CN or Low,

I saw on another thread that you felt like your S treated you like a child or tried to "micro-manage" you.

Could you say more about this

I know in my M, prior to D-day, I probably "micro-managed" my FWW.

Keep in mind some of this progressed over the years, but this is the general idea.

I would ask MT to do something or MT would volunteer to handle something for us or me. If she did not do it by what I thought was the appropriate time, I would lecture her. (I'm using the work lecture, but it ranged from let's say coaching to lecturing, depending on my mood, the actual item, etc., but either way I'm sure it sounded like a lecture).

If she did do it in what I thought was a reasonable time, some times (as I recollect, a small percentage), I was fine with what she did and occassionally thanked her for it, but most times, I always found something wrong with how she handled it and again would provide a lecture.

Over time, I would ask for about the same amount of things, but MT would also still volunteer to do a lot of things. Eventually, it became like MT was doing all of the little things. I mean I had my core responsibilites like pay the bills, etc., but virtually all the rest fell on MT, and she said she didn't mind doing it. MT also worked full time during all of this.

As she took on more stuff and I (for whatever reason) got more picky about them, less things got done "on time" and/or "done right". Eventually, MT started lying about some of them, just to avoid getting the lectures. Well, this just kept spiraling away like this. Finally, it got to where MT and I never talked about anything but a status update on the to-do list and every other comment I made was a lecture about it not getting done or getting done right.

Its at this point, I felt like I had a parent/child relationship with MT. I don't know if MT ever felt that way, but I do know we both hated it and were miserable.

Now, we did try to intervene several times over the years on this process. We talked about MT volunteering for less and me volunteering for more, we talked about maybe being clearer on deadlines, which item is priority, what were the things to be careful about with different items. Things would change a little bit, but in a very short time, we were right back to the same problem.

I've learned a lot since D-Day and I know there are many problems with how I handled things and I'm working on them.

The fact of the matter is MT and I have different operational styles when it comes to getting things done.

If you feel like you were micro managed, which I think is what MT felt, how would you like your spouse to relate to you. I mean sometimes things need to be done, done a certain way, and done by a certain time and these things affect both parties. Do you suggest your spouse just does it and leave you out? If you agree to do it, do you want your spouse to just shut up and let you handle how you think is best? What if you don't get it done, do you want your spouse to just ignore that. Do you want your spouse to talk to you about it? Do you want them to just assume if you didn't get it done, they should now do it themselves and not say anything. What if you have a history of not getting things done, should your S just assume this time will be different. Same questions if you do it wrong.

I'm really not trying to justify any of my past actions, I'm just trying to figure out a way to break this cycle

First of all, I'd say you need to understand why your need to have things done a certain way is more important to you than your relationship with that person.

Your spouse does not exist to be your errand person. They are not your employee. If they are doing something you've asked them to do, they are doing you a favor...don't be so picky about how it gets done. You gotta asked yourself "What's the worst that could happen if it doesn't? Is it worth damaging my relationship for?"

Too many people create conflict over meaningless stuff...mowing the lawn, washing clothes, loading the dishwasher. If the task is SO critical that you can't afford an error...and I've seen very, very few of these...then do it yourself. The key is learning to accept what your spouse is capable of and capitalizing on their strengths.

I'll be the first to admit that I was not terribly organized when we were married. I didn't keep lists and I didn't keep a dayrunner. Details did not concern me...results did.

For example, if I do a load of laundry different from how she would, but the results are the same, why should she care? If the results varied then I was open to her showing me. But she took the opportunity to point out my weeakness rather than build me up. I basically said "Screw you - do it yourself from now on"

In my next relationship I will appreciate every effort she makes to help me...even if it doesn't go exactly my way. I'll do this because her message is "I love you and I'll show that by serving you." The LOVE is the important thing...not whether the socks are folded right.

By the same token, if I choose to support her, I expect her to see the love I'm offering...the act itself is less important.

