Until a couple of days ago, I had not posted for months, so most of you don't know my story.

A very quick summary to give important details for my question...

W had an A last year in April-July. Found out June 30. NC started July 17. The regular roller coaster since. My W also had an EA 5 years prior... and I found out after last year A, that she had a one-night stand about 15 years prior while we were engaged. She never told me about it until last year... I think she only told me then because she had told OM and was afraid I would find out.

I had heard about the night of the ONS after the EA... she told me then when I asked if there had been anyone else, that a man had come on to her at his place, but she was scared and left. Last year I found out they did have sex.

Here is the question... Is it likely or possible that the first A was actually rape? The OM was a man from her work who was atleast twice her age... she was only 19 at the time. He was the personality type of men... confident, outgoing, that she is attracted to (with the exception of myself). My W had only slept with me prior (I know... don't tell our parents) and I thought was fairly innocent and in love with me (she had pursued me for 4 years off and on before we started dating) The story was that she was going over for a staff party... I think a Christmas party... it was a small office of about 6-8 people. I vaguely remember the night, and I know I was told that no-one else showed up but her. I think I was told this when she said he had come on to her.

I have no idea if this was coincidence, whether he planned it... he has a bit of a reputation... or whether she knew she would be alone with him and lied to me.

I know it would make things easier for me (not for her), if actually she had been raped... then I have one less A to recover from... but a whole different, possibly bigger problem for her to get through. When I asked her, she said she consented. I didn't press the issue. But I think that often when a rape victim knows the rapist, they will convince themselves that they were to blame and let it happen. Does anyone have any knowledge on this subject?

I would like to find out more about this. I realize that if it was consentual, that it doesn't change anything with our situation. However, if there was rape involved... it could answer a lot of questions in regards to her behavior and her self-esteem issues. This is compounded by the fact that her father was verbally abusive, her biological father (who she just found out about only a few years ago) won't have anything to do with her or her sister (she's a twin), her Mom had more than one A and left her father for OM... who became my W's step-father. He also has a possible history of abuse of boys in his past... what a mess. Add to this a verbally abusive boss last year, and in some respects I think I would be doing anything to escape who I was and my life as well... which she tried to do through her A. The MC said she had died inside.

I know this sounds like a very complicated issue. I don't think I should just ask her about the ONS... if it was rape... and if she has convinced herself that she had agreed, I wouldn't get any answers anyway. But possibly a professional. Is this something I should even be checking on or is it just compounding my current problems.

Any thoughts or ideas?

Shaden

Is she in IC?

Date Rape is a tricky issue...lines often blurred...its not like being attacked by a stranger in a park. There is usually an element of attraction. Many date rape victims do accept responsibility...I shouldn't have gone there alone...I did let him touch me...I shouldn't have worn that out fit...I didn't say no. Can lead to a lot of messy..inappropriat relationships.

Then you met a good guy and think ...I don't deserve him.

I really hope she is in C.

As a former cop.. I would say let this angle drop unless she brings it to you. Your suggesting this can give her an out for her actions. Only she knows that if it was consentual. If she told you it was consentual... most likely it was done without force.
So, a short answer to your question... yes, i think you will compound the current issue.

ChaCha...not in IC right now. That was one of the issues I brought up when I almost left last week... that she wasn't doing enough to move forward. I'm not leaving... we're doing ok.

She has been to two IC's who she felt did not help her. I was with one... but neither of us have gone for a few months.

I've decided to find a new one and start again, atleast go by myself and maybe she will agree to go later.

I do think she needs one... she has so many unresolved issues from her past... I'm just not ready to make this a boundary for leaving. I think she has to come to this decision on her own. Eventually, maybe it is a dealbreaker... we didn't get help 5 years ago after her EA and see what happened.

mkeverydaycnt... thanks for the advice. Not the answer I was looking for, but I think the right one. A lot of people know about the A last year, but I haven't told anyone about the ONS... unless the OM has told people, it's a secret. I will discuss with my IC when I get one...maybe he/she will have a different perspective. Until then, I'll probably leave it alone.

