks
FWH moved back in 10/24/04 &
Committed to M 12/15/04
In Recovery and so grateful for our M

HI LA


Thanks for responding. You’ve answered my question. But must admit it's not really the answer I was looking for......

My initial response is : O still a long way more ahead for me???? But guess it's better to know what you dont want to know than not knowing & false hopes..........

How do I feel? Now, I feel resigned……. to fact that A has to happen at the most unfortunate time……. in midst of $ crisis…….. then again, whose A happens at the right time anyway?

I feel powerless seeing $ problems overshadow A, which to me & all BS, is the most devastating event in my life.

Now, I’m trying to adopt a Renter’s mentality. Not in Plan B. Not in Plan A either……… my EN in severe deficit…….. I’m too emotionally drained to continue giving the “grin-&-bear with it” fashion like I did in Plan A…….my Taker is however is still quite tame, I just drift along, not violently demanding yet……… a sense of nonchalance?………

But just last week, I was so tormented seeing WH tossing & turning in bed, unable to sleep, being tormented by $ problems. Sad to say, but I do have too much empathy for WH. I was crazy enough to even think for a moment that agreeing to share WH with OW will release WH of his agony. Am I ever capable of tough love?

I don’t go all out to please WH anymore, but I think I don’t commit major LBs also. No more sudden outbursts, no more FBI style interrogation…….. in fact, WH tells me things….. even about new products & biz ideas they are discussing*. We are just cordial.

WH spends non-work hours with me & family, though often distant in mind, deep in thoughts. Preoccupied with biz issues or missing OW? Who knows?

Dancing? What dancing? WH's mind is focussed on biz now. No romance, no dance, no joy........

*FYI after calling OW to announce breakoff, they are in contact again within a week, but WH swears it’s PURELY biz………. due to biz cashflow probs, WH needed to pick OW’s brains (& goodness knows what other part of the anatomy?)

I just exist, not truly living……. but am much better than pre-MB days….. almost got myself killed till I came to MB……… MB has empowered me….. given me solid actionable steps to draw WH back………MB has also enlightened me with all the reality checks & straight talk………from crying all day, I now no longer shed a tear……..

But I still am reading up MB stuff, in search of a solution……… one day.......

I was praying for repentance & remorse, looks like now I have to pray for total NC first, then surviving withdrawal, before even repentance. What about praying for $ problems? Chicken-&-egg question…… really don’t know what to pray for anymore.

Having come this far, surely I cant quit hoping?????

endofworldnomore
me BW 41
WH 47
Married 16 years, together 19 years
3 kids (14, 11, 2)
1st D-day jun05, 2nd D-day jan06
LTA ? 2 years (not 3, mistake)
OW married to divorcee but separated due to A with another man before WH

Hi EOW

Squid was not remorseful for a long time. It kicked in at about a ten months to a year of NC after a whole lot of investment from me. At that time it hit her like a landslide,paralysing her with shame and guilt. She dry heaved for a while when the reality of her actions hit home.

Like you I prayed for her to be remorseful ( ahe was a very haughty and entitled WS for a while) and I think it is healthy and proper that she be remoresful. but, I will say that the destruction of her self esteem and continuing guilt is something of a recovery inhibitor right now. She feels so unworthy she is loth to tell me what she needs or desires sometimes for example.

I continue my investment in her safety and have hopes that over time she may start to deal with the reality of her actions and her remorse.

*FYI after calling OW to announce breakoff, they are in contact again within a week, but WH swears it’s PURELY biz………. due to biz cashflow probs, WH needed to pick OW’s brains

This does not indicate well for your recovery. Contact for whatever purpose serves to reinforce entitlement and delay the onset of naturally just remorse in a WS. They can rarely become Fws while there is contact.

Virtually all WS want to maintain contact with OP after d-day. That is very very unhealthy however.

I dealt with that by agreeing personal inviolable bundaries with myself. These were ( and remain) :

* NC forever
* Transparency in activity
* Ongoing investment in my safety from hurt

I made it clear to Squid that I would not tolerate a marrige without these boundaries being respectd for very long, but that I would not force Squid to respect them. teh cage door is open, she can leave and avoid my boundaries any time she chooses, but if she chooses to rebuild our marriage she should try to respect my boundaries like I would respect hers.

Note - not a selfish demand,just a statement of fact and consequence.

But note EOW - this only works if you are prepared to divorce if yor boundaries are not respected. They are boundaries not wishes or hopes.