I want my future partner to respect that I have my own thoughts and ways of approaching things that may be different from hers. I will look to see if she can appreciate what I offer...rather than ridicule me for what I don't.

In time I did learn to be a bit more organized. But still...it was MY LIFE and I didn't need her telling how to run it.

Some people just lack the rigid organizational effectiveness of others. You're not going to change them. They may choose to change, but it won't be because you are disappointed with them.

Not to mention, when you treat your spouse like this, it communicates that you believe they are stupid and you have no faith in them. You don't respect them. You don't appreciate what they bring to the relationship.

Here are some things that I think really grated on my nerves:

1) She always commented on my clothes...began laying them out for me.

2) When she'd ask me to do something, she would begin speaking s-lo-w-ly and using kindergarten english the way you would instruct a kid. She wouldn't trust me to just "get it done". In my job, I am the go-to guy...she refused to acknowledge that I could be her go-to guy.

3) The final straw...she spoke to me in "baby talk" the last time we had SF before the affair. It made it very clear how she saw me.

My advice to you:

Put the relationship first. Play to her strengths. Be appreciative, not critical. Accept the price - a little chaos.

Here's a scenario that suspect would drive you nuts:

You've prepared the taxes for mailing. You ask her to mail them by April 15, but you discover on April 16 that she hasn't. What do you do?

Wrong way - "Hon, don't you know we could get in trouble for late taxes? I need you to be more on top of this."

Right way - "Oh hon, we need to get these in the mail right away. Will you go with me to the post office? Then we can get coffee afterwards."

Here's the difference. It is NOT your job to educate your spouse with obvious truth without their consent. It is not your job to punish them or subject them to consequences for their irresponsibility (to teach them a lesson).

IT IS you job to be their safety net. In the case above, I think a good spouse would find a way for his sig other to save face. To extend them grace.

This is not to say you never express disappointment or that you are letdown...it IS to say that you should be willing to extend you spouse a lot of grace.

Here's an example where my wife DID get it right...

Years ago, we had a car problem. She thought we should take it to the shop because the repair would be complicated. I felt like I could do it. Once I got into it, I realized I was over my head and so did she. I cost us extra money to undo the damage I caused. I was embarrassed and frustrated.

Just when I expected an "I told you so", she said this: "Honey, maybe this one time didn't go right, but I love how over the years you have saved us thousands in other expenses. Besides, you look sexy in a greasy t-shirt..."

In later years, she would just take the car to the shop without asking. I guess she got tired of the greasy t-shirt.

Low

Low,

Thanks for your response.

I understand what your saying and agree. I have learned to let go of the things that aren't really that big a deal.

For the record, I've never thought of myself as being overly obsessive about the right way to do things, etc. I generally feel, I have a pretty normal, logical, organized approach. But of course I think that way. (I mean who ever thinks they aren't normal) I would think MT thinks, I'm borderline OCD. In reality, I'm probably somewhere in the middle.

I have no concern over how my socks are folded, how the laundry is done, etc. My particular illness, is more of the prepare for the worst. So for example, say if the phone company screws up our bill, MT might say I'll take care of it, she'll call them and straighten it out. When she tells me about it, I would something like, did you get it in writing or did you get the name of the person, in case something screws up. She'll say no, I'm sure it will be fine and I'll proceed to educate her, etc. Heaven forbid, if next month the bill comes and its still screwed up. I don't think I actually say "I told you so", but I'm sure I convey that. Even worse would be if MT says she forgot to take care of it. Then I would explain to her how importantant it was, blah, blah.

Okay, I don't need a lecture on that. I realize I have some issues there that I need to resolve.

I realize that I should have viewed all these things MT was doing for me or us as a sign of love. And you have pointed out one of my biggest flaws. I never thought MT was stupid or anything. Many of my "lectures" were me venting my fears about the worst case scenario. I'm speaking as fast as I can trying to explain why it bothers me, and it just sounds like I'm trying to educate MT. I'm sure it was very upsetting to MT to feel like I was telling her that she didn't understand why it is important to pay your bills.

Well, I've worked on that and I've changed that. I try to make a point that if something needs to be done, and I know I won't be satisfied if it is not done a certain way, I do it myself.

If MT offers to take care of something, I let her do it, and for the most part (I still struggle with this a little) I try to stay out of her way and let her get it done how she wants to.

Oh, and I've never resorted to baby talk or talking slowly.

I got a chuckle out of your tax example. MT and I have filed taxes late for years (with an extension, but late). MT would always handle this and I would nag and nag, etc. Last year, I said to MT lets just do them ourselves and it worked out pretty good. So, lesson learned.

Anyway, I liked your advice on how to handle that, and will try to incorporate that kind of behavior.

Let me dig a little deeper on that. I have tried variations of that approach in the past. But usually, MT has refused that offer (for various reasons) and said don't worry, I'll take care of it tommorrow. Sometimes, she does in fact do this, but other times, it doesn't happen tommorrow, or the next day, etc. I'm not saying this to bash MT, I know she is busy and I know she is doing something for us, and point of fact it usually, eventually gets done. And usually there is no harm. Ok, so MT was right and I shouldn't get bent out of shape about it.

The catch is, I'm not wired that way. On some things, not everything, but some, it matters to me if its done on time. When things aren't done, it stresses me, I lose sleep over it, I get anxious over it. I think some things, like filing taxes, should do that to people. Eventually, it builds up and I explode. I don't mean I yell or scream, I mean eventually I feel the compelling need to tell MT that it matters to me. If I do that, she never says "Oh it shouldn't matter", but still the next day or next couple of days if its still not done, my brain says, "gosh, I told her it matters to me, maybe she doesn't understand why". Then I feel the need to explain why it matters to me. And that just comes accross as if I'm trying to educate her. And I've tried every way possible to have that kind of talk in loving, non DJ to a hard talk kind of way. No success.

I'm basically and under commit, over deliver kind of person. MT is basically a over commit, under deliver person. Please note, I don't say that about MT to imply she does not do a lot. She does a tremendous amount. She will just commit to more than any three people could get done. This just doesn't mix well, cause I let MT committ to every thing, I do a few things, and then proceed to coach MT on how to do the things she needs to do, which is immpossible for her to accomplish.

So I want this to be more balanced. I want to committ the right amount and deliver the right amount. Logically, this would allow MT to committ to all she wants, but lessen the load, (since I'm taking on some stuff), so she can also deliver the right amount.

Let me ask the question a different way. Do you feel your S was ever justified in "micro managing" you. Let's take your car example. You said you appreciated the way she handled it. What if the next time the car broke you refused to let her take it to the shop and the same thing happened. Would you have been okay with an "I told you so" What if it happened a third time, or a fourth time. How would you propose she say to you, look you can't fix the car, I need the car, I don't have time to wait. What if you said, no really, I can do it this time. Would she then have had the right to micro manage? She has to have the car, your dead set on trying to fix it yourself, she knows you can't. How does she have that conversation with you without making you feel like she's treating you like a child?

I'm not saying you would do this. I'm just saying if your S was in this sitch, how would you like them to handle it.

If she approached it like you stated it, I would feel disrespected and devalued...not supported.

She NEVER has the right to micro-manage. If she EVER said "look, you can't fix the car and I can't wait", I'd tell her to kiss my butt and solve her own damn car problems. By behaving in the above manner, you set up a sitch in which I'm going to PROVE to you I can do it if it takes 20 tries to do it.

By continuing to be supportive, I'm more likely to conclude on my own that there are things better left to the mechanic.

BTW, if you love and respect your spouse, you never really know that they "can't". That's paternalistic and disrespectful. It is discouraging. It is treating them like a child.

A better approach would be to discuss how to deal with transport problems while I repair the car. I think that's a legitimate concern. Ask for ideas on how to solve this.

For example: "Hon, do you think you can have the car fixed by Monday?" is far preferable to "I'm taking the car to the shop because I know you can't get it done by Monday." You see one tells your spouse you know they can do it, the other tells them you don't think they are capable.

You can NEVER let your enthusiastic spouse think that you don't have faith in them...that you don't believe in them. believing in and supporting them IS ONE OF YOUR PRIMARY JOBS AS A SPOUSE.

Give your wife more credit. If you respect her intelligence and make it safe for her to be wrong sometimes, she won't have to prove anything to you.

I thought of a good test. Think of a good male friend that you respect. How would you treat him in a simlar situation? Would you seek to preserve his diginity? Would be be concerned about hurting his feelings?

You wife deserves no less.

Interesting thread RP and LO.

RP - same problem. I had little patience with my W - saw her for what she did - or did not do - and not for who she was. Terrible, terrible, terrible.

I would get bent out of shape when she didn't line the rear view mirror up with the tennis ball in the garage. And I would get equally upset when she didn't file an important piece of paperwork that had critical financial implications.

So I'm learning to breathe and live with dings in the car door. Still have a problem with critical paperwork but I'm coming around to that too. And understanding that there are things I can do to make it easier for W to park the car and file the paperwork.

LO - you make some great points, esp. about believing in and supporting your spouse being a primary responsibility. There is a point where your partner is well served by a loving and gentile reminder that this is the 4th time you've tried to fix the car with no success and do you think it would be a good idea to take it to the shop? Might be less stressful on you??

My W does this for me and I'm glad she does. What she is good at that I am not - getting better - is making me feel supported AS she's grounding me back in reality. That is a true gift and one of the reasons why I love her. I always feel supported by my W but do not feel as if she blindly supports me to the point of impracticality. She's no pushover.

Low -

I think on some of your points, you are asking one S to sacrifice in order to be supportive of the other.

I realize we are using hyperbole to illustrate a point, but when you say, you would try to prove it even if it takes 20 times, isn't that totally disregarding your S's needs?

To me this all comes down to the rule of protection. Avoid being the cause of your S's unhappiness. Its your job to protect your S and vice versa. It seems the way you lay it out, your expectation is that your S should have 100% faith that you are going to protect her, and turn off her own survival instincts. Yet, you are unwilling to do the same. If her actions convey that she is not protecting your feelings, then you will respond in kind.

Am I reading that correctly?

Are you saying that the solution is for her to give over the 100% faith in you, regardless of prior results, or her opinion about future success. Be supportive and loving in the face of any and all adversity, and suspend her desire to protect herself. And you offer her no contingency plan.

If yes, that seems unfair, since you have a contingency plan and imply that you will not suspend your desire to protect yourself, if she fails to protect you?

I would assume you don't really think that way.

I get the point about support. Please don't take my examples as real life situations. These are just hyperbole. I don't tell my FWW she can't accomplish something, and I've learned a lot in the past few months.

So back to the original question in a more esoteric form. When your W feels that you are failing to protect and care for her (as in the MB rule of protection and the MB rule of care), how do you propose she bring this up. (i.e. deciding to try to fix the car yourself for the 20th time, might make her unhappy) I have always assumed the best way to do that is to say here's what I'm feeling, here's what is not happening, here's what I would like to have happen. Yet for many, that comes across as controlling, micro-managing, a failure to follow the rule of protection, etc.

Low, I re-read my post and I didn't want it to sound harsh.

Let me explain why I'm picking at this.

I posted this on another thread, but this is basically the reason I'm asking the questions.

Suffice it to say, that recently my FWW has been really kicking butt in this regard and has truly stepped up. Its why I'm interested in the topic because I really don't want to screw up and get the balance going the wrong way.

I don't have any specifics in mind, but what if there is this little thing that I am unhappy about. How do I bring that up, do I bring it up. I really don't to screw that up and have my FWW, kind of say, jeez I been doing all this stuff and he still is parenting me.