Shaden

Was it a rape? Apart from the two of them only God Knows.

But, generally speaking, there are a continuous spectrum between rape and full and eager consent. There are a lot of scenarios where one strong and determined will overcomes a weaker and less determined will.


Given the age difference and the fact that she was engaged to you I find it unlikely that she planed or wanted this before she arrived there. She expected this to be a party. I suppose he played his cards well by a combination of seduction and dominance: She was flattered by his interest, and his dominance made her feel "not responsible for this" -- like floating with the current of the river rather then swimming. But she COULD forcefully have said NO, and left. He would have mocked her and made her feel foolish and prudish. He would give her the cold shoulder at the job. But he would probably not have resorted to violence to stop her from leaving.


If the scenario was something like this I would say that he did not rape her. He could not be found guilty in any court. But I would use names you will not find in the dictionary to describe that kind of a guy.
She is also to blame. She did not protect her virtue with a very strong determination. she stayed and participated.

shadden...

let that go..

it is like rearranging the deck chairs as the titanic goes down.....

Your wife is the only one who knows if she was raped or not...if she is not and has not claimed thusly....then what is the point....

Infact..I am wondering if this one night stand even happened while married..
or pre-marriage...

and I am wondering why you would want to waste energy on something so many years ago...when you have enough in front of you presently and no need to make the waters even more murky...

what is your goal with that...

what is the bigger picture of your marriage...for if you believe she was raped...then it is not your job to discuss..but your job to create show and live a life where it is safe for her to share everything....

ARK

There is a very fine line between rape and being pressured into sleeping with someone.

It is possible that while may not have been raped she may have been pressured into it.

Women do say yes to men that they would really rather not sleep with if enough pressure is brought to bear. Young women are especially prone to giving in to pressure.

This may have caused your W an enormous amount of guilt over the years and added with all of her other issues has lead her to make some bad choices.

If what you have posted about her family situation is correct it would seem that your W would have been likely to succumb to pressure.

Techincally it may not have been rape...but she may not have wanted to have sex with that man either.

BTW there are various methods of pressuring a person. Was your W drinking that night?

Shadden... let it go until your W tells you there was an issue.
There is a huge difference between rape and a persistent man. Huge. Anyone telling you otherwise has no concept of the law or waht rape really is.
Just focus on the issue at hand and let this drop.

Hi Daisy,

I don't believe alchohol was involved... we both were raised in a Church that avoids alchohol... neither of us touched it (to my knowledge) until we were around 30...(a pretty boring teenage life!!!)

for everyone... just to be clear on my intentions...

Although it would package my problems and recovery slightly differently if it were indeed a rape rather than another A, that is not what I'm after.

My concern is what other hidden emotional trauma is locked up inside my W if this were a rape. She had said she had basically forgotten about it and hadn't told me because she was afraid I wouldn't marry her. If it were rape and she has hidden all the feelings that go with that act deep inside, then she desperately needs further help for herself and I believe this could be one thing if left without help that will always block us from her getting to full trust, intimacy, and feeling safe.

It is a concern for her and how this possible situation will affect our growth.

Shaden

I think you are right to be concerned about this, if she were in fact pressured into it that would also have caused emotional trauma.

I highly doubt she forgot about it. I think it`s more likley that she never dealt with it and pushed all thought of it out of her head because it was too painful...too shameful.

From what you post it sounds more like she was pressured into it more that anything else. You need to discuss this with her. If she was pressured into it she may feel even more guilt and shame than had she been raped.

Ways a person can be pressured into sex....

They can be guilted into it if alot on money was spent on a evening out.

They can be talked into it especially if they are dealing with a person who is older and very manipulative.

They can give in because they just want to get it over with so they can go home.

They can be sweet talked into believing that person REALLY likes them so they will have sex to hold on to that regard.

