UVA:

I would go so far as even removing the word "unprotected" before sex. Condoms can still fail to protect against warts and herpes. Too many variables here to chance. But that is just me.

Lem

Two points.

Yes you are right that there is not a thing as 100% safe sex, but it is utter nonsense to suggest that protected sex, i.e., using condom, does not greatly reduce the risk of one person transmitting STD to another. On your argument, I guess we should stop encouraging people to use condom in an effort to reduce HIV transmission. This is patently absurd. Of course, we are not looking for a 1-1 mathematical relation between safe sex practices and STD transmissions. It does not follow, however, that one should not try to reduce the risks. This line of reasoning makes no sense to me, as safe sex practices greatly reduce the risks of transmitting STDs.

Second even though there may be no such thing as safe sex, as Lem said, 6 months is a small time to wait in the long scheme of things before risking one’s life, and a fortiori the well being of one’s children, if any, just to meet a WS’s EN. The potential costs are just not worth the benefits in this case.

My point is..

That if you're going to call something irresponsible..then sidestep when faced with the facts regarding what protecting yourself REALLY means then what is the point.

Condoms can provide some level of barrier between yourself and infections such as HIV/AIDS..they offer zero protection for warts, herpes, etc..in affected areas that continue to be exposed. Assuming that the device worked correctly. Assuming that your only exposure risk is genital to genital [which is also ridiculous].

If a person is willing to embrace a *reduced* risk that is their choice.

If a person is not willing to accept ANY risk..that is their choice.

If a person denies the risk in favor of meeting the SF EN..that is their choice and there are consequences to ALL of these choices.



I agree completely that 6 mo is a small time to wait in the scope of the expected lifetime..and with regard to the weight of the consequences..I also know that H felt horribly rejected during this time and we did miss opportunities that others have taken.

I'd take it a step beyond your logic even though..and go so far as to suggest that STDs ..while a major issue..are not the only issue.

I firmly believe that a BS is far too emotionally vulnerable in the immediate aftermath to suggest that they have sex with their spouse. That level of intimacy is not a place I personally am willing to go with someone I don't trust and am not firmly committed to and I would never advise anyone to do it.

In my opinion..detachment is crucial when making decisions about the future. The WS has landed a solid blow by negating their part of the vows.

The BS has a choice to make in deiciding whether it is WISE to recover the marriage.

Sex is a binding act..bound is not a good place for a BS to be.

I totally agree with the assessment of the *physical* risks of having SF (unprotected or not) with a WS.

I also want to point out the *emotional* risks of doing so as well.

I can't think of much that's more degrading than having SF with a spouse who just left somebody else's bed, or is getting up from the bed you just shared fully intending to go share someone else's.

Expecting someone to accept that sort of arrangement can cause emotional damage that is very, very deep and longlasting.

JHMO
Mulan

Completely agree Mulan.

And another thing.

I like that you used the word degrading.

I was thinking more in regard to a recovery scenario [not really appropriate since the Q was about plan a]..in plan A the A is ongoing.

Not only do I agree with everything you said re the emotional impact..I'd even say that allowing yourself to be degraded has some real potential for lasting consequences.

I don't agree that it's degrading if it's something that you CHOOSE to do on PURPOSE for a REASON.

I was degraded when I was having SF with my WH for YEARS without knowing that he was also having sex with someone else.

I was in charge of what happened during Plan A. It was my Plan. In many instances, I seduced him. Plus, as I said before, SF has NEVER been JUST SEX for us. It is a highly emotional experience and even during the A it was LOVING.

I understand what you are saying folks.

I don't believe that you can really understand me or those that may think like me.

I didn't want to live a life without my H..maybe it's codependent or whatever. I would have rather taken the chance of contracting STDS than to chance losing him. That's exactly the way that I felt at that point. Of course, I've never been with anyone else and have been with him since age 18..maybe that makes a difference. I love SF and couldn't even imagine the thought of ever being with someone else. YUCK!!!

I don't feel like I'm emotionally damaged by having the SF with him. Those were great, passionate times..some of the best ever. I WAS damaged by the affair and would have been devastated by a divorce. Now I am as happy as I can be..have never been happier..would have done it again if I had to do it all over again.

This is me. I am not advocating this for anyone else.

Mimi,

It all comes down to choice once again.

If you are ABLE to sustain your position and not be affected and are aware and conscious of the risks you take..who can fault you?

I would feel degraded..you used it as a very effective tool.

Perhaps I am more emotionally vulnerable in that area than you are. I know that if I had sex with someone..I would have a hard time walking away. You never intended to walk away..it surely changed your perspective.

So many variables.

Perfectly reasonable Mimi. I know you and I have butted heads on this many times in the past, but the issue at hand has absolutely NOTHING to do with YOUR choices that you made with your WH. That should be perfectly fine with anyone here. The issue is the continued advice (and I am NOT singling you out) to meet these SF needs of a WS (and at the same time NOT greatly acknowledging the very real risk of STD's.....condoms or not).

Again, this is NOT about YOUR choice to do this.

I think it is VERY imprortant for people to know that you were perfectly willing and able to get a STD or HIV if it meant getting your WH back....you were NOT willing to accept any alternative. People NEED to know that about you...just as they need to know that I did NOT save my marriage with my WW....they need to know where one is "coming from" when they are given advice or hear opinions regarding "what to do". That is only fair.

Lem

Hallelujah, Lemon!! You've got it!!

I appreciate, respect and understand your response, too, Noodle...