Squid stared respecting them very glumly to begin with. Now does so without much thought, as an instinct almost.

Hope this helps

All blessings

I concur with both Loving Anyway and Bob Pure

Expect nothing until withdrawal is over.

My wife was sorry after a few weeks, but in all honesty it was around 6 months after no contact was established before I really, really knew she "got it"

She is now also tormented with guilt and shame over her actions, what they nearly did to our family and what she nearly lost.

the affair is not over

sorry

if OW died tomorrow in a tragic chicken bone choking incident ... somehow, your H would find other non-affair-related financial brains to pick

she's not the only biz-wiz in Asia

but she's still got her claws in your H

you are not in recovery
you are in limbo

what's your plan?

Pep

and pep is right. can't believe i missed that!

EOW is afraid of Plan B, I think.

PS... your original Q

WH will not express remorse at this time ... because he is still in contact with OW... and the affair is on-going

this is premature, wishful-thinging ....

Pep

I know I have a marital prob on hand but this is just so funny.......... need some laughter to keep sane....

pep, u sure are up early........ very early

endofworldnomore

Maybe I dont know the answwer to this one.

But I thought I am ok with it....... I psyched myself up with all negative stuff about WH while in Plan A ...... I managed to kick WH out of the house, albiet for only 1 nite........ I did it with NO tears, NO screaming, NO shouting..... just matter-of-factly "I dont need you!"
I fell asleep shortly after WH was shoved out of the house, no sleepless in Asia.

And now, I thought I am gradually shifting into Renter's mentality.

I do know I am in limbo and I dont have a plan. That makes me feel restless.

So why not Plan B again? Whether I'm using WH's $ problems as an excuse or not, I feel lousy to do Plan B now...... WH may even need to borrow from my sister a sum of money for 2 months to tide over....... but mid-term biz looks less scary......though not entirely prosperous........

I feel I am too heartless to do Plan B now given the circumstances.

Though I dont have any plan now........... am aware one day, my Taker will not be so tame like now......... and who knows what will happen then........ I've been a highly impatient person till now


endofworldnomore

I actually like this approach.... even better than Plan B..... with due respect to the proven success of Plan B, I do feel I lose self-respect by letting WH out to have a ****** good time & telling WH he's welcome back anytime he has made his choice....... This is just a very personal feeling...........

But I am inclined to impose these boundaries on WH after the worst of WH's $ woes are over......... Am I chicken-hearted or what?

Is it like "If I catch you doing this, this & this,......... (violating my boundaries) I will divorce you!" ? Same as giving an ultimatum?

As to whether I am prepared for divorce.......... I cannot tolerate sharing on long term........ and have been enlightened enough now to realise the worst is not WH leaving, but false recoveries.........

Of course, I still love WH. If not, why would I feel so much empathy, so pained WH's tormented by his problems..... But my love for WH is going to slowly kill my very soul.......

endofworldnomore

Even before pep tells me in the face I am not in recovery, I am beginning to suspect so......

I know I am drifting along. I have been pondering why I am in limbo, but yet less agonised like before.

I guess it's cos some of my EN are being met for the time being. Like seeming transparency with updates on activities, verbal assurance of commitment, being physically with me.......... I feel somehow assured...... or am I just an easy prey to packs of lies? on way to another false recovery?

WH's actions have been nice enough for me to drift along in limbo nonchalantly .......... for now..........

My empathy is another hindrance ........... I realise I can be easily manipulated by WH, not sure if WH is already doing it........

endofworldnomore

go re-read planning for plan B

even if you prepare for divorce, some of the same activities will apply

your heart is not IN SYNC with your mind

and thus you feel lost

Pep

besides

DOING something

will wake you up and you will feel better

I have no copyright protection on this vivid imagery

(I thought it was funny too .... I completed my lifesupport classes required for licensure this past weekend ... it came to mind very easily)

feel free to use the choking chicken when you have your discussion with WH that business contact with OW is like taking a baseball bat and bludgeoning your tender heart

use graphic ways to display your emotional anguish

do not allow him to feel like you are "OK" when you are NOT OK....

do not avoid becoming/being real

Pep

Spot on...... my head says to be nonchalant, my heart feels just too much for WH..... gotta work on it.

Having re-read Preparing for Plan B, I now wonder if kicking WH out of house for that 1 nite, refusing to take his calls amount to Plan B...... No Letter, just verbal. Plan B ? I didnt even go there yet!