And of course they can be cowed by the person who wants to have sex...there may be an element of fear involved.

If you find out that although she may not have been raped she WAS pressured into it how will YOU feel about it?

Shaden

it is my opinion that NOW is the time to deal with issue at hand..

the current affairs....

if you create this whole other area of huge emotional trauma and stress...forced by YOUR hand...then the resolution of the affair at hand will be lost......

your wife is a serial cheater PERIOD>..

regardless of past occurances...this is who she is TODAY...and it is my opinion that TODAYS issues need addressed...

here's one scenario...

she wasn't raped...
but you push the issue that happened years ago...
and there's her out...

she is a victim
she can't help her affairs.
she is not responsible and NOT in control....

If I was a WS and my BS offerred me that option...I'd take it in a second..without ever REALLY admitting onus either way....

deal with her current belief that marriage vows mean NOTHING to her

deal with her current belief that honor and honesty dont' mean anything...

deal with what you have today.......

even if she was coherced..that does not equal who she is today...

a nineteen year old GIRLS use and approach to sexuality is way different that a thirty something WOMAN...

you have enough on your plate to deal with
you have enough fodder to work through..

why do you want to bring this up ...which she has yet to claim to be the truth...and start down this path...

how will it HELP the present goal....

people have survived horrific things in their lives and still inspite of it gone on to be honorable good people...

bad experiences do not HAVE to be defining moments for ALL future behavior...

THANK GOD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I guess I do not understand why you would push this issue now..
your wife is obviously not emotionally connected right now...why push this issue.....now..why not wait till you two are a loving supportive ground of marriage...

why shove her now when you and she aren't at your best at communication and support..

why


ARK

Shaden, I doubt it was rape. Folks who know me would say I'm a huge woman's rights activist, and have marched against date rape and other forms of sexual coersion.

My reason are these: With the huge age difference, and the OM's strong personality, she was likely infatuated with him in the first place. She never would have initiated an affair, but when presented with it, was likely not averse to the idea.

I speak from experience, as I made the same bad choice when I was dating my now-husband. The OM was much older, very powerful, and came onto me in a dark building all alone, as he engineered the situation. I was caught off guard, yes. Was I raped? No. I was guilty of being young and stupid and my ignorance of a potentially hazardous situation led me to make a mistake I would later regret.

Now, I have been the victim of attempted rape, while in college, and you can bet I dam n well know the difference.

What I would say is this--you weren't married, and she was caught off guard. Yes, it was a regrettable, unfortuante event, but don't give it more value by calling it rape. These "grey-area" allegations only serve to undermine the real rapes that are occuring.

When men in the general population hear about the so-called "buyer's remorse" rape allegations, they are less supportive of women with genuine forced, non-consensual sex.

If I were you, I'd focus on any early-childhood traumas or later-adult issues your wife is facing, and let this one go. IMVHO.

This is correct.

I know about being pressured into sex because that did happen to me when I was 19 too.

I felt guilty, dirty and ashamed. It left scars. But I never used that as an excuse to have A`s in my M.

Quite the opposite. What I learned from that is that one stupid choice is that sex for the wrong reasons can have a longterm devastating effect on your psyche. I didn`t want anymore of the same. But that`s just me...how I decided to view the situation.

I do think this issue has likely played a role in your W`s bad decisions throughout the years. She knows nothing about boundaries. She doesn`t know how to set them for herself or how to respect those of other people. If she was pressured into sex all those years ago this has only reinforced this mindset.

I do think that your W needs to gain some insight into her actions so she can change her methods of getting along in this world and can begin to forgive herself. IMHO as long as she feels badly about herself she is going to behave badly.

Thanks for the feedback, Daisy. I believe you are right about the pressure... this was not her personality or nature. She didn't date a lot of guys, was a fairly serious and "mature" teenager...