A MEETING OF THE MINDS!!!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Here's the deal. I avoided SF for 3 months with WW because I wanted her to get tested for STD's. Unfortunately in the heat of passion of a very bad argument, we had SF. I now have HPV. The good news is that I did not get it from this incident. She had apparently infected me months before when the PA was going on and I didn't know about it. So I was already infected.

As far as SF goes for Plan A. If it is comfortable for you and you want to do it (without personal health risk), go ahead. If you do not want to do it, don't feel obligated. Don't withhold it to try to be manipulative. WS did not seek an affair because they have a desperate need for sex. They won't run off to OP to scratch an itch. My desire for SF with WW comes and goes. It really is part of the rollercoaster. Just remember that Plan A is not a battle strategy to manipulate the WS into certain behaviours. Plan A is about you being the best you that you can, identifying the WS's EN's and trying to meet those and letting WS decide what they want to do with their life. Don't use SF (or lack of it) as a weapon.

Pijoitos:

Please expand on the "without personal health risk" part of your advice. I don't want to comment untill I understand what you meant by that statement. Appreciate the clarification.

Lem

There is no form of full proof protection to keep you from contracting several STDs, some life altering and some deadly.

Its not worth the risk.

And, as Sour Dude wrote, when you sleep with a WS you are sleeping with their OP and ALLLLLLL the people (probably just as promiscuous) that OP has slept with.

What I mean is if my WW had had a full STD screen the required number of months after last SF with OM (I would feel most comfortable with 6 months), then I would feel "safe" (assuming all had been negative) and then only with a condom until well into recovery because she might relapse and run to OM.

If I feel that, once WW has an affair, it is never ever "safe" to have SF again, I see no point in trying to recover the marriage. If it can never be safe again, divorce is the only option. I agree that nothing is worth risking your life over. Unfortunately most BS's are not given the choice. Before Dday, we are exposed without our knowledge. After Dday and after the PA is over and after STD screening turning up negative, are you saying that SF is never an option again? WW can always have another affair right? She had one, why not another?

If SF will never be safe again with WS, why do you post on MB? You still have not answered the question I asked you BTW. I had expected that eventually you would. Enquiring minds want to know... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Couple thoughts. I don't know where you got the idea that anyone was saying that SF will never be safe again with a WS. Noone has said that. Even if a WS had contracted a STD (as yours did) and the BS contracts it, a sexual relationship could conceivably be eventually resumed given the realities of this. The key that I care about is making sure that the BS HAS EVERY CHANCE TO MAKE THIS INFORMED DECISION.

What was the question you asked me that you want an answer about? I am happy to oblige, but I just must have missed it.

For the record, I post here because I believe that my perspecttive (while not necessarily always in line with the "site") can be of value to some people as they try to recover themselves after an affair.

Lem

Lem

Nope, not saying that at all.....there are always options.....but they should be CHOICES...NOT mandates.

Yeah, a WS could always have another affair and give you an STD....could happen....someone also could get hit by a bus crossing the street. You do what you can to avoid those things, and then understand that it could happen. That's life. I don't live my life in fear of those things. I am in a SF relationship now, and have done what I could realitistically could do to make healthy decisions with this. My partner could cheat on me and perhaps give me a STD...but I don't worry about that here. You do the most you can do to protect yourself, make informed decisions,,,and then go live life.

Lem

Go back and read your last post to the thread you addressed to me. You said you would think about it and post back. In a nutshell, where do you define the line between doormat, throw rug and my way or the hiway and how to reconcile that with Plan A according to MB principles. Again, I am not criticizing you. I value your opinion and was hoping to hear your answer. Because right now I am a throw rug.

Noodle:

I really appreciate your openness to considering my perspective. So, I would like to discuss a few of your points.

Specifically in regards to emotional intimacy you say:



Your point of view is so different than mine here. Actually, looking back, having sex with my H helped me because that was the one way that he maintained some sort of emotional connection with me. The intimacy that he shared with me during those times gave me hope that our marriage could be reconciled.

When you mention DETACHMENT, are you recommending this during PLAN A? Do you agree with PLAN A? I can't see how being DETACHED could be possible during PLAN A. If I had been detached at that time I would not have been able to do it. I do agree with the need for DETACHMENT during PLAN B.

I'm thankful that SEX was not a binding act between my H and the OW.

You are correct, though. It was a BINDING ACT between him and I during PLAN A. That was my whole point to BIND him to me again.

But what about a WW who doesn't want SF?

And in response to this post...

I know I'm speaking about me here but maybe I'm also speaking for folks that feel the same way that I do that are not posting here...so that's why I'm keeping this going for awhile.

I understand what you are saying about me using sex as an EFFECTIVE TOOL ...but I want to make it VERY CLEAR..that I very much enjoyed and treasured those times. I did not in any way feel degraded. I felt degraded before D-Day when he was having the A and was having minimal sex with me..I did not know why and the lack of it was affecting me physically..really..so, on occasion, I belittled myself and begged him..that's when I felt degraded...

During my PLAN A, he wanted and desired me..no doubt about it...It was his response to the other EMOTIONAL NEEDS that I had begun to meet during PLAN A....SEX is not just a PHYSICAL ACT. It can be a SACRED MEANS OF BONDING between MARITAL partners.

You say: "If I had sex with SOMEONE, I would have a hard time walking away". I see what you are saying here. But for me, my H was not just SOMEONE. I had to do all that was possible to save him from the throes of EVIL and I knew he remained HIGHLY CONNECTED to me on a sexual level for whatever reasons. He never approached me as if I was just a "piece of meat"..maybe that would have been the dealbreaker..there remained lots of AFFECTION and PASSION...he even would occasionally weep...those were times that made me aware that he was still IN THERE somewhere..

As you say, SO MANY VARIABLES...