Making the most of my nonchalance while I still have it (severe moodswings still), I didnt hesitate to tell WH my suffering on occasions I wasnt updated promptly or clearly enough this last week. I used the jigsaw puzzle analogy a great deal....... it's graphic & I think WH is slowly getting it. WH now says he doesnt blame me for needing to know.....

Either I am a condemned sucker or what, but I must say WH does look very sincere & real to me whenever he reassures me his commitment......... but then someone said words are cheap....... cant agree more

You asked what's my plan. Since I am not as miserable in limbo now, I am planning on drifting along till $ matters improve or my Taker overpowers me.....

I like bob's boundary-setting strategy........ thinking about it....... but must realise that just like Plan B, it cant be cry-wolf anymore........ & getting the heart & mind in sync is so critical

BTW hope your ailment is ok

endofworldnomore

No, you did not do Plan B, EOW...you enforced a boundary and then you took it back.

Listen to Lemonman...doing a modified Plan B or only attempting a kinda Plan B is more destructive than constructive...I believe because you add to your own self-betrayal...undermining yourself twice.

I wanted to address what you said in your response to me...better to have a realistic expectation than false hopes...what got me through this period of contact, yet almost no contact...waiting on my WH's decision (which was my choice to wait)...was introspection. It was a relief from my obsessing on him. How much have you lived with false hopes...tricking yourself into believing, temporarily, stuff, to feel better?

What does money symbolize to you? I'm wondering about the A and financial concerns coinciding...and again, no time is wasted in examining what you believe...it would your judgment telling you that $$ crisis overshadows A...this isn't reality...

You make your choices...to drift is a choice...why not do some stuff to understand your Taker does not overpower you...you allow your Giver and Taker to be out of balance...based on your judgments and beliefs...

I believe fervently in meeting our own ENs to begin with...identifying what we crave most from others as a signal of what we are not giving ourselves...

I was an attention glutton...my thoughts and feelings were focused on others...so my self was lonely...craved attention...FROM ME...and I kept digging at it to come from others...vicious cycle.

Attention included admiration, appreciation, conversation, affection and acceptance...what do you think, EOW?

Same for openness and honesty (O&H was my #1)...to find out I wasn't being O&H...like Pep advises...you state your thoughts, feelings and beliefs..."Every contact with OW, no matter the reason, feels like acid being poured on my chest." Hey, you're feeling it...own it. Your choice to share it...

"I’m too emotionally drained to continue giving the “grin-&-bear with it” fashion like I did in Plan A…….my Taker is however is still quite tame, I just drift along, not violently demanding yet……… a sense of nonchalance?………"

Why did you drain your emotions in Plan A? Why did you believe it was a grin and bear with it? How is that authentic...being true to yourself, finding and owning your own stuff...knowing your power of choice?

A lure of being human is to live from our feelings...rather than the beliefs they come from inside us...which is like getting third-hand information and using it as truth...messy way to live.

Gets your head and heart out of sync...has resistance to living contrary to what you feel "I don't feel like it"...it is what WS do...live from feelings...temporarily...abandoned beliefs and giving permissions because of feelings...which are being falsely generated from fantasy...our brains don't know reality from fantasy...

I began to get in sync, shift my focus from WH, by stopping my DJs...your WH was tossing and turning...and you don't know why...what his thoughts were...you mindread and say finances; then you guess maybe OW...see how many emotions and thoughts you are wasting on what you can't possibly know? Why go there? Stay inside yourself...your WH is an adult...he is experiencing consequences from many choices and not making choices...respect him, EOW...

Why is his thoughts, feelings and beliefs your responsibility? Within your power? Wouldn't you believing you can cure him of what is his be really disrespectful...wouldn't it be saying he is incapable? When he is as capable as you are, equal?

Major LBs...read and work on DJs...because you're worth it--if you do them to others, you're also doing them to yourself...adding to the crap, you might say. Free yourself...what you give yourself you will crave less from others...freedom, power, love...your choice.

LA

Very good question and the answer is it depends.

Some may get there quickly others never.

Each individual is different when it comes to this.

Now IMHO you should have a certain understanding of your WS. If in the past they have made bad decesions and taken responsibility and shown remorse you have a chance. If on the other hand the WS has made bad decesions and not taken responsibility and not shown remorse it may never happen.

In other words past actions will help you predict the future in a sense.

Nobody is perfect in this world so you should have a point of reference on how your WS deals with the mistakes they have made.

If you have a WS that blames everyone else for their mistakes. Then takes a hands off approach and lets others put back the pieces. Then you shouldn't expect anything more when it comes to taking responsibility and showing remorse for their A.

Hi LA

Good to hear from you. You've raised many issues that needed more reflection........ not complaining ..... realise I am still in process of self discovery......... this realisation makes all I do or dont do feel more worthy...........

Yes, I realise I have chosen to drift along in limbo. Unless it's not healthy to do so, pls tell me, everyone........thank you

Tell you why my choice..... EN & LB seem agreeable with my expectations now..........may be a case of me having too little expectations now......... a way of adapting...... maybe expectations may change in future......... but for now, my expectations appear to have been met reasonably (not completely)

EN... WH is meeting more of my EN than before, not completely yet but I am happy with improvement......1)conversation, 2)honesty (perceived), 3)family commitment, 4)appreciation (of my pain when not updated on WH activities).......

LB..... I perceive fewer LB than before........ 1) outbursts & 2) demands from me very rare, 3)WH's dishonesty perceived by me as less serious (with constant updates)...........

Other LBs? ..........1) my judgement of WH's beliefs & values & behaviours are kept entirely private, I have not yet allowed it to appear in interactions with WH yet..... 2) with World Cup, I expect more independent behaviour .... but WH asks for my blessing beforehand whether it's World Cup or other love, golf........

WH & I have reached a stage where I will not hesitate to tell WH if he did something that pissed me...... usually this is unclear or non-prompt updates of WH's whereabouts.....and I have done so twice in the last 2 weeks but with calm & no outbursts......... I used the missing jigsaw analogy repeatedly on WH........Of course, I also tell WH when he does something that makes me happy......like a nice, unhurried dinnner last night when I felt plenty of undivided attention........

This is outcome of my self-discovery ......... I feel liberated.......... have figured out why Taker is tame & Giver is not over-board....... this is the current state of my inner self & thots....... no right or wrong about it........

But the choice to drift along in limbo......... everyone, pls comment on this choice ........especially if your wisdom & experience shouts danger here....... otherwise, I will remain in this state........ cos I am not terribly miserable........

All your advice has made a significant difference....... I was drifting previously aimlessly........... now I do so with a mission in the sideline......... to continue self-discovery............ to work towards the day when "heart & mind in sync".............

2nd mission is also to re-focus on preparing for Plan B & read up & think more about setting boundaries & enforcing them.......... if anyone has useful threads relating to this, pls share......... OR if it's too premature for me to research on this yet, pls SHOUT...........

As for $, it's never a priority for me........ $ matters appearing to overshadow A........ does not refer to my feelings.......... but to my judgement of WH's state of mind....... but I keep this judgement private to myself & you folks..........

Thanks to all you folks, I once again feel in control...... cos I know what stage I am in........ what my mission is...... what to do to work towards the mission..........
like pep says.......... I've got something to do (I add, besides praying......)

I also feel more in control cos I realise I must accept what I cant change.... which is WH, his actions, state of mind, thots, worries, values, etc........ I will accept it
and focus only on actionable tasks I can do to work on myself........

Not intending this to be a wet blanket but $ anxieties are real...... but since I also cant control that....... I just have to learn to surrender it to Higher Authority....... trusting that our M, still struggling to survive A will not be die at the hands of $, or lack of it........

Truly endofworldnomore

Hey all again,

yes, WH & I seem to share a more REAL relationship now........ I can tell WH what bothers me & what makes me happy....... WH tells me what bothers him....... top-on-the-list, biz worries, biz future plans (shortterm, midterm, longterm),...... pep, both of us seem to be getting more REAL (then again, pep may correct me, saying I'm, not WH? Ha :-D

As for lower expectations on my part, I dont feel lousy that I am lowering my expectations...... I may not even have chosen to lower them........ they just evolve gradually in my process of self-discovery.....

I dont feel short-changed in anyway with some EN met, some remaining unmet yet, or just slightly scratched........ Rome is not built in a day.......... this is a 2yr-old A.....LA said I was expecting too much.... I now realise ....

Reality checks work for me....... I assure all who have invested time & effort in me that I am fairly teachable....... a reasonably good student..... thanks for believing in me & helping me try my ALL for my M & my 3 lovely kids (14, 11 & 2)

So much for humility but a deserving pat on my own shoulders goes a long way to affirm my never-ending hard work........

Trusting that God will continue His work in my family........ in His time.....

Trulyendofworldnomore

I feel joy, despite $ toils......