Ark, I agree that it is not my place to push this. I also think that if I do, she will think I am just looking for "outs" as well... because if she was raped, it makes it so much easier for me to accept (a little sarcasm)... because she didn't choose to give herself.

I guess I'm just wondering if this is a possibility and if there is anything I should be doing. It is only in the back of my mind and my focus is getting past the present situation... but her past is tied into the present... the fact that she feels "dead inside". Not a reason for an A...no reason is. But I need to find as many pieces of the puzzle that I can. I am addressing the pieces of myself that may have put the marriage in a vulnerable situation... but that may not be enough. I know I can't change her... but I also can't stand back and let these demons from her past linger.

I guess they will be addressed when the time is right. I don't intend to push it or bring it up to her... just looking for insight and advice.

Thanks,

Shaden

Shaden I believe that no one is born good or bad. I think we are all a product of our past experiences.

I had to delve into the past to try and figure out why my H used drugs and had his A`s. I had to try and make some sense of it.

I felt that was much more helpful for me than to just cast him aside as a bad person which was my initial impulse.

But although it was helpful to examine the past I never allowed H or myself to use that as an excuse. I still held him acountable for his actions. I worked on my issues and set some firm boundaries. H worked on his problems. And we came together to work on the M. So here we are almost 6 years past d-day, fully recovered and H has been clean for almost 5 years now.

This is along the same lines as what I posted to you on Bob`s thread. You gather all the facts and then you write a version of events in your mind that will allow you both to move forward together. Ark is correct that you do not want to get stuck in the past however the past will play a part in how you context the A`s.

I had to run out and didn't finish my last post...

I look at my W's A as a result of problems... it is a problem within itself that needs to be addressed... but I think there are so many underlying issues that resulted in her A.

How she feels about men because of her "fathers", my conflict avoidance, her Mom's affairs and divorce, stress from her job, etc., etc.. This possible rape could just be one more factor involved.

I agree the current A is the focus, but it is like healing a patient with pneumonia, but the underlying problem is that the patient has no immune system due to AIDS, and the pneumonia or other illnesses will just return.

Another example... If you were to wake up from surgery following being shot to find that the Doctor did an excellent job repairing the broken arteries and entrance wound. The stitches are taken out and the skin heals with just a small scar. Then later, you find out the Doctor left the bullet inside of you and they have to open you up again to dig deeper for the bullet. I'm sure most people would rather the Doctor had dug deeper while the wound was fresh and already opened instead of re-opening later.

Again... I agree that I can't fix this one... but if it is a possibility, then something needs to be done. I guess this is where faith comes into play.

Shaden

Daisy, you are correct that I don't want to be stuck in the past. In fact, until recently, I always discredited psychology babble that delved into a person's childhood. I figured you are in control of your present and looking at the past is just an excuse. But, the more I read, I realize it all plays a role in how we think and behave.

I don't believe I am looking for reasons to excuse her behavior... and I still believe that she is accountable for her decisions regardless of the past. Many great, successful people had terrible childhoods... including my W's hero, Oprah. But if it is something that is going to hinder a full recovery to have the best marriage possible, then it is something worth looking into. If this skeleton means we only recover part way... maybe still good enough for a decent marriage, but it could have been better, than I want the better.

The only way, I believe, that all these other issues help me in contextualizing the A is reminding me that my W is a good, caring, lovable person who just made a mistake. All these issues weakened her to a point where she was vulnerable. She still made the choice, but it helps me to understand how she came to a place in her life to have made that choice.

I do agree, though, that it is something that I cannot do anything about right now.

Shaden

No you can`t do anything about it but understanding what she has gone through will help to lessen your feelings of hurt. This situation was in the making long before you appeared on the scene.

I think knowing what the issues are is a form of protection for you. The more you become informed the less likely you are to accept excuses and half hearted efforts. You are beginning to understand what your W will need to do to get herself back on you can help steer her in the right direction.

You cannot help her yourself but you can help her to want to help